Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

Onikage · 22-07-2008 4:51pm

Hi J, as the sole representitive of Boxer posting here how do you intend to compete with free satellite which offers 90% of what is available on your lowest package?

DTTfan · 22-07-2008 5:03pm

Onikage wrote: »

Hi J, as the sole representitive of Boxer posting here how do you intend to compete with free satellite which offers 90% of what is available on your lowest package?

Well what can i say to that, if i was the sole representitive of Boxer which maybe i am as i havent seen anyone else, anyway where was i , how could they compete with free to air , they cant, if i wanted to see a Mars bar and Mr smith down the raod was giving them away for free id be out of business. this is a strange country, we all know what goes on and how things can change, people used to say they would never pay for sky, they did, they said they would never pay to watch Man U, they do, so why not pay for a decent reliable television service. Of course you are going to get those who will get the freeview boxes and those others who will get the cable scramblers and poach off the cable, what can we do, nothing. Business wasnt meant to be easy, and in this case it will be difficult.

what would you suggest??? would you pay for DTT ? would you pay the basic 9.99 or go to the next level, maybe add a top up every few months.

I cant answer for Boxer, but i look forward to seeing thier finial line up and offering, who knows what else we will get.

cheers
j

Elmo · 22-07-2008 5:23pm

I cant answer for Boxer, but i look forward to seeing thier finial line up and offering, who knows what else we will get.

Surely what they have put in the application is the final offer for the moment.

I have to agree with you J, no matter who got this licence everyone here (including myself) wouldn't have been happy.

All 3 applicants bullied the BCI into only one licence instead of 3.

Boxer aren't providing anything new, I cann't see the market for this product. I think that it is time someone marketed Freesat in Ireland with DTT Ireland from RTE, TV3, TG4, OTV, IFB and who ever else is willing to provide free Irish services to Ireland. Because from what I can see that is what Boxer is providing viewers with. But then all applicant suggest the same.

what would you suggest??? would you pay for DTT ? would you pay the basic 9.99 or go to the next level, maybe add a top up every few months.

No I wouldn't pay the basic 9.99 why because I couldn't be bothered to change operator (Many people are like that). I am happy with UPC even their dreadful customer care (but fortunately for me I rarely have to call them). But then I only have UPC because I like their broadband and phone package.

Boxer will have a battle to fight in the main urban areas to get people to go with their DTT.

By the way RTE 1, RTE 2, RTE 3, RTE 1+1, TV3, TG4, OTV and IFB Channel will not be part of the basic 9.99 package they are FREE.

This will mean that the following will be an extra 9.99 per month BBC 1, BBC 2, C4, UTV, Discovery, Eurosport and BBC News 24.

7 EXTRA CHANNELS FOR 9.99 that is madness. IMO.

Any mention of Channel 6 in the basic package?

Reception so far with RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3 and TG4 on DTT has been perfect for me with an indoor ariel in an upstairs bedroom. No settop box required.

watty · 22-07-2008 5:39pm

UPC today passing almost 62% of homes and spending millions on Broadband enabling and Digital Distribution is a completely different product to the 20 years of neglect and under-investment of a succession of cable operators in various cities with mostly a rubbish analogue service.

The Boxer line is unimaginative. It's only of interest outside cable areas where people are more prepared to have a Dish. With an Aerial + Dish and no subscription and a combo DTT/Sat box (or two separate boxes) you get nearly 50 quality TV and over 20 quality radio including all the Irish and main UK channels, free.

The PSB / RTE Mux is not part of Boxer.

DTTfan · 22-07-2008 5:42pm

Elmo wrote: »

Surely what they have put in the application is the final offer for the moment.

I have to agree with you J, no matter who got this licence everyone here (including myself) wouldn't have been happy.

All 3 applicants bullied the BCI into only one licence instead of 3.

Boxer aren't providing anything new, I cann't see the market for this product. I think that it is time someone marketed Freesat in Ireland with DTT Ireland from RTE, TV3, TG4, OTV, IFB and who ever else is willing to provide free Irish services to Ireland. Because from what I can see that is what Boxer is providing viewers with. But then all applicant suggest the same.

No I wouldn't pay the basic 9.99 why because I couldn't be bothered to change operator (Many people are like that). I am happy with UPC even their dreadful customer care (but fortunately for me I rarely have to call them). But then I only have UPC because I like their broadband and phone package.

Boxer will have a battle to fight in the main urban areas to get people to go with their DTT.

By the way RTE 1, RTE 2, RTE 3, RTE 1+1, TV3, TG4, OTV and IFB Channel will not be part of the basic 9.99 package they are FREE.

This will mean that the following will be an extra 9.99 per month BBC 1, BBC 2, C4, UTV, Discovery, Eurosport and BBC News 24.

7 EXTRA CHANNELS FOR 9.99 that is madness. IMO.

Any mention of Channel 6, Setanta Sports in the basic package?

Well at least we are not getting TV3 news 24 and Expose 24, that would have been hell, as for Setanta and Channel 6, I suppose its down to discussion between Boxer and setanta, Channel 6 as it is, is having enough trouble with Sky trying to get placed higher up in the program guide, but you never know,

Even though the proposal stated what channels would be available, Boxer and BCI still have a few months hammering out a few bits and pieces yet so i wouldnt be surprised, sure I am sure we can all hold our breath a little bit longer.

