Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

scath

Lol... I must revise further my suggestion that Cula4 return back to TG4 and HOTV instead timeshares with the new 5th channel I suggest as sensible for both HOTV and post ASO that HOTV get's at least 2 channels for itself. In retrospect I would be relegating Cula4 for HOTV which would not be right. Cula4 is important and should not be diluted in any way. Timeshare with the 5th channel seems sensible for HOTV

SPDUB

scath wrote: »

I'm against the idea of +1 channels as waste of spectrum when online can offer replay for 7 days etc of programming. Options are Sky Active playback methods but no point dedicating a whole channel to +1.

You seem to be forgetting the fact that some people don't have access to online whether it's their own reasons or they can't get access for other reasons

Elmo

SPDUB wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting the fact that some people don't have access to online whether it's their own reasons or they can't get access for other reasons

So anyway I am watching a TV show and I forget that there is another show I that I wanted to see only problem is I didn't remember that it was on until the morning. Pity I missed the repeat on RTE ONE +1. See what a waste of specturm.

either a channel goes with a +1day later so that I can catch up after remembering or being told of a good show the previous night. or they go with an extra channel that repeats the show later on in the week. Far better then a +1 channel IMO. And it gives you even more choice.

SPDUB

Elmo wrote: »

So anyway I am watching a TV show and I forget that there is another show I that I wanted to see only problem is I didn't remember that it was on until the morning. Pity I missed the repeat on RTE ONE +1. See what a waste of specturm.

either a channel goes with a +1day later so that I can catch up after remembering or being told of a good show the previous night. or they go with an extra channel that repeats the show later on in the week. Far better then a +1 channel IMO. And it gives you even more choice.

First point online is not a reason to have no +1 channel which was the point I was replying to.

And your suggestion of +1 day or later is also a waste of spectrum if people want to suggest that just to a lesser degree than +1 hour after all haven't people got VCR's ,PVRs etc .

Elmo

SPDUB wrote: »

First point online is not a reason to have no +1 channel which was the point I was replying to.

And your suggestion of +1 day or later is also a waste of spectrum if people want to suggest that just to a lesser degree than +1 hour after all haven't people got VCR's ,PVRs etc .

1. Point taken.

2. I am only saying a +1day is a tiny bit better only for the same reason that you suggest that people don't have VCR, PVRs etc. i.e. even if you have a PVR you may forget to record and you may not have Internet access. So one day later provides you with a chance to catch up.

However I would rather see an extra channel with a different schedule repeating shows. E.g. having the news on RTE ONE +1day at 6:1 would be twice as pointless as 6:1 an hour later. :rolleyes:

scath

Broadcasting Bill 2008 amendments went through today, Simon Conveney and Liz McManus appeared to prefer the BAI to become part of ComReg as more cost effective, given the current economic situation, like what they have in the UK with Ofcom, a bigger regulator doing both. Sounds a moot point given convergence apparently which they mentioned also. But Minister Ryan felt that with telecoms being a much financially bigger industry here that broadcasting would be better catered for by a separate broadcast regulator than with a unified regulator where broadcasting might not be as well catered for owing to their lesser importance economically in a unified structure. No doubt they'll go further down during the day on the other amendments with regards to the 2 new broadcasters foreseen.

My own opinion is that while the 2 new broadcasters HOTV and Irish Film Channel as separate channels does have singularity of focus going for being separate, given the current economic climate, I think that the Irish Film Channel should come under a reconstituted TG4 whereby it becomes an integrated business division of TI4. (Television Ireland 4) with Television Arts 4 (TA4) becoming another new integrated business division and an an Education channel (Television Eolas 4) (TE4) as a further integrated business division.

What I'm suggesting is the expansion of the TG4 studios, use of the expertise in TG4 and making this 2nd public service broadcaster stonger in terms of expertise and infrastructure already existing. You avoid the costs of setting up 2 new broadcasters.

Houses of the Oireachtas TV could become an integrated business division of RTÉ, funded by the Oireachtas ie RTÉ Oireachtas. It would be just cheaper & quicker to get the RTÉ Oireachtas channel up and running rather than it created as a new broadcaster and the costs associated with that. To be honest I'm not so pushed on this one, but I think that it should be done as it was with TG4 whereby for now it be part of RTÉ to be later separated when money allows if the Minister wished to so direct it be separated and established following analysis of how it worked within RTÉ versus how it might work separate of it.

