Electronic dole payments to be scrapped

Flamed Diving

The Minister for Social and Family Affairs has announced a crackdown on social welfare fraud targeting Irish and foreign workers who continue to claim the dole despite no longer living or working in Ireland.
Ms Hanafin said today that claimants will have to sign on at post offices weekly, rather than have the payments made automatically to them.
Speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland , Ms Hanafin said the Department had made an immediate saving of around €1.5 million in its investigation of some 2,000 people or about 10 per cent of those on the Live Register who were not currently living in Ireland or seeking work here.

She said that across the scheme of social welfare payments, officials were targeting savings of between €530m to €540 million.

The Minister said with around 7,500 people signing on to the Live Register every week who need to get their money efficiently, officials had to ensure that only people who were entitled to social welfare were getting the money.

Under the current monitoring and investigation process by around 600 Department officials, Ms Hanafin said that those suspected of continuing to claim social welfare in Ireland, but who have subsequently left the country, could be prosecuted under European Union welfare rules.
Currently, those claiming benefits must sign on at their local social welfare office once a month, though payments are made weekly at post offices, or directly into bank accounts.
Now, payments will have to be collected weekly from post offices.
If the payment is not collected within the week it will be cancelled and the claimant will have to go to their Social Welfare Office to get it back.
Ms Hanafin denied that this move would lead to stigmatizing claimants, saying there would be no special dole queues and people could choose the post office they wanted to collect their money from.

Its funny, this has always been a problem but people are only willing to take action when times are tight. Still, I think this is a good move although I hope they don't apply this to the disabled.

CtrlSource

This is a good move. It seems to be too easy to defraud the system, so it's good to see this being scrapped.

i'm not sure if the same method will be removed for Disability Allowance payments though. i wouldn't think so? Maybe they'll just do a full audit of the recipients

Flamed Diving

It should save the Exchequer a few quid anyway. I personally know a few people who are scamming the system. I don't blame them for it, as you said it has been made too easy for them to do so.

ninty9er

It should ESPECIALLY apply to disability. There are people labouring on building sites or working in warehouses all over the country claiming disability!!

Sleepy

How will this save money?

An Post (who if I'm not mistaken are still a heavily unionised state owned enterprise) will need extra staff (no doubt hired on typical public sector pensionable permanent terms) to deal with the extra workload created by a massively expanding live register. There'll be extra security costs to the transporting of the cash necessary to make the payments. Add in the necessary millions to advertise the new scheme and the obligatory 'PR consultants' and you'll be spending far more than will be saved from the minority of new sign ons that are fraudulent. Never mind trying to learn from the recent UK experience of saving about 10% of the outlay on their dole clampdown. Nor the additional burden on the banking system from all these new welfare recipients lodging their cash to meet their standing orders, direct debits etc.

I'd wager that most benefit frauds are already comfortably set up on the electronic system so any claims that these swindlers will be dealt with through this move are simply lies. Hanafin couldn't answer any of Matt Cooper's questions on the Last Word yesterday evening.

It's a total PR move to be seen to do something about 'these feckin foridners rippin' off our dole money' if you ask me. It's a step backwards and if Paddy Power are offering evens that it'll cost the government more than they save from the measure, I'll put down a hefty wager.

Nevyn

It will clogg up the post offices so that it will become even harder to get in and buy stamps or send parcels which is after all why the post office was created after all.

Why can't they go collect thier money at the socail welfar offices ?

All of the post offices in d15 are jammed and the big state of the art welfare office is empty.

ejmaztec

It would be more cost-effective to employ more investigators and leave things as they are.

In relatively small communities, it seems that the world and his father knows who is getting away with scamming the system, but nothing is ever done about them. Everybody seems to have a scrounging neighbour. Once in a blue moon, when one of these famous people is caught, they don't lose out. I know of one guy who was called into a Social Welfare office, to be told that his dole was to be stopped. The reason given was that he had somehow managed to acquire a brand new car. The guy immediately applied for carer's allowance instead - and got it.

Occasionally, there are raids on certain employers, where a few people are caught, but the "professionals" aren't stupid enough to involve themselves in the more vulnerable activities.

kmick

I am not unemployed but could you not just get your mate to turn up with your little white social services card which they swipe. There is no picture on that card.

As well as the fact you still have to turn up every two weeks to sign on. Is the government expecting us to believe that there are people who fly in every two weeks to get the dole? I know Ryanair is cheap mind...

axer

I think they should have left the payments system as it was but just make people sign on every week instead.

Liam Byrne

I think it's hilarious (if it weren't so serious).....

They should have clamped down on this sort of fraud (as well as the "surplus staff" and the overspending on pointless offices and cars in Dail Eireann) BEFORE NOW....then maybe the country might have enough in the coffers to see us through this blip, or might even (shock, horror) have decent alternative energy sources and public transport!!!!

But instead, the money's gone / horse bolted and NOW they're finally clamping down on the waste.... idiots!

Latchy

Thaedydal wrote: »

It will clogg up the post offices so that it will become even harder to get in and buy stamps or send parcels which is after all why the post office was created after all.