My opinon is purely mine, i may be a Boxer fan, i like the name anyway but i thought they were the strongest of the lot even if most of what was offered by all 3 was similarish!!

j

Elmo · 22-07-2008 5:46pm

Well at least we are not getting TV3 news 24 and Expose 24, that would have been hell, as for Setanta and Channel 6, I suppose its down to discussion between Boxer and setanta, Channel 6 as it is, is having enough trouble with Sky trying to get placed higher up in the program guide, but you never know,

There is nothing to suggest that the BCI won't force Boxer to provide positions for channels licenced by the BCI. There is nothing to suggest that TV3 won't be awarded 3TODAY and 3XPOSE when the renegociated the terms of their contract in the coming months.

DTTfan · 22-07-2008 5:47pm

watty wrote: »

UPC today passing almost 62% of homes and spending millions on Broadband enabling and Digital Distribution is a completely different product to the 20 years of neglect and under-investment of a succession of cable operators in various cities with mostly a rubbish analogue service.

The Boxer line is unimaginative. It's only of interest outside cable areas where people are more prepared to have a Dish. With an Aerial + Dish and no subscription and a combo DTT/Sat box (or two separate boxes) you get nearly 50 quality TV and over 20 quality radio including all the Irish and main UK channels, free.

The PSB / RTE Mux is not part of Boxer.

Were the other 2 applicants also unimaginative as well, all packages were the same , we even would have got TV3 News 24 hours a day, and Expose, Wow, i wish i could have got that, One day they will start repeating the news like every other program the have.

Seriously though what will be will be, nobody is going to be happy all of the time and even though i have an interest in the system i will not be changing my current supplier but i might use DTT when traveling, it has so many applications outside of the home enviroment.

DTTfan · 22-07-2008 5:53pm

Elmo wrote: »

There is nothing to suggest that the BCI won't force Boxer to provide positions for channels licenced by the BCI. There is nothing to suggest that TV3 won't be awarded 3TODAY and 3XPOSE when the renegociated the terms of their contract in the coming months.

The BCI may inforce certain sanctions to the channel line up, and it will be up to Boxer to identify what the consumers want, if TV3 news 24 or Expose 24 for example were part of the free mux well then thats fine, but if i was to pay for them , i wouldnt pay. I may sound like im picking on TV3 , well to be honest i am, again my opinion.

i am sure that between the BCI and Boxer DTT they will provide a service that contains channels that people want, i think that the beauty of the Boxer set up is that you can pick and choose what you want to view, by topping up. For most of us who have a current supplier , i doupt many of us will change, but for those out there in rabbit ear land they may have only 2 choices, sky or DTT.

Elmo · 22-07-2008 6:04pm

Were the other 2 applicants also unimaginative as well, all packages were the same , we even would have got TV3 News 24 hours a day, and Expose, Wow, i wish i could have got that, One day they will start repeating the news like every other program the have.

Those on boards will be happy to point out how if OneVision had got the licence I would be even more angry at the discission. I hate the idea of TV3 getting any more TV services.

I agree with you that if TV3 do get extra channel they won't be on the Pay packages, even if OneVision had won the licence TV3's extra channel would be quickly given as part of the FTA to gain more viewers.

TV3 could always buy a slot on the boxer muxs and boxer could give them to viewers for free, just in the same way TV3 and TG4 pay to be on RTENL.

i am sure that between the BCI and Boxer DTT they will provide a service that contains channels that people want, i think that the beauty of the Boxer set up is that you can pick and choose what you want to view, by topping up. For most of us who have a current supplier , i doupt many of us will change, but for those out there in rabbit ear land they may have only 2 choices, sky or DTT.

I don't really get the pick an choose. they have 3 options without contract??? or can you take the basic package and the sports package or would you have to take the basic, additional service plus the sports package??? Could you get the FTA services and the sport/movie package only?

You also have the choice of get a free to air satellite, which will give you all of the BBC, ITV and C4 channels for Free, as will sky digital, plus your FTA settop box for the extra Irish channels.

Also if you are in a part of the country where sky is your only option then you will be the last to see Boxer.

From boxer.ie

The 12 year licence will enable Boxer to operate three multiplexes (broadcasting networks) providing about 30 channels of crystal clear digital TV through existing roof top aerials. The service will debut in major cities and coverage will be extended to the whole country by 2012, when current analogue TV signals are likely to be phased out.

pa990 · 22-07-2008 6:11pm

weehamster wrote: »

Here are coverage maps that were submitted with Boxers application;
2Q - 2009
3Q - 2009
3Q - 2010
3Q - 2011
4Q - 2012
1Q - 2013

hmmm.. looks like i wont have coverage .. ever

watty · 22-07-2008 6:15pm

Those are 2 story house optimistic Chimney Aerial coverage plots

61dBuV @ 10m AGL

Real coverage could be 75% less.

Elmo · 22-07-2008 6:16pm

And the problem with these maps is that those who need choice won't get it until 2013 by which time Boxer will have gone bankrupt by trying to win over customers who don't need DTT. Instead of going after people who don't have even have a good analogue reception.

pa990 · 22-07-2008 6:17pm

watty wrote: »

Those are 2 story house optimistic Chimney Aerial coverage plots

61dBuV @ 10m AGL

Real coverage could be 75% less.