Advertising is to be allowed under some restrictions on the Irish Film Channel, with films not to be interrupted by advertising which is very welcome, the Referendum Commission will get preferential rates and Irish language catered for. The reason for ads is for resource purposes, funding. I don't love ads at all, but purely to assist it to generate revenue it can then use assist the Irish Film Board in funding costs of running the Irish Film Channel and surplus revenues exist (doubt so) then to be used in Irish Film grants alongside its subvention.

NHS use of Digital TV platforms in the UK for an information service particularly suited to disabled viewers was also mentioned by Simon Conveney and the public benefit of a HSE TV service was also put forward by him which I agree with. There was discussion of disability groups and that they should be included in BAI appointments, obligations on broadcasters etc..

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2008/2908/document1.htm

http://asx.heanet.ie/oireachtas/dail_audioonly.asx- this one is for live Dáil so you won't hear the debate on the Broadcasting Bill in the afternoon as that debate is adjourned and the Health Bill is being discussed.

New link at rtenl.com/dtt.htm. see: http://www.rtenl.com/downloads/ReceivingDTT.pdf I think its a very good guide on aerial installation. Boxer is mentioned so one could maybe assume that Boxer has returned contracts now since?

The Cush

scath wrote: »

New link at rtenl.com/dtt.htm. see: http://www.rtenl.com/downloads/ReceivingDTT.pdf I think its a very good guide on aerial installation. Boxer is mentioned so one could maybe assume that Boxer has returned contracts now since?

I see RTE are using the CAI Benchmarked Aerial standard but by a different name

RTE||CAI||
Category 1||Standard 1||Should provide adequate DTT reception even for homes on the fringes of coverage areas
Category 2||Standard 2||Intermediate standard, suitable for use within the coverage
Category 3||Standard 3||Minimum standard required for good coverage conditions
Category 4||Standard 4||Recommended where better wideband performance is required


and Table 2 - Antenna Recommended Minimum Gain Figures on page 7 are taken from the CAI Guidelines for Benchmarked Aerials. They should have gone the whole hog and recommended an CAI Benchmarked aerial.

Regarding their recommendation for cable

The antenna should be connected to the STB using good quality cable, such as CT100, conforming to the standard EN 50117-1 1997.

RTE using old info from the CAI Cable Type 100 CAI Benchmark Specification.
The standard is now BS EN 50117-1:2002, CT100 cable according to Tony here on the boards "CT100 is a generic term as its no longer made" also it is not a benchmarked cable type.
CT100 was manufactured by Raydex until 2005.

A brief history of CT100:
Volex/Raydex CT (CT=Copper tape) 100 (100=1.00mm centre core) was around long before satellite. Volex/Raydex no longer exists as a cable manufacturer and so the brand name CT100 also no longer exists, but people still refer to 1.00 mm copper tape and braid cable as CT100, I suppose like people calling their vacuum cleaner a Hoover when that is just the brand name.
Volex/Raydex launched, among other products CT100 and was universally recognised as the byword for quality TV coaxial. In 1991 Raydex acquired Fothergill Cables leaders in the production of high performance specialist cables for the Industrial, Aerospace and Defence markets. Volex Grp-Raydex Specialist were bought by CDT (Cable Design Technologies Corp) in 1995 and CDT were subsequently merged with Belden during 2004 to form the largest global electronic cable manufacturer. The Raydex and CT100 brands disappeared following the merger.

Elmo

scath wrote: »

My own opinion is that while the 2 new broadcasters HOTV and Irish Film Channel as separate channels does have singularity of focus going for being separate, given the current economic climate, I think that the Irish Film Channel should come under a reconstituted TG4 whereby it becomes an integrated business division of TI4. (Television Ireland 4) with Television Arts 4 (TA4) becoming another new integrated business division and an an Education channel (Television Eolas 4) (TE4) as a further integrated business division.

TG4 or TnaG. TI4 if call this would be TE4, but no real reason to waste money re-branding a good brand TG4. Arts - Ealaín could be TE4 and Education - oideachas TO4. But I am sure we could spend years coming up with suitable names. I have been saying this on boards for years.

TG4 - FISE (Film Ireland Scannan Eireann)4 - EOLAS4 (Promoted and supported by individual departments not just DCENR). FISE - Vision.

EOLAS4 should contain details from the HSE, The Arts Council and other groups I don't see the point in a different channel.