Why can't they go collect thier money at the socail welfar offices ?

All of the post offices in d15 are jammed and the big state of the art welfare office is empty.

The demorilising humiliating dole Q's of the 70 and 80's which in some cases use to stretch out of the street is not i would imagine what most people would like to go back to but it was common back then to see guys turn up outside the dole office in commercial vans with signs like ' johns electricals ' and a lot lot of guys were not shy of turning up in the painted overalls to advertise the fact they were also working ,twas quite common back then .

lostexpectation

i suspect this idea will be scrapped

who's yer one?

this is just for new claimants though, right? people already on the dole can still get it into their banks? s'what i heard. so the a-holes who are claiming illegitimately are still getting away with it, and the new system just stops new fraudsters.
im a dolemonkey myself (please god not for much longer). the dole qs of the 70s + 80s are gone, yes, but it's still pretty demoralising to have to go into that office and have staff look at you like youre scum. (hi, uh, life on the dole's, not so sweet, dude, i dont Want to be here, so enough of the stink eye please) the lady in our post office is a nosy bint, so i really don't want to have to deal with her every week.

(with any luck i won't have to deal with any of em much longer- interview tomoorow so everyone cross yr limbs for me or else ill keep sucking your taxes )

Victor

ninty9er wrote: »

It should ESPECIALLY apply to disability. There are people labouring on building sites or working in warehouses all over the country claiming disability!!

As is their entitlement. I suggest you look up the rules.

Victor

Sleepy wrote: »

An Post (who if I'm not mistaken are still a heavily unionised state owned enterprise) will need extra staff (no doubt hired on typical public sector pensionable permanent terms) to deal with the extra workload created by a massively expanding live register.

The vast majority of sub-post offices (ordinary post offices to you and me) are franchises where the franchisee is paid on a fixed fee + transaction fee basis. Only main Post Offices have An Post staff.

There'll be extra security costs to the transporting of the cash necessary to make the payments.

I wonder how much of that there is, post offices tend to recycle a lot of their cash money coming in from sales goes out in welfare payments.

Add in the necessary millions to advertise the new scheme and the obligatory 'PR consultants' and you'll be spending far more than will be saved from the minority of new sign ons that are fraudulent.

No PR. No consultants.

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

As is their entitlement. I suggest you look up the rules.

I suspect Victor is referring to "Disablement Benefit" whereby one is assessed at a specific level and either recieves a weekly payment OR a Lump Sum in compensation.

One can legally work and be a recipient of this payment...However Disability Benefit is a horse of a different colour !!! :eek:

donaghs

I don't think the aim of this is to have any sort of lengthy interrogation. From what I understand, the claimant simply has to show up with the relevant ID, and collect their payment. Shouldn't be a major headache to implement this. Makes sense.

The main aim of this is to cut out certain types of fraud. E.g. living in another country but continuing to collect your Irish dole from a bank account.
E.g. collecting dole payments from bank accounts of other people (real or imaginary).


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-welfare-cheaters-who-tried-to-beat-the-system-62263.html
"A Chinese woman, stopped at Dublin airport while returning here with a child in November, had been in China since August 2005. Nonetheless, she had been in continuous receipt of child benefit payments. "

Victor

ninty9er wrote: »

It should ESPECIALLY apply to disability. There are people labouring on building sites or working in warehouses all over the country claiming disability!!

There are different payments for people who are ill or disabled. So someone who suffers from stress and claiming Illness Benefit (formerly Disability Benefit), but works up to about 20 hours a week can retain some / many of their benefits.

http://www.welfare.ie/schemes/ill/index.html

Sleepy

Victor wrote: »

The vast majority of sub-post offices (ordinary post offices to you and me) are franchises where the franchisee is paid on a fixed fee + transaction fee basis. Only main Post Offices have An Post staff.

Ok, so increased transaction fees then. Not as big a cost and no unsackable staff makes this a little more reasonable. I'm presuming here but I still think this would be more expensive than electronic processing? AFAIK, the banks don't charge transaction fees for welfare accounts due to the large overnight balances and the interest they accrue on them / boost of their liquidity position.

I wonder how much of that there is, post offices tend to recycle a lot of their cash money coming in from sales goes out in welfare payments.

Increased pay-outs of cash will not necessarily mean an increase in cash coming in. Again, I'm making an assumption here but I would imagine that paying out more social welfare would have a major impact on most post offices cash flow.

No PR. No consultants.

Really? This surprises me massively. I didn't see any mention of something so sensible in any of the articles so far.

I do still think that the savings on fraudulent payments on this will be minimal.

Tea drinker

Sounds like a reasonable approach given the absentee problem they claim they have.

Firetrap

Anything that helps reduce fraud is good. I knew a Polish guy who decided to jack in his job and trek around South America for a few months. The guy's plan was to sign on, then go on his holiday and have the money paid into his bank account while he was away. Or at least that was the plan til I pointed out the small matter of having to sign on.

Truth is, none of us knows how much fraud is being carried out. But anything that can reduce it is good. Nobody likes to have to physically go and collect their money (I was that soldier a long time ago and it was horrible) but if that's what has to be done that's a good thing.