ARRRGGHH... i have a two story house .. and i was very optimistic

DTTfan · 22-07-2008 6:22pm

Elmo wrote: »

Those on boards will be happy to point out how if OneVision had got the licence I would be even more angry at the discission. I hate the idea of TV3 getting any more TV services.

I agree with you that if TV3 do get extra channel they won't be on the Pay packages, even if OneVision had won the licence TV3's extra channel would be quickly given as part of the FTA to gain more viewers.

TV3 could always buy a slot on the boxer muxs and boxer could give them to viewers for free, just in the same way TV3 and TG4 pay to be on RTENL.

I don't really get the pick an choose. they have 3 options without contract??? or can you take the basic package and the sports package or would you have to take the basic, additional service plus the sports package??? Could you get the FTA services and the sport/movie package only?

You also have the choice of get a free to air satellite, which will give you all of the BBC, ITV and C4 channels for Free, as will sky digital, plus your FTA settop box for the extra Irish channels.

Also if you are in a part of the country where sky is your only option then you will be the last to see Boxer.

From my understanding of the pick and choose option it goes like this, ( and i am subject to any critsim as i may not be 100% right)
If you buy the basic package 9.99, you have the option of topping up that option with whatever channels you want on top of it, so if you get say 9 channels on the basic you could ass sky movies, maybe sky sports one or some other option and the cost would be extra per channel,, I hope i am right, i did read it in the document somewhere.

When the roll out hits the whole country there are homes out there who do not want a satalite dish stuck on the side of their homes and would prefer something much smaller.

i personnally have a small antenna about 6 inches tall that i can put on top of my tv, and when i turn my dtt decoder on i get crystal clear pictures of the current trial offerings.

J

watty · 22-07-2008 6:24pm

Elmo wrote: »

There is nothing to suggest that the BCI won't force Boxer to provide positions for channels licenced by the BCI. There is nothing to suggest that TV3 won't be awarded 3TODAY and 3XPOSE when the renegociated the terms of their contract in the coming months.

It will be up to TV3 to persuade the operator to carry... Like Satellite, GOOD channels the operator will pay the provider, rubbish ego/advert stuff, the provider will have to pay to get carried. Some channels are neutral (e.g. BBC World TV is usually Free to Carry(though needs agreement) and an Operator might want it). FTA channels to the public on Satellite or other Terrestrial platforms are mostly not free for an operator to carry. Channels can be a fixed royalty of reasonable level (BBC TV carried by an Irish Operator), paid for on number of audited customers and expensive (Sky Sports), or paid for per audited number of customers that view (PPV from customer perspective). Discovery, Disney, Sky1 are Moderately Expensive. I'd ask to be paid to carry Living, C6, Sky3 ... Obviously QVC et al don't get free carriage anywhere

Only a minimum of channels (on the PSB mux only) will be must carry. The 3 commercial mux will have no must carry, though BCI can block what it deems unsuitable content.

Must Carry Channels = RTE's PSB Mux

3x Commercial Mux: Operator has licence and make own commercial decisions. BCI only have power of veto and have to explain why the content is forbidden.

Yes all the proposals are poor commercially, and unimaginative generally*, only good set of 4 all free Mux with the main UK channels and some new Irish channels has potential to get DTT of the ground quickly. Then after analogue switch off add 4 more Mux all pay TV then.

(* for commercial reasons I won't say what I DO deem to be an imaginative line up

_

pa990 · 22-07-2008 6:25pm

i can see boxer being attractive for pubs wanting to show sky sports (on the cheap)

Elmo · 22-07-2008 6:31pm

If you buy the basic package 9.99, you have the option of topping up that option with whatever channels you want on top of it, so if you get say 9 channels on the basic you could ass sky movies, maybe sky sports one or some other option and the cost would be extra per channel,, I hope i am right, i did read it in the document somewhere.

So you have to be signed up for 12 months on the basic package before you can pick and choose?

It's good that you can get the RTE Trails but AFAIK boxer will be setting up their own network. Unlike Onevision and EasyTV who would update RTE's current network. Which is what you get the trial from.

The 3 commercial mux will have no must carry, though BCI can block what it deems unsuitable content.

There should be some must carry so that more companies can get into the market. There is no research to suggest that an Irish channel wouldn't be more popular then a dissy English one. Channel Six is preforming will on the Trail the trial gave them a boost to their audience.

reslfj · 22-07-2008 6:41pm

DTTfan wrote: »

From what i know Boxer have the latest boxes Mpg4, so you can either get a boxer direct from Boxer or thier listed agents ( DID, Currys etc) or when you buy a new TV you will only have to insert the card into the slot, thats my understanding but hey who am I to comment.
J

In Sweden ASO was in October 2007 and everything is currently transmitted DVB-T/MPEG-2 encoded. A new multiplex - Nät6 - will open next year and all new channels must use MPEG-4. The licenses to these new channels are issued to the channel owners directly and not to Boxer.

All existing - 'Boxer channels' - must migrate to MPEG-4 within the next 5-6 years.

The SVT - the state owned PSB - has one multiplex and is not licensed like the other channels - e.g. they may use MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 as they like.
SVT is however expected to move to MPEG-4 sometime in the future.

In Sweden a new VHF multiplex will start after October 2009, maybe into 2010.
New technology - likely DVB-T2 - will be used on this VHF multiplex to provide capacity for HDTV.
How these HDTV channels will be licensed and to whom is unknown. I expect SVT to get capacity for at least one HD Service.