Anyway it is all a pipe dream. There will be at most 6 FTA channels.

TheDriver

would be great if TV3 could get 3e on the PSB mux and might have a chance in these economic times to save RTE putting more channels on while giving DTT that extra something over analog

watty

Since TV3 won't even pay to go on all the existing transmitters (which ought to be breach of licence), it's unlikely they will pay for TV3e to go on PSB. Also then they could not charge and it's likely some of the content is licenced to them on basis it's encrypted pay TV. They'd have been (vainly?) hoping Boxer would pay them.

Elmo

TheDriver wrote: »

would be great if TV3 could get 3e on the PSB mux and might have a chance in these economic times to save RTE putting more channels on while giving DTT that extra something over analog

I would rather see city channel on PBS then 3e, give a new licence to an new entrant.

3e on the PBS mux would have to improve vastly to even get that go ahead. Fair enough if we where talking about giving them one licence out of 10 but there isn't any space of this cheep channel. If they plan to give it to 3e I don't see why another company couldn't get a channel.

tretle

City channel? If it did it would fail miserably, whats the problem with 3e. It offers entertainment and who cares if its not irish programming. The only decent irish programming that ever gets created by rte are factual shows. Thats why we have this whole problem in the first place, factual shows arent great exports. I mean what ficional show do we have? Fair City, that thing should be cancelled and everyone fired, its shoddy writing and acting are risiculous. And the amount they get paid is even more. 3e is an entertainment channel.if there were more fictional entertainment irish shows, or any good ones then I am sure it would be aired on 3e, unfortunately there arent.

Elmo

tretle wrote: »

City channel? If it did it would fail miserably, whats the problem with 3e. It offers entertainment and who cares if its not irish programming. The only decent irish programming that ever gets created by rte are factual shows. Thats why we have this whole problem in the first place, factual shows arent great exports. I mean what ficional show do we have? Fair City, that thing should be cancelled and everyone fired, its shoddy writing and acting are risiculous. And the amount they get paid is even more. 3e is an entertainment channel.if there were more fictional entertainment irish shows, or any good ones then I am sure it would be aired on 3e, unfortunately there arent.

3e is the same old same old, the only thing worth watching is In Treatment. (I discluded their numerous repeats).

Who to say that 3e couldn't produce a good show outside of factual why does it always have to be left to RTÉ?

RTÉ do sell their shows to some cable channels, only the other week I saw Househunters in the Sun on Discovery Travel or something (I quickly changed channel ).

3e would have to produce a fictious Irish entertainment show. RTÉ have produced plenty of good drama over the last number of years (bar Fair City). It would be nice to see TV3 produce an entertainment show. They just don't have the balls.

To suggest that their are no entertaining fictional TV shows coming from Ireland is rubbish espically when they are far and few inbetween. You are giving people who have never produced a fiction show far too much credit than they deserve.

Anyone could set up a 3e channel and do well if they got on the PSB mux. However the audience would never be huge.

In relation to City Channel if they did appear the could expand their programming and make it better then in currently is. However I would look for an overhaul of City Channel.

E4 is entertaining why not let them rebroadcast that on PBS Mux?

scath

What I meant was TG4 would become an integrated business division of TI4. TI4 would be the holding group like RTÉ. TG4 would keep its brand, but use would be made of the brand to stengthen it so you had similar logos like TA4 (Television Arts) Arts & Community programming, made up of HSE and government info programmes. Telífis Gaeilge 4 (TG4), Television Eolas4 (TE4) (Higher Education Government Info).

TI4= TG4, TA4, TE4. 3 business divisions using common equipment, expertise but funding from its own sector with its own boards and audience councils.
Looks like the Film Channel is going ahead. But why not call it an arts channel instead of a Film Channel so it can be wider channel.

Elmo wrote: »

TG4 or TnaG. TI4 if call this would be TE4, but no real reason to waste money re-branding a good brand TG4. Arts - Ealaín could be TE4 and Education - oideachas TO4. But I am sure we could spend years coming up with suitable names. I have been saying this on boards for years.

TG4 - FISE (Film Ireland Scannan Eireann)4 - EOLAS4 (Promoted and supported by individual departments not just DCENR). FISE - Vision.

EOLAS4 should contain details from the HSE, The Arts Council and other groups I don't see the point in a different channel.

Anyway it is all a pipe dream. There will be at most 6 FTA channels.

