Live Tells - Help

CHD

pocketdooz wrote: »

So next time anyone sees me in the Fitz and I stand up at the table; and start taking deep breaths like a pregnant woman before betting . . .

You'll know I'm bluffing ! Not sure if this will work ??

Could be effective, try it.

OP you should buy this http://www.amazon.com/Phil-Hellmuth-Presents-Read-Reap/dp/0061198595 its quite good.

pocketdooz

CHD wrote: »

Could be effective, try it.

OP you should buy this http://www.amazon.com/Phil-Hellmuth-Presents-Read-Reap/dp/0061198595 its quite good.

I will try it this Thursday night at the €100 double chance

I hope I don't get barred for acting like a nut ! ? ! ?

CHD

pocketdooz wrote: »

I will try it this Thursday night at the €100 double chance

I hope I don't get barred for acting like a nut ! ? ! ?

just tell them your pregnant.

semibluff

pocketdooz wrote: »

So next time anyone sees me in the Fitz and I stand up at the table; and start taking deep breaths like a pregnant woman before betting . . .

You'll know I'm bluffing ! Not sure if this will work ??

do it after you bet, otherwise its just stupid

Theresalwaysone

Mr.Plough wrote: »

if you have a bag of walkers sensations, ensure that if you eat one when you have the nuts you eat one when you're bluffing to balance the range ya know

lol, not enough love for this.

yeah-buddy

if they piss their pants that means their excited so they defo have a good hand

Blip

semibluff wrote: »

you'l find that your heartbeat rises alot when your bluffing.
when this happens, take deep breaths, like you see when a lady is practising for pregnancy. this will slow down your heart beat alot also and make your more relaxed.

also by standing up it helps your lungs breath easier.

By doing the two of these things, it should really help eliminate this particular physical tell

They alway take deep breaths when their practising for pregnancy with me;).........its when their giving birth I have a problem with my breathing.

eddiehead

A lot of good advice in this thread, DeV, Lloyd and big iain in particular, but has it been mentioned how unreliable these tells can be? Im referring to the ones that a player has direct control over like speech or looking at hole cards or counting the pot during a hand. I know that I often pretend im counting up the pot if im trying to convince an opponent Im on a draw or weaker than I actually am, it also gives me more time to think about what to do on the next street before the card is dealt, or just think about my opponents possible holdings. There are other examples, this is just one.

With better players Id try stick to things like pulse and deep breathing, these can only be controlled to an extent, no matter how smart you are. I used to have a sure tell on a guy whose temple would pulse as his heart rate raised, but he never spoke, moved, or gave away information when you'd stare at him or try induce conversation.

When dealing with inexperienced players however, they can be invaluble. In last years IO, I found myself shortstacked late in day 2, but I stole the blinds 3/4 orbits in a row on one particular guys BB because every time he got dealt his cards he would look at them straight away, if they were bad he would push them away slightly, subconsciously folding before his turn.

Overall its just best to do as little as possible, try chewing gum, I find it helps prevent me from twitching when im trying to stay still. If your anxious, adrenaline forces you to move, so if you are chewing rather than playing with cards or chips you'll give less away, I do anyway:D

mewso

big_iain wrote: »

A few things i would recommend after 4 years live play.

1> Never look at your cards until it is your turn. When I first started, I would be very keen and look at them straight away. If you have AA then it is hard to not give it away. Without experience, you almost always get excited, you will always act differently. I can always sense when an newb has aces. It is as if something has changed from the normal way he plays hand. Just call me maverick.

I've always wondered about the waiting your turn to look at your cards. In fact it seems the general wisdom that only fish look at them immediately. I honestly believe it doesn't really matter particularly if you have enough experience. In fact an inexperienced player who waits his turn to look at his cards will have every players eyes on him at that moment and may give away more. Looking at them straight away means no eyes will be on you and you can take some extra time to decide what to do while observing players and waiting for your turn to act. I think the pros and cons even out here.

cuterob

Blip wrote: »

They alway take deep breaths when their practising for pregnancy with me;).........its when their giving birth I have a problem with my breathing.

ionapaul

Remember that when you play live, a lot of players will stare at you, perhaps for minutes, but don't know what to look for and are just imitating what they see on TV trying to look cool. I'd estimate that a very, very small fraction of live players in Ireland know what to look for or could even begin to guess if they're being shown a false tell versus a real one. If an inexperienced player is staring at me and I could be bothered, I'd sometimes throw out a small false tell and hope it affects his or her decision. Otherwise I think the best standard line is to pick your spot on the table, lower your eyes to focus on it and modulate your breathing - I'd only really be very worried about giving off tells if I played in a tournament where the stakes 'mattered' to me and thought I was up against superior opponents.