In Denmark, Boxer has a 12 years license for 4 multiplexes - 3 TV and one DVB-H mobile-TV.

ASO will be November 1. 2009 country-wide. I addition to the Boxertv.dk multiplexes, the public service Broadcaster 'Danmarks Radio'-- DR - currently operate one FTA MPEG-2 multiplex for itself and the only other public service broadcaster - TV2 Danmark.
DR will get one additional FTA multiplex at ASO.

Alle the new multiplexes - one DR MUX and 3 Boxer MUXes - must use MPEG-4. The present DR MPEG-2 MUX will change to MPEG-4 in 2012.

Presently the plan is to use DVB-T at 19.91 Mbps per multiplex. DVB-T2 was 'unknown' when Boxer got there license in Martz this year.

Boxer will transmit 29 MPEG-4 SD services on its 3 multiplexes - most will be encrypted pay-TV. Note that each multiplex in Denmark and Sweden has 2-4 Mbps less capacity than the will have in Ireland due to the overhead of using DVB-T in SFN mode - (Single Frequency Network) Even with MPEG-4 the bit-rate will not be great for 10 SD services,

DR has plans for a DR-HD service in 2012 - but the timing may change both ways. There are currently no other HDTV DTT plans in Denmark.

Boxer.se is testing all Boxes, but they are sold from normal shops in Sweden. From April 1. this year only MPEG-4 boxes are accepted for new tests by Boxer. (I think, they require MPEG-4 HP @ L4 = HD - even though no HD licenses will be issued until the Swedish VHF multiplex starts). Boxertv.dk has not yet approved any boxes for Denmark.

Lars

scath · 22-07-2008 6:50pm

I'm abit unclear, are Boxer to build their own network or rent RTÉ NL's?

I suspect now that TV3 lost out that they'll add their two proposed channels on the RTÉ Mux. Why wouldn' they as they're ad opportunites. They go behind subscription and reduce advertising reach so I'd say the RTÉ mux. They've said as much without saying what if they lost. People will want choice from FTA now digital is here. I'd say Channel 6 will be re-branded as 3 Expose and 3 News and RTÉ News now and RTÉ 3 will go up.

That'd be, RTE1, 2, 3, 4, RTE News Now, TV3, 3Today, 3 Expose, OTV, IFC. If two availabe EUTV (when it comes (Europarl etc-is need for as OTV should cover C-Span etc), Euronews. I'm not in favour of +1s, poor use of spectrum VOD should do that with the ASO mux along with Higher Education ODL subscription channels due to greater coverage. Nice use of spectrum and return on mux 2

irishgeo · 22-07-2008 6:59pm

q3 2010 for mayo :rolleyes:

i got dtt built into my tv, will i be able to se that to pick this up. my tv got a CAM slot as well.

scath · 22-07-2008 7:14pm

Did you see http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Frequent+Questions/ ?

Has your TV got MPEG4 written anywhere?

If not take it back if you bought recently and tell them they sold you a dud. If it was last year, then not their fault. They didn't know. Was only decided in February 08. Then you'd need a set top box.

The Irish video encoding standard that UK don't yet have as there's is 10 yrs old so your TV may have the older UK one ad not the newer one that we won't be using. MPEG4 uses less capacity of the muxes. If it has, you will. You read http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/080220.pdf to see for your area, so Q3 2010. Your cam slot can take the Boxer card when launched so you'll be able to use it if your TV has MPEG4.

These are the likely line up though except for Euronews and EUTV. These 2 I'd like to see. Dunno what the mux max is, 10 or 12 channels...

irishgeo wrote: »

q3 2010 for mayo :rolleyes:

i got dtt built into my tv, will i be able to se that to pick this up. my tv got a CAM slot as well.

Sponge Bob · 22-07-2008 7:20pm

Elmo wrote: »

hate the idea of TV3 getting any more TV services.

But TV3 can ask the Minister for an order putting them in a slot on RTE muxes and I assume they will now boxer have won.

The Boxer €9.99 package will give me 2 Channels • Discovery and • Eurosport that are not FTA on Astra or FTA on DTT .

Their €22.99 package gives me max 8 channels I do not/will not have for free.

I would not get rid of the sat because I watch Film4 + 1 as often as Film 4

DTTfan wrote: »

I agree with you that if TV3 do get extra channel they won't be on the Pay packages, even if OneVision had won the licence TV3's extra channel would be quickly given as part of the FTA to gain more viewers.

TV3 could always buy a slot on the boxer muxs and boxer could give them to viewers for free, just in the same way TV3 and TG4 pay to be on RTENL.

Umm , quite so indeed

.....to all that

DTTFAN wrote: »

don't really get the pick an choose. they have 3 options without contract??? or can you take the basic package and the sports package or would you have to take the basic, additional service plus the sports package??? Could you get the FTA services and the sport/movie package only?

I take it you may buy one month at a time but I dunno.

DTTFAN wrote: »

You also have the choice of get a free to air satellite, which will give you all of the BBC, ITV and C4 channels for Free, as will sky digital, plus your FTA settop box for the extra Irish channels.

Exactly , and I would think that half their target market can do this already .

When the roll out hits the whole country there are homes out there who do not want a satalite dish stuck on the side of their homes and would prefer something much smaller.