Elmo

scath wrote: »

What I meant was TG4 would become an integrated business division of TI4. TI4 would be the holding group like RTÉ. TG4 would keep its brand, but use would be made of the brand to stengthen it so you had similar logos like TA4 (Television Arts) Arts & Community programming, made up of HSE and government info programmes. Telífis Gaeilge 4 (TG4), Television Eolas4 (TE4) (Higher Education Government Info).

TI4= TG4, TA4, TE4. 3 business divisions using common equipment, expertise but funding from its own sector with its own boards and audience councils.
Looks like the Film Channel is going ahead. But why not call it an arts channel instead of a Film Channel so it can be wider channel.

My issue with Television Ireland 4 is that it angalcise a company that was set up to promote the Irish lanuage, TG4 does that even a tiny bit when people refer to it as TG Four :mad:

The company covering TG4, TE4 and TO4 or whatever you want to call them could simple be called TnaG which is the company that looks after TG4.

JanusGeminius

Elmo wrote: »

My issue with Television Ireland 4 is that it angalcise a company that was set up to promote the Irish lanuage, TG4 does that even a tiny bit when people refer to it as TG Four :mad:

The company covering TG4, TE4 and TO4 or whatever you want to call them could simple be called TnaG which is the company that looks after TG4.

It's not their fault people are more used to saying Four when refering to 4. The only way to solve that problem is to ban the use of English in Ireland. Any takers?

Elmo

JanusGeminius wrote: »

It's not their fault people are more used to saying Four when refering to 4. The only way to solve that problem is to ban the use of English in Ireland. Any takers?

But 4 is channel (four) 4 and ceathair is tg (ceathair) 4 we could end up confusing people we wouldn't want to do that, why do you thing Channel 6 called themselves Channel 6 rather then Channel 5 (which is now just five) to confusing

I always refer to it as TG Ceathair that the name of the station, just like when it was call TnaG we didn't go around calling it ToftheG (actually quite a good name ) or T NAG, did we?

Anyway I am just saying it is silly to call the company TI4 when they could just call it TnaG.

Totally OTT I did set up a new forum for all this silly talk http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055529538 so that we would n't trail of the topic. Reply to this there thanks.

Anyway no real news about Boxer so far this year is there?

watty

Even I know it's TG ceathair. And I didn't have Irish at school. Of course I only call the UK men in Uniform Police and the locals Garda.

They seem to have Police in Dublin, so it must be Western Britain. It that where these rare Irish that call it TG Four live?

Elmo

watty wrote: »

Even I know it's TG ceathair. And I didn't have Irish at school. Of course I only call the UK men in Uniform Police and the locals Garda.

They seem to have Police in Dublin, so it must be Western Britain. It that where these rare Irish that call it TG Four live?

I have heard other from outside the pale call it TGFour, oddly they're the same people who insist on calling TV5, TVCinq and France24, France vingt-quatre.

mjsmyth

Without getting in to a big debate about it, i have never heard it called TG Four... I never even thought anyone would use it as it is never referred to as such on TV.

As for "West Britains", they are a law on to themselves

mj

watty

Elmo wrote: »

I have heard other from outside the pale call it TGFour, oddly they're the same people who insist on calling TV5, TVCinq and France24, France vingt-quatre.

Maybe they are not from Ireland. French people might assume we use english.

Foreign people here a short time but long enough to think the only Irish is on Road signs might say TG four.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

Maybe they are not from Ireland. French people might assume we use english.

Foreign people here a short time but long enough to think the only Irish is on Road signs might say TG four.

True enough I only speak to french tourist who come to watch TG4, remember home with TV5.

icdg

For what its worth, everyone I know calls it TG4. But I live in Dublin

Anyway, back on topic please people...

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

For what its worth, everyone I know calls it TG4. But I live in Dublin

Anyway, back on topic please people...

But do they call it TVcinq or TGceathair?

Any news on Boxer <<<tries to get it back on track

JanusGeminius

icdg wrote: »

For what its worth, everyone I know calls it TG4. But I live in Dublin

Anyway, back on topic please people...

There isn't a problem with that though as it's rendered in Arabic numbering so language doesn't apply. It's only the Language Nazis that have a problem with it.

Elmo wrote: »

But do they call it TVcinq or TGceathair?

Any news on Boxer <<<tries to get it back on track

Elmo

JanusGeminius wrote: »

There isn't a problem with that though as it's rendered in Arabic numbering so language doesn't apply. It's only the Language Nazis that have a problem with it.