One thing I do think that helps is looking at inexperienced players' hands before action gets to them - many players indicate their intentions for when action gets to them by getting the cards ready to muck or separating their stack in order to get a bet together. Obviously one way to get around this is to always use a card protector and don't make any move to muck until action gets to you and not to start counting out your chips until action is on you (I always try to verbalise my betting and calling and don't make a move until after I have spoken).

Slash/ED

musician wrote: »

I've always wondered about the waiting your turn to look at your cards. In fact it seems the general wisdom that only fish look at them immediately. I honestly believe it doesn't really matter particularly if you have enough experience. In fact an inexperienced player who waits his turn to look at his cards will have every players eyes on him at that moment and may give away more. Looking at them straight away means no eyes will be on you and you can take some extra time to decide what to do while observing players and waiting for your turn to act. I think the pros and cons even out here.

I always look at my cards only when it's my turn but this isn't so much for tells but just so my cards don't skew my thought process. When it's late in a tournament thats exclusively pre flop polay I like to see what the actions been before me and see if a good spot for a steal presents itself, and not knowing how bad my hand is at this point means im more open to take advantage of these spots if that makes sense. Conversely if there's alot of action before me I give myself a calling range, so I don't see KQs, decide I'm going to play it and not fully take in the action, if that makes sense. It's also fun when you decide "this is a good spot to squeeze" and then look down at aces. And it turns out you were wrong.

It also helps in the blinds not giving away how easy or hand your blind will be to steal before the action gets round to you.

cuterob

yea i also like to look at my cards when it's my turn because i need to know what they are so i can commence with the game and make one of these decisions: call/muck/raise.. i hope this helps the OP

semibluff

one of the main cons of looking at your cards the second they are dealt to you is that you dont get to keep your eyes on everyone else at the table. apart from this, there is no diff. You may miss the novice repositioning in a seat, or whatever it may be.

if u cant watch others view der cards aswell as view yours b4 action is on you, surely best of both worlds

hotspur

I have no interest in putting on a poker face at the table because it ruins my enjoyment of the game somewhat. To counter this I have a range of mannerism which are pretty random such that one cannot put a read on me because I act erratically in respect of handling chips, talking, looking etc. This suits me better and it also allows me to give off false tells to idiots. And I agree with Dev, it makes no big difference to me if I'm bluffing or betting the nuts, if you are sufficiently rolled for your game then no hand should matter all that much to you.

I have difficulty not smiling or breaking out laughing when someone stares me down and I quite regularly stick my tongue out at them. I find it funny because they are usually morons who do it and I know full well they haven't got a notion what they are looking for or even how my confidence relates to their equity. I mean I tell people what I have sometimes and they still make a bad call.

As for when to look at your cards I tend to look at them in between 1st getting them and it being on me. Though I admit I play my cards blind probably more than 99.99% of players.

Requiem4adream

musician wrote: »

I've always wondered about the waiting your turn to look at your cards. In fact it seems the general wisdom that only fish look at them immediately. I honestly believe it doesn't really matter particularly if you have enough experience. In fact an inexperienced player who waits his turn to look at his cards will have every players eyes on him at that moment and may give away more. Looking at them straight away means no eyes will be on you and you can take some extra time to decide what to do while observing players and waiting for your turn to act. I think the pros and cons even out here.

Agree with this - i dont play much live but depending on my mood i might insta-look at them or wait. As for missing out on what others are doing, picking up facial tells etc i think it's massively over-rated, i wouldnt even have a clue what i'm looking for in the first place.

For an inexperienced player i'd recommend looking at them right away in early positions, just gives ya a bit of extra time to formulate a p.o.a without 8 eagle eyes staring at ya... Although like i said i doubt most of them have a clue what they're looking for either :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

i remember when i first made the transition from live to online, occasionally when faced with a tough decision i found myself staring intently at the guys avatar, never got anything out of the ****ers though.

cooker3

So when you see someone's pulse racing they have a very polarised range. Amirite?

mormank

lol. i have loads of tells. but only more experienced players can see them, or so im told anyway. ive never been one for tryin to conceal my hand but i find that if i have the nuts i talk alot...

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

eddiehead

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They either think they have a huge hand or are bluffing. But when it's live their perception of which is which may be laughably incorrect!!