Like a UHF antenna on a 3m pole on the chimney like

DTTFAN wrote: »

I personally have a small antenna about 6 inches tall that i can put on top of my tv, and when i turn my dtt decoder on i get crystal clear pictures of the current trial offerings.

This rabbit ear solution only applies to the urban 40% of the population or so . Everyone else will need an aerial ....or already has a sat dish remember

reslfj · 22-07-2008 7:49pm

scath wrote: »

Did you see Has your TV got MPEG4 written anywhere?

If it has MPEG-4 written somewhere it will likely be able to receive the DTT SDTV channels - but should there be any HDTV channels in the future then it must be labeled MPEG-4 HP @ L4 ( MPEG-4 High Profile Level 4 - or higher).

I Norway all DTT is currently SDTV using MPEG-4 and MP @ L3 can decompress SDTV.

But during the Olympic next month there are plans for shutting some program channels and show a little HDTV from China.

The MP @ L3 only (SDTV only) set's will no be on the market very much longer, but Ireland should NOT be a dumping ground for outdated MPEG-4 models - should it ?

Lars

Zaphod · 22-07-2008 7:51pm

Could we arrange a whip around to take the combined boards of the BCI and Comreg on a bus trip to the Cliffs of Moher?

And then "forget" to engage the handbrake ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzrIBut8Fo8

scath · 22-07-2008 8:14pm

Hehe. Great bit of humour to lighten the mood! Man Zapod.

Zaphod wrote: »

Could we arrange a whip around to take the combined boards of the BCI and Comreg on a bus trip to the Cliffs of Moher?

And then "forget" to engage the handbrake ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzrIBut8Fo8

channelsurfer · 22-07-2008 8:21pm

matt cooper had an article on it today.. (communicorp owns today fm for those that dont know). He made an awful balls of his introduction by saying that you will no longer be able to use an aerial from 2012 to receive tv services.

it is available to listen to on the today fm website. overall he was quite knowledgable on it.

watty · 22-07-2008 9:47pm

Of the 40% that can use "rabbit ears" about 1/2 won't use them as they have UPC already.

The 3 Commercial Muxes don't exist.

Boxer has to pay someone RTENL or another to install them
Boxer has to pay RTE NL rent on mast and buildings no matter who they buy the gear off.
Boxer has to install or rent terrestrial feed or satellite dedicated feed to the transmitter sites (RTENL has only installed capacity for the PSB mux).

RTE NL may make more profit than Boxer as they have to be paid the same no matter how many customers there are. If Boxer don't get enough customers they will lose money on running costs of electricity, mast/site rental and feed rental or more years till the break even on the capital costs, never mind subscriber related content costs

rlogue · 22-07-2008 10:08pm

Hmmm...one four letter word no one has used in this thread yet - MMDS.

Assuming the Boxer rollout cracks on, why would there be a need for a commercial MMDS service?

watty · 22-07-2008 10:28pm

MMDS does 120 channels in MPEG2, or 250 in MPEG4. Or potentially say 20 HD channels and 120 SD channels all MPEG4
Someone already has 186k subscribers outside of cable areas (which is 62% of households).

The 80% population coverage of 13 sites (initially Boxer seems to be doing 7) entirely covers Cable areas thus only 18% of population gets the 13 site DTT than hasn't got cable...
That's about 250k households only is a major market for DTT. Sky has already 450k, so they have a lot of customers in cabled areas.

I'm not a fan of Chorus MMDS (esp the Analogue version), but it's called competition.

I think the Digital Only DVb-c version of ex NTL MMDS is rather better.

FreeSat/FTA removes need for MMDS, never mind Sky. Similar size dish. I can't see that DTT more removes the need. Perhaps Sky will launch a 16 channel package for €8.99

They don't pay anything for the 4 Irish channels or C6.
BBC & ITV & C4 is inexpensive for Sky (oddly Sky do pay BBC for Irish EPG and BBC pays then for UK EPG even though it's FTA, there is a logic to it),
RTE1, 2 TV3, TG4, C6
Sky1, 2 & 3
BBC1,2,3,4
ITV1,2,3
SkyNews

DMC · 22-07-2008 10:45pm

Haven't had much time to read all the comments here nor time to post fully all of what I want , but my first thoughts are....

Oh dear.

As pointed out by some applicatants, DTT is ideal for those who will be without BBC and ITV via analogue aerials from the north and wales after UK DSO. And what multichannel viewing will they get? A compendium channel from both BBC and ITV?

Doomed.

And in response to Zaphod...
Some previous Swedish experience at cooking something for a domestic audience...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbs64GvGgPU

barnicles · 22-07-2008 10:54pm

I agree DMC. Tis doomed i tell ya.

Mayo Exile · 22-07-2008 11:51pm

Tried to collate all the views expressed so far into still life as wacky videos are already here...........?????!!!!!!!!

watty · 23-07-2008 12:49pm

The basic Boxer lineup is not that bad. It just should be free.

Nielsen Irish figures (I know it doesn't add to 100%, it's the % time a viewer spends on average on a channel, not the % viewers the channel has.)

Channel %
RTE1 25
TV3 14
RTE2 13
BBC1 5
UTV 3
BBC2 1.5
TG4 1.5
SkyOne 1
SkySport1 1
SkySport2 0.5
Setanta 0.5
C6 0.6

All Sky/Murdoch channels 5% (inc Sky News, Sky1 etc...)