I just have a problem when people insist that TVfive is TVcinq, while refusing to call TG4 TGceathair. :rolleyes:

So no news on Boxer !


regrets bring this up!

Sponge Bob

Have boxer signed the licence/contract with the BCI yet ....more to the point ! Have they siggned up with RTENL ?

scath

Can we assume for the Digital Reception pdf on RTÉ NL which mentions boxer that they have now returned the contracts? As that's a recent document can one assume that? Boxer have launched in Denmark http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/denmark/ so can would suspect that they still have the appetite to here? I could imagine the issue of Boxer sign-off with the BCI + funding of the switchover help scheme has delayed the Dept's DTT Info Campaign. Also I would imagine that RTÉ had to plug their financial hole with some cuts in payroll in order to see how they were proceeding with launch, ie when.

I haven't an inside track, so am guessing it has been the reason for the delay. With the budget out of the way, the Dept should have clarity now and sign off on it from the Dept of Finance.

To my mind the BCI need to set a sign-off date/target for Boxer. The unclarity I don't think would be fair to RTÉ in terms of Free-to-air launch budget. Either the BCI decide okay, given current economic conditions, we're happy to delay contract conclusions for a year til things become clearer or they decide to suspend after a definite date negotiations if not concluded and offer the license then to the next highest rated.

I think if it were Onevision or Easy TV, the contracts would have been returned to RTÉ NL and there would be a clear launch path. Certainly, Onevision's offering seemed most recession proof and I see Boxer's or an Easy TV one which was similar as gaining little traction versus Sky or UPC if they launch. By contrast the Onevision pricing seems to be a strong contender.

So I think given the current economic climate that pricing will have to change to what Onevision were suggesting in order to get takers. Also the pre-paid/post pay mode of the mobile phone market seems like a wise one. And usb sticks are a potential strong part of the pay DTT business given the lack of alternative from Sky or UPC until broadband contention rates improve in big swatches of the country.

I think Boxer may still proceed, but I think they'll have to go with Onevision pricing or it'll be embarrasingly low uptake for them with little takers for the few channels for €10. I say again, Laptop TV is a potenial winner so they'd be mad not to launch that product at the same time and I see Sky and UPC as promoting their online options heavily to counteract that. I suspect that UPC will see the online TV product as a big part of their future as the cable market get's squeezed by Boxer. Likewise I see Sky pushing more the online TV product.

But Boxer Laptop TV will be able to push a good 3 or more years out of things while contention rates are slow before the online market starts to squeeze. That's why I think laptop TV via usb stick as critical to the early uptake of Boxer.

I guess long term we might see the decline of terrestrial, cable and satellite broadcasting as contention speeds increase, though I'm talking 5 to 10 years with Online TV taking over and wireless broadband dominating with landline doing nothing more than teleconferencing.

tretle

Would there be any usb dvb-t tuners capable of receiving an encrypted broadcast? I don't think this will be a selling point for boxer. It would be a huge selling point for RTE DTT though.

Elmo

Can I ask perhaps a stupid question!

Can a Satellite/Terrestrial broadcaster provided you with pay TV without the use of a smart card?

I.E. If I have a freesat/mpeg4 DTT ready TV can I organise with Sky/Boxer getting Sky Sports using my Make, Model and Serial Number or chip number etc?

Also if I am getting a new TV should I go for a FreeSat/Mpeg5 ready TV?

MattEmulsion

watty wrote: »

Since TV3 won't even pay to go on all the existing transmitters (which ought to be breach of licence), it's unlikely they will pay for TV3e to go on PSB. Also then they could not charge and it's likely some of the content is licenced to them on basis it's encrypted pay TV. They'd have been (vainly?) hoping Boxer would pay them.