Agreed, this is the one thing that often catches me out when dealing with weak players, how do you read somebody who doesnt know the strength of his hand? It can be very frustrating

Mont

Appreciate the replies - good stuff there

And i am going to take some of this advice onboard - so in my next live tournament i am going to pop 2 yokes, a gramme of charlie and down a bottle of cough syrup - reckon this should be enough to throw my opponents, they wont have a clue what i have when my eyes are rolling at the back of my head (downside neither will i) but seriously i think im gonna try 2 things - the advice about keeping my tongue touching my teeth and also concentrate on a spot on the table.
I thought about maybe a hoodie and shades or maybe a Charles Bronsonesque mask but then thats just not me.

davidgti

Mont wrote: »

Appreciate the replies - good stuff there

And i am going to take some of this advice onboard - so in my next live tournament i am going to pop 2 yokes, a gramme of charlie and down a bottle of cough syrup - reckon this should be enough to throw my opponents, they wont have a clue what i have when my eyes are rolling at the back of my head (downside neither will i) but seriously i think im gonna try 2 things - the advice about keeping my tongue touching my teeth and also concentrate on a spot on the table.
I thought about maybe a hoodie and shades or maybe a Charles Bronsonesque mask but then thats just not me.

gl in your next live event,some great tips there for you good thread & great posting...

The_Chopper

Mont wrote: »

Anyone got any tips on how not to look like a total bluffing gimp when bluffing - sometimes when i bluff i know i look like it eg blushing and just generally looking weak and totally suspect

If you've ever seen Phil Helmuth play when he has his hands up to his face and stares blankly at the table, that's a good stance to take. But you will also have to do this when you're not bluffing

DeVore

Dont go down the cap and shades route to solve your problem, it will just make you dependant on them.

Adrenaline control and heart control are two of the old staples of martial arts and are fairly basic conditioning. I used to have an extremely bad temper and still do but I control it far better now as a result of adrenaline control. Its not a case of not getting a rush, you can't stop the rush, its the body's reaction to a "perilous" situation. But you can change its effect. Normally adrenaline is part of the "fight or flight" response and either serves to make you angry or make you run. In both cases it dumps a lot of "immediate" energy into the system to enable you to execute which ever decision you come to. Martial artists harness that to give them energy in a fight but control the impulse to attack or flee.

One point is that new players can't control this dump of adrenaline and since it would be consider improper to smack the head off your opponent or run off like a gazelle, their bodies have no outlet for all this energy. Often this exhibits as "the shakes". Since a player who is bluffing is more conscious of his physical body and actions they are more likely to conceal the shakes from you. A new player who's hand is shaking is a danger.

I learned to not get angry by getting hit a lot. My sensei would slap the head off me until I was well angry and then have me spar in a very controlled fashion. (he told me this was good practise, maybe he just wanted to slap the head off me... heeyyyyyy!!)
The trick is not to fight it, let it arrive, anticipate it in a sense, let it wash over you, drop your shoulders and relax, then take a slow, controlled deep breath over say 4 seconds, and then push it all down into your stomach and take control again and get very "cold" mentally. Its hard to describe but the more times you are in that situation the more natural it will become and the less obvious you will be

Heart control is similarly controlled by the mind and breathing, its a question of being mentally calm (like clearing your mind before meditation, if you do that) and physically relaxing while breathing deeply but not too deeply.

As i said, after a while you will become conditioned and inured to the "excitment".

DeV.

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I tend to be quite the tellbox most of the time.

LL gives a strength tell

5starpool

Much more fun to smack them though.

YULETIRED

DeVore wrote: »

"
I learned to not get angry by getting hit a lot. My sensei would slap the head off me until I was well angry and then have me spar in a very controlled fashion. (he told me this was good practise, maybe he just wanted to slap the head off me... heeyyyyyy!!)

DeV.

I did shotokan many years ago for 4 years, the whole idea of this was to avoid people slapping me on the head and making me angry. Usually it was in the form of a block . Blocking relaxes you as you then know the bugger is too slow to take you.....if he does mangage to get a slap off, be sure to get angry. There is no point in paying good money so some guru can slap the head off you. Learn to block...

for Bluffs, have you tried saying to yourself over and over....I've got the nuts, I've got the nuts. I frequently manage to convince myself of this
and sometimes leave scratching my head wondering what happened. I think this is becuase my timing is off, it best not to bluff people who actually have the nuts. reenforcement works though. (IMO)

Killme00

DeVore wrote: »

Adrenaline control and heart control are two of the old staples of martial arts and are fairly basic conditioning. I used to have an extremely bad temper and still do but I control it far better now as a result of adrenaline control. Its not a case of not getting a rush, you can't stop the rush, its the body's reaction to a "perilous" situation. But you can change its effect. Normally adrenaline is part of the "fight or flight" response and either serves to make you angry or make you run. In both cases it dumps a lot of "immediate" energy into the system to enable you to execute which ever decision you come to. Martial artists harness that to give them energy in a fight but control the impulse to attack or flee.

Good post.

I would like to add that it is all down to your conditioning also. If you have played alot of poker, you can control you impulses alot better and think better under pressure. The same when it comes to a fight or sparring, you soon forget your fear and learn to control your anxiety and think clearly bout what you wnat to achieve.

In regards to tells, physical tells can be useful but the tells derived from betting patterns and sizes are priceless.