All minnow Satellite 25% (Excluding Nickelodeon, Paramount etc) These have however each less than 0.1% audience. So everyone watches a different few of these tiny specialist (over 600 ) channels.

slegs · 23-07-2008 1:08pm

The only people who will pay Boxer 9.99 are those who arent clued in enough to realise that a FTA DTT/Freesat combo gives you 95% the same package with no monthly cost. (and has some more choice in certain areas)

This are not enough stupid people out there for Boxer to make a viable business. Their higher value packages wont be able to compete with Sky.

Its doomed.

pa990 · 23-07-2008 1:53pm

we all know about the failure of on.digital /itv digital, the failures in spain, boxer's slow start up in sweden, and the dtt failure in australia.. The uk, spain and australia all went with a mostly freeview system.. But what about other countrie's .. What countrie's have had a successful pay dtt service ? ?

watty · 23-07-2008 2:09pm

To early to say on the French TNT.

I'd suspect the Berlin DTT (1st Analogue switch off in Germany) is mostly/all FTA since the German Satellite PayTV struggles. That's why most German Sat TV is free, they won't pay.

There is no comparable situation elsewhere, where almost all the channels are imported and the two main Pay TV operators already near 50% households each (some people have both) and ALL the most popular channels apart from the 4 Irish ones are free on Satellite. Canada might be the closest match as they watch USA TV.

There are three separate indexes:
1) % average market a channel has as a Pay TV option. Apart from Premium Sports and Movies the packages are too big.
2) % time people watch a channel. Sky Sports maybe be very precious to those that have it, but it's only 1% of their viewing time.
3) % Average viewers a Channel has. People may spend 25% of Satellite viewing time (item 2) watching a channel that has less than 0.1% viewers! Hence all (600) minority channels added together may be 25% of total viewing time, a particular viewer may only watch the same handful.

People may watch pre-recorded (DVDs, downloads, VHS) over 40% of time now due to number of back catalogue releases, Tv series releases and lack of current TV quality.

In the UK Sky has seen revenues and customer base rise and yet market share fall to half of what it was some years ago since DTT became free. Headwrecking

pa990 · 23-07-2008 2:52pm

i presume boxer have been successful in sweden, and are hoping for success in denmark and ireland..

I'd love to see dtt up and running sooner than later, but preferably as a freeview platform to compliment a freesat setup

(i can see boxer getting a lot of domestic subscription's , for use in pub's and clubs. As it would be cheaper for the pub's for sky sports subscription)

[written on a mobile device]

Elmo · 23-07-2008 3:31pm

(i can see boxer getting a lot of domestic subscription's , for use in pub's and clubs. As it would be cheaper for the pub's for sky sports subscription)

They still have to get an agreement from sky before their sports/movie packages are available. Sky could ask Boxer to pay a fortune for those Pay services Or could lock Boxer into an agreement which may not be worthwhile for the consumer. I.e. Sky channels instead of VirginMedia or UKTV or Setanta channels e.g. sky one, two, three, sky news, sky arts, sky sports news etc.

i presume boxer have been successful in sweden, and are hoping for success in denmark and ireland.

MMMMMMMM.... well...... Boxer are currently being taken to court in Europe because they are the only DTT company available to customers (RTENL would be a competitor here in Ireland, and I am pulling at straws with that). Many people in sweden feel that the only reason that Boxer has been successful is because of ASO (Analogue Switch Off) hence they have gained loads of customers but it is felt that they only did that because of ASO which could be considered as state intervention because the state part own Boxer.

So boxer doesn't have a great reputation in their home country.

Nielsen Irish figures (I know it doesn't add to 100%, it's the % time a viewer spends on average on a channel, not the % viewers the channel has.)

Those figure seem very low for BBC 1 and UTV perhaps TG4 where did you get them from. The figures are probably market share. What happened to C4?

watty · 23-07-2008 4:35pm

They are not market share.

It's the average time of % viewing time a viewer views it. From Independent quoting Nielsen.

The paper didn't mention c4. I expect they are between UTV and BBC2

I have also the UK "BARB" figures for May & Jun this year (we don't use BARB here). A reasonable guide for Dublin Sky /UPC viewers excluding the 4 main Irish channels.

All here http://www.barb.co.uk/index1.cfm

watty · 23-07-2008 4:38pm

Actual Average % viewers May/June
(Measured differently method entirely to Nielsen, and different presentation)