There's no room on the terrestrial spectrum for another channel so whether tv3 would pay for it to be on there or not is a moot point

tretle

Been a long time since I checked but last time I did u couldn't, the only thing you could pick up was unencrypted transmissions like freesat or freeview tv.
A tv with an mpeg4 receiver would be a good idea but I think there will be a new wave of tv's most likely offering hdd storage for recording and a bit further down the line we might see tv's without hdd's which are capable of sending streams from the dvb-t reciever over upnp.
The reason I think this will happen is because this is the direction alot of open source upnp projects are going now, alot of them are aiming for the ability of viewing and recording tv streams over upnp. This would help reduce the costs for the tv manufacturers and centralize our media better.
Of course this will involve other components to follow the revolution, like having the majority of broadband routers with storage and upnp functionality but thats already happening as its helping manufacturers differenciate their product lineup better.
Anyway, This is another reason why I dont want to support boxer or any other broadcaster which transmits over encrypted streams as it is holding back inovation like this from happening.
If sky hadnt gained such a monopoly then we might already be at the first stage.
Not too sure what kind of tv to reccomend right now. Samsung have new functionality in their tv's now called internet@tv which is a joint venture with yahoo. This is interesting and I think I saw one for sale on piximania or komplett for nine hundred and something euroes which was full hd and compatible with the irish dtt service but I also havent seen any reviews yet so I cant reccomend it.
What is interesting about it though is the possibility for expansion software side, you can download and install new widgets and soon you can develop your own.
The api hasnt been publically released so I dont know what type of control over the hardware you have but it would be nice if you could manipulate the stream from the dvb-t card and upnp server to create new functionality.
Its unlikely that this is the case though for the first implementation of internet@tv but it might be possible in future versions.
I dont know how deeply intergrated the internet@tv software is yet and what the storey is with firmware updates from samsung and whether they could increase the control of the hardware further to developers down the line or whether people will need to buy new sets.
One thing I know for sure though is that upnp will be a much nicer solution for people, there would no longer be a need for buying a dvb-t card for your laptop/desktop as the user could watch the tv through a upnp stream. The reccordings would unlike sky not be restricted to one box in your living room, instead the user would be able to reccord on any platform which supports upnp(linux, osx, windows) and future hardware(nas routers). The user would have control over where their media is stored and it would make better use of the storage the user already has in their home.
So when I think dtt I think possibility, but most of the innovation will come from fta not subscription tv. There is so much more that dtt will offer us other than better reception and interactive aertel and we have alot to be excited about if its done right.

Onikage

Elmo wrote: »

Can a Satellite/Terrestrial broadcaster provided you with pay TV without the use of a smart card?

They can but they won't because a smart card is the minimum level of security you should be supplying for PayTV. It would be quite easy to make an STB that reports a fake serial number.

Elmo

MattEmulsion wrote: »

There's no room on the terrestrial spectrum for another channel so whether tv3 would pay for it to be on there or not is a moot point

Well I was just thinking about and I amn't up to scratch on the technology being used but If you will allow me ask another stupid question.

Lets talk about the 2 new PSB channels Film and Oireteachtas.

It is unlikely that Film will be 24 hours and the same goes for the Oireachtas channel. So if we have to channels on different frequences and reduced the need for one when the other is on then their would be room for an extra channel. (Hopefully not 3E).

So is this why BBC 3 and CBBC both go out at different times of the day? ?????

Again sorry for the silly questions.

MattEmulsion

The US VideoCipher II system originally didn't use any card at all but when it was compromised that was it. There was no way to regain security without replacing it with VideoCipher II/RS (Renewable Security) which uses a smart card. There's also the Chrous analogue Jerrold boxes which don't use a card. The only digital encryption system I think that doesn't use a card is PowerVu but I'm open to correction on that one.

MattEmulsion wrote: »

There's no room on the terrestrial spectrum for another channel so whether tv3 would pay for it to be on there or not is a moot point

Not true, almost every relay has a spare channel which would have been assigned to TV3 had they rolled out properly. For example, Listowel uses 53, 57 and 63 but is also allocated channel 60.

icdg

Guys, I remind you of the ban on discussing hacking systems at this point. Also this thread is meant to be on Boxer, so back on topic!

scath

Yip ICDG. I made that mistake before & got an infraction. So I learnt my lesson lol. But I can understand, for the good of boards you can't encourage that sort of talk.

Back to topic. Boxer Danmark have launched in advance of their required November 2009 start date on February 1st covering West Denmark ie Jutland and by the summer have taken up some spectrum sharing with a cable operator in Copenhagen.http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxertv.dk&sl=da&tl=en&history_state0= Of course the market is different in Denmark but it shows confidence they have, financials etc. So that make Boxer Ireland more likely to go ahead although Budget 2009 (2) might not help matters. I think that Onevision and Easy would be more than happy to step back into the ring, even in the current situation, taking a longer term investment view. To my mind, the Digital TV usb stick is strong point of DTT, more than the set top box to be honest which will slug it out with satellite TV and cable. Due to ease of use and with contention rates for video and broadband speeds, the digital TV usb stick can give Boxer or any alternative in its place, the necessary subs to get off the ground with reasonable market share. Its only in say 4 or 5 years that things get harder. I see a problem for RTÉ NL though with internet TV. I think that the terrestrial network will become unnecessary and that the best thing for it to do in the future is to refocus itself into a wholely wireless broadband infrastructure and cell mast network maintenance company. Internet TV will save broadcasters transmission costs and Sky,Boxer, UPC etc will also save these costs via the internet.


If I were the set top box and TV manufacturers I'd be looking to put in pay TV compliant MPEG4, T2 integrated cards into laptops and PCs to forestall IPTV because I think in time, big TV sets will be the new PC using the internet instead of an aerial and the set top box market will be slowly be killed off by internet TV. Tv sets will stay but laptops and portable TVs will converge. PCs and big screen TVs will converge. Again the current TV license regime is not future proofed and addition to the electricity bill should be undertaken now.

I foresee cable and terrestrial as becoming IPTV only to increase bandwidth as broadcasters remove themselves from cable and terrestrial carriage and its costs and the broadcasters going purely internet package based over the next 5-10 years. Only satellite will hold TV because of its geographical reach and the cost of satellite broadband by contrast.

As in the UK you'll see a push here of Sky Player & UPC of the internet TV packages aswell as the FTA offering and then a free to air operator offering FTA separately for those who don't wish to use subscriptions etc.

Boxer Sweden has begun offering TV over broadband:http://translate.google.com/translat...istory_state0=

I think a FTA brand is the next priority for the Irish broadcasters. Something like Digiview as the name for the FTA brand across all TV platforms as a name referring to all Irish FTA TV broadcasters existing and new. That's just simplicity for viewers be that on cable, satellite or DTT.

And for the switchover campaign- 'Digitelly should be used which can promote switchover to Boxer Digiview and Boxer Packages, Sky and UPC Digipacks options. But I'm against Digiview set top boxes as that's just environmentally unfriendly and screwing up pay DTT. In the UK it was down to timing, Freeview preceeded Top up TV. Here, that excuse shouldn't exist and we're a smaller market so no point making it harder for pay DTT.

Elmo

scath wrote: »

I see Boxer Sweden has begun offering TV over broadband. So I guess over the next few years once the broadband speeds improve from wireless we'll begin to see more of that here. http://translate.google.com/translat...istory_state0=

Any chance they would provide Broadband over DTT?

scath

Elmo wrote: »

Any chance they would provide Broadband over DTT?

I've said it to RTÉ NL. I think it can be done technically. The only thing is competition aspect of RTÉ NL but if they were just a wholesaler then no problem really. Boxer providing broadband, hmm, now that would piss of the telecom network operators. I'd suspect they'll try and offer on top of mobile broadband rather than offer themselves. But they could rent capacity off RTE NL. But the problem is the spectrum management of TV signals and broadband signals from the same network. How to avoid interference. Not sure technically how that can be done. Am sure it can, with just spectrum management. You could broadcast a broadband signal but would have to send it encrypted for competition and profitability reasons. RTE NL is a state co so....and anyways would be in the business of profits. Otherwise you'd have free internet countrywide. But yea, I'd imagine just a matter of allocating a channel or two across transmitters for broadband only.

I'm sure it could be done by using DVB-RCT for the return path. Would be an interesting way of sorting the broadband shambles in this country.

scath

Now you said it Karsini. It would be. Boxer could go take up subcontract with 3 on its rollout. Remember 3 are in the NBS as wholesale provider I think not as retailer. I've just suggested it there a few mos via email to Boxer. So if they can sign of with the BCI and are back on track with RTÉ NL well then they can get going on that. Then you'd have yet another differentiator for Boxer over Sky and UPC! Onevision would have been good for Eircom under this line of though!

watty

You can't have BB over DTT, DVB-RCT can't do it. The problem is the number of people per mast. RCT is for low traffic remote interactive.

If you have 10,000 simulataneous users on a TV mast and the uplink is 5Mbps, that is a shared 500bps speed!

The Mobile phone masts typically have similar bitrate capacity upstream to DVB-RCT, but only have about 10 simultaneous users per sector before it goes to rubbish dialup speed.

I analysed this in 1999 and later in 2006 looked at modified sectorised masts dedicated for maybe 5000 users per sector with 100 simultaneously online using DVB-h & DVb-RCT.