UK viewing %.  On Satellite
Channel	%	
BBC 1 (incl. Brkfast News)	20.55	
ITV (incl. GMTV)	17.6	
CHANNEL 4/S4C	7.1	
BBC 2	7.05	
five	4.55	
Total Sky Sports	2.35	
ITV 2	2	
ITV 3	1.6	
Cbeebies	1.3	
Total Sky Movies	1.3	
BBC 3	1.2	
E4	1.15	
Sky Sports 1	1.15	
Dave	1	
Sky One	1	
ITV 4	0.9	
More4	0.9	
Film4	0.85	
BBC News	0.75	
Channel 4+1	0.75	
Sky Three	0.7	
five US	0.6	
UKTV Gold	0.6	
E4 +1	0.55	
fiver	0.55	
Living TV	0.55	
Virgin1	0.55	
BBC 4	0.5	
CBBC	0.5	
Disney Channel	0.5	
Hallmark	0.5	
ITV 2 +1	0.45	
Sky Sports News	0.45	
Nick Jr	0.4	
Sky News	0.4	
Sky Sports 2	0.4	
Sky Two	0.4	
CITV	0.35	
Living TV +1	0.35	
UKTV Drama	0.35	
UKTV Gold +1	0.35	
Disney Channel +1	0.3	
Nickelodeon	0.3	
Paramount Comedy	0.3	
The Hits	0.3	
UKTV History	0.3	
Cartoon Network	0.25	
Eurosport	0.25	
Playhouse Disney	0.25	
Sci-Fi Channel	0.25	
TMF	0.25	
Bravo	0.2	
Cartoon Network Too	0.2	
Challenge TV	0.2	
Crime & Investigation	0.2	
Discovery	0.2	
Film4 +1	0.2	
FX	0.2	
Living TV 2	0.2	
Nick Jr 2	0.2	
Nickelodeon Replay	0.2	
Nicktoons	0.2	
Paramount Comedy +1	0.2	
Sky Movies Premiere	0.2	
Sky Sports 3	0.2	
UKTV Drama+1	0.2	
UKTV Style	0.2	
Virgin1 + 1	0.2	
Boomerang	0.15	
Paramount Comedy 2	0.15	
Sky Movies Action-Thriller	0.15	
Sky Movies Comedy	0.15	
Animal Planet	0.1	
attheraces	0.1	
Boomerang +1	0.1	
Bravo +1	0.1	
Bravo 2	0.1	
Challenge TV +1	0.1	
Clubland TV	0.1	
Dave +1	0.1	
Discovery +1	0.1	
Discovery Home & Health	0.1	
Discovery Knowledge	0.1	
Discovery Real Time	0.1	
Discovery Real Time Extra	0.1	
Discovery Science	0.1	
Discovery Turbo	0.1	
Disney Cinemagic	0.1	
DMAX	0.1	
E!	0.1	
Eurosport 2	0.1	
five US+1	0.1	
Fox News	0.1	
FX+	0.1	
Jetix	0.1	
Jetix +1	0.1	
Kerrang!	0.1	
Kiss TV	0.1	
Magic TV	0.1	
More4 +1	0.1	
Movies 24	0.1	
Movies 24+	0.1	
Movies4Men	0.1	
MTV Base	0.1	
MTV One	0.1	
MTV One +1	0.1	
National Geographic	0.1	
National Geographic +1	0.1	
Playhouse Disney Plus	0.1	
Pop	0.1	
Price Drop TV	0.1	
Sci-Fi Channel+1	0.1	
Setanta Sports 1	0.1	
Setanta Sports News	0.1	
Sky Movies Classics	0.1	
Sky Movies Drama	0.1	
Sky Movies Family	0.1	
Sky Movies Modern Greats	0.1	
Sky Movies Premiere +1	0.1	
Sky Movies SciFi-Horror	0.1	
Sky Movies Screen 1	0.1	
Sky Movies Screen 2	0.1	
Sky Sports Extra	0.1	
TCM	0.1	
The History Channel	0.1	
The History Channel +1	0.1	
Tiny Pop	0.1	
Trouble	0.1	
True Movies	0.1	
True Movies 2	0.1	
UKTV Food	0.1	
UKTV Food + 1	0.1	
UKTV Gardens	0.1	
UKTV History +1	0.1	
UKTV People	0.1	
UKTV Style +1	0.1	
Zone Horror	0.1	
Zone Reality	0.1	
Animal Planet +1	0.05	
BBC HD	0.05	
Bid TV	0.05	
DMAX+1	0.05	
Ideal World	0.05	
ITV 3 +1	0.05	
Movies4Men 2	0.05	
MTV R	0.05	
National Geographic Wild	0.05	
The Biography Channel	0.05	
The Box	0.05	
UKTV Documentary	0.05	
Zone Reality+1	0.05

The rest of the Sky digital channels have viewing figures too low for reliable measurement

CHANNEL 4/S4C 7.1
BBC 2 7.05

Sky One same as Ireland, 1%
AFAIK Skyone is on every pay TV pack here with Sky or UPC,cable or MMDS ?

Film4 is almost as popular as Sky One and a LOT cheaper for a Broadcaster

HD penetration is obviously a lot lower than some people think.

watty · 23-07-2008 4:50pm

BTW I'd be surpised if it wasn't fraud to use a domestic DTT sub in a Pub. It would need a much more expensive commerical licence. It would be a standard condition of supply from Sky for Sky Sports or Setanta for their content.

Technically even FTA TV or Radio content needs an additional Licence in a Public place also. Apart from the free or costly content sub.

Elmo · 23-07-2008 4:52pm

Film4 is almost as popular as Sky One and a LOT cheaper for a Broadcaster

AFAIK sky don't worry about the amount of viewers they worry more about the number of subscibers. So if I was in Sky I would be more worried that Film 4 and other smaller movie channels get around the same viewership as All Sky Movie channels.

pa990 · 23-07-2008 6:01pm

watty wrote: »

BTW I'd be surpised if it wasn't fraud to use a domestic DTT sub in a Pub. It would need a much more expensive commerical licence. It would be a standard condition of supply from Sky for Sky Sports or Setanta for their content.

Technically even FTA TV or Radio content needs an additional Licence in a Public place also. Apart from the free or costly content sub.