Also RTENL/Boxer would need an FWA licence and extra upstream spectrum to do DVB-RCT.

Also the tech provider no longer does RCT. They (Runcom) do WiMax gear.

"3" are retailer and provider of the brain dead NBS. It's just they have to offer wholesale to anyone else wanting to sell the service.

If the NBS didn't exist at all, the only difference is that there would be no subsidized satellite for people that can't get 3. 3 are rolling out anyway, it's a Mobile Phone service and they are VERY short of masts. There *IS* no real NBS, it's just branding of the Mobile Internet service 3 already sells. Their existing service (same as NBS) is subsidized by their voice calls as the data is 500x as much traffic for same price. Voice has priority too.

3 can't help Boxer, nor vice versa.

3: A Profitable Mobile Phone service with loss making subsidized Mobile Internet piggybacked.

Boxer: A PayTV service that can't compete and can't make money at all.

Why Mobile can't deliver BB, even using MOBILE WiMax or LTE, even though Fixed Wireless can.
http://irishwattystuff.com/comparewireless/CompareHSPAandFixed-v4.html

Also think how many DTT sites that there will be and the population they serve and you will see that DVB-RCT was only ever going to be the Interactive remote. Sky without the phone line for ordering games or films (which are broadcast, no real per person interactive even on Sky).




You would need about 1700 masts for decent BB nationally via DVB-RCT. Not possible using TV masts.

The downstream is a similar issue. One whole Mux might give 33Mbps. But that's not a lot for shared among ALL the users of one TV mast.

Forget it.

Fixed Wireless Broadband needs a LOT of masts. Digiweb Metro is essentially the Cable equivalent of DTT+DVB-RCT and uses the equivalent of FOUR whole muxes for a small proportion of Limerick City. Since it's at a much higher frequency and using higher QAM, it achieves about x2 to x4 the capacity of DTT + DVB-RCT.

Basically if you had NO TV from Woodcock and used ALL the channel space allocated there for DTT you could have maybe 2000 customers. That's an area of over 100,000. Even to do that you would need sectorised aerials.

So forget about any BB synergy from DTT.

Sponge Bob

DVB-RCT BB ( or BB over RTE Network) has been discussed since at least 1998 and nowt ever happened

reslfj

scath wrote: »

Back to topic. Boxer Danmark have launched in advance of their required November 2009 start date on February 1st covering West Denmark ie Jutland

As was reported here !

scath wrote: »

.... by the summer have taken up some spectrum sharing with a cable operator in Copenhagen.....Of course the market is different in Denmark but it shows confidence they have, financials etc. So that make Boxer Ireland more likely to go ahead although Budget 2009 (2) might not help matters.

Boxer and a local-tv DTT testchannel has got permission to broadcast as a small SFN until November 1. They will use the current 1.6 kW test transmitter and an extra 2 kW transmitter in a 200+ m high mast about 8 km north of the city center.
The multiplex is being tested and will begin broadcasting May 1.

The current public service MUX1 uses a 3 mast SFN with ERP's of 50kW 20 km west of city center, 10 kW in same mast as Boxer and 2 kW from a third mast in the city. A very much more robust signal

Anyway, it is a very nice early start for Boxer in Denmark.



I think, there are at least 3 points that are very different comparing Boxer in Ireland and Denmark.

1. You cannot easily get Astra 2D/Freesat in Denmark and very many viewers will need subtitles.
2. Boxertv.dk is 100% Boxer/Teracom owned - no local partner.
3. Boxer signed all contracts before the economy went 'belly up'.

Lars

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

DVB-RCT BB ( or BB over RTE Network) has been discussed since at least 1998 and nowt ever happened

And never could have and never will. People saw the raw data rate with no users and didn't do the sums. It would have been perfect for what it was meant to do, which was never ever BB.

The RCT was dropped long ago.

What Boxer does in Denmark has no relevance here.

scath

Well there we have it. Ideas are fine, but the technical aspects tell us if they can be done or not. Yer right regarding Boxer Denmark not relevant. So I guess we shall have to wait and see what happens regarding DTT here.

Bog Butter

It was reported today on the news at 1. The no. 2 bidders will now be asked if they are interested.


[Edit new thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055543384 ]

afatbollix

o ****

yayamark

This is clearly bad news yes?

Puts evrything back about 8 years

watty

maybe not really...

See

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055543384