I'm sure that it would be against the T&C, but when did that ever stop anyone

BTW, whats the situation in the UK, do they have a domestic sub and a commercial sub for DTT ??

watty · 23-07-2008 6:05pm

People DO get caught.
There are also honest people with Integrity. Though why is that the smarter more sucessfull politicians seem to be the other kind?

pa990 · 23-07-2008 6:12pm

watty wrote: »

People DO get caught.
There are also honest people with Integrity. Though why is that the smarter more sucessfull politicians seem to be the other kind?

i don't doubt you

But it will be a serious temptation for commercial premises, and i'm sure that some premises will succumb to the temptation

icdg · 23-07-2008 7:16pm

pa990 wrote: »

BTW, whats the situation in the UK, do they have a domestic sub and a commercial sub for DTT ??

They have NO sub for DTT. Hence the name Freeview. The original pay-TV service, ONdigital/ITV Digital, may have had one, but couldn't tell you at this stage. It went broke, spectacularly. Another attempt at a subscription service, Top Up TV, was launched but has next-to-near closed its original pay-TV service and reinvented itself as a sort of near video-on-demand service. That doesn't look to be going too well, either.

As for Boxer DTT, I wish them luck in their attempt to compete with Sky/UPC. They may even poach a chunk of subscribers, if their pricing is right.

But if the object is analogue switch-off, its doomed to failure. Quite simply, as proposed Irish DTT offers no-incentive for Pay-TV refusniks to switch to digital. Its' quite clear that Boxer envisages a scenario where **every** TV viewer has pay-TV. And as a pay-TV company (and let's call a spade a spade here) why wouldn't they. Its their business plan.

That's great, for introducing a new competitor to the pay-TV market. But it won't acompalish analogue switch off. What incentive is there for a non-digital non-pay customer to pay €50-100 to switch to DTT? None, other than a better picture (maybe) and the threat of analogue switch-off. To me that's all stick and no-carrot. The carrot is extra TV channels, but Boxer will offer FTA people what extra channels? Oireachtas TV (good for the 5% of us who are political anoraks but of no interest to the general poplace) and the Irish Film Channel. If RTÉ actually launch their promised new channels (and they are FTA) that might help things, but I won't hold my breath. Put simply, we need a Freeview type service to achieve ASO - but Boxer won't give us that. All they'll give us is a slightly cheaper version of Sky Digital / UPC Digital with a lot less channels.

reslfj · 23-07-2008 7:34pm

pa990 wrote: »

we all know about the failure ....., boxer's slow start up in Sweden

Boxer has about 700.000 subscribers in Sweden - it went down by a few thousand recently - but Boxer is believed to be a success in Sweden.

Elmo wrote: »

MMMMMMMM.... well...... Boxer are currently being taken to court in Europe because they are the only DTT company available to customers (RTENL would be a competitor here in Ireland, and I am pulling at straws with that). Many people in sweden feel that the only reason that Boxer has been successful is because of ASO (Analogue Switch Off) hence they have gained loads of customers but it is felt that they only did that because of ASO which could be considered as state intervention because the state part own Boxer.
So boxer doesn't have a great reputation in their home country.

You are here mixing an EU anti-competition intervention and the ASO process. Sweden - the government - was not allowed to grant the pay-Tv license to Boxer without others being given a chance to bid for the license.

The Swedish government has changed the licensing rules and they are now OK - from a competition point of view ( the license are now with the tv stations and not with Boxer).

Denmark and Ireland both invited proposals from all interested and in both countries Boxer won the DTT contract in a competitive process.

The ASO process is agreed far beyond the EU borders and has nothing to do with supporting Boxer or pay-TV.
All the previous analogue channels are now free digital channels in Sweden, but small countries like Sweden and even more so Denmark and Ireland, can afford only a limited number of free channels. It is as simple as that.

As for the Boxer reputation in Sweden - its much better then described above - but not all like paying for TV nor do they choose to understand the need for such payments.
Boxer has -IMHO- an OK offer when compared to cable and IPTV.

Ireland is in a special position when it comes to pay-TV: - Freesat UK and in some parts Freeview UK - and no language problems.

Such an option is not available in Denmark nor in Sweden.

I don't think it will as easy for Boxer in Ireland, when a combined DVB-T/Mpeg-4 and DVB-S2 box is on the market. An aerial and a small sat-dish can then bring everything most viewers want - for free.

Such DVB-T/DVB-S2 STB's are on the market in Scandinavia - but in a pay-TV version (with a not needed CI slot).

Lars

watty · 23-07-2008 8:27pm

Or two small boxes that are still less than the size of a VHS. Plus learning remote @15 Euro.

It was a good move on Sky's part getting Phillips to design the original remote and put most TVs in it.

dgently · 23-07-2008 9:40pm

I wouldn't be too discouraged Lars:). Free TV isn't all bad news.

There's an astonishing appetite for Premium Sports channels in this country. So long as they have a lock on the Premiership and the Ryder Cup, then the stats suggest that 25% of the combo freeview/freesat adopters will opt for Boxer sports service. Sky/UPC can't compete.

I'm guessing your business case will stand or fall on your ability to entice normal Pay TV users within your footprint to switch platform.

I beleive you have a fighting chance.

TheDriver · 23-07-2008 10:09pm

Can i clarify, in my stupidity but when DTT gets on the road, you can still get all the PSB free with a generic mpeg4 box without paying boxer? Just seems in the media etc that everyone will have to use boxer?

Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

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