Karadzic

ilovemybrick

Reuters reporting Radovan Karadzic arrested.

On this note, if it is true would it make more sense to see him prosecuted by his own country or in the Hague?

ejmaztec

I think that it would have to be The Hague as it might be easier to protect witnesses from intimidation.

Denis Irwin

Bosnian Serb war crimes suspect Radovan Karadzic, one of the world's most wanted men, has been arrested in Serbia after more than a decade.
His capture has been confirmed by Serbia's president and government.
The Bosnian Serb wartime political leader disappeared in 1996 and was subsequently indicted by the UN War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague.
He is accused of war crimes and genocide over the massacre of 7,500 Muslim men and boys at Srebrenica. His wartime military leader, Ratko Mladic, remains at large.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7518543.stm

The long arm of the law has finally caught up with Karadzic.

wes

Good news to see the man finally arrested. It would be best to send him to the Hague.

It also look like, that the Serbian government are responsible for the capture, which is also good news.

mike65

Just haul him in front of a tv feed and blow his head off.

Mike.

juvenal

mike65 wrote: »

Just haul him in front of a tv feed and blow his head off.

Mike.

I think it's because of actions like this he was wanted in the first place

Although, I can see the argument for that. . .

Partizan

The imperialist media are in overdrive gloating over this one. According to Sky News, Karadzic was the leader of Serbia

Serb bashing is back in vogue.

No doubt an odious character but is there any chance we'll see Dubya, Clinton and Blair brought before the Hague to account for their crimes (respectively) in the bombing of YU in '99 and the invasion of Iraq on '03 which has cost nearly 1 million lives.

Nah dont think so.

But then Thaci, Ceku, Oric and Haradinaj are swaggering around as free men.

Its also seems that the US was protecting him too.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-and-the-us-accused-of-secret-deal-to-protect-karadzic-401688.html

More to this than meets the eye.

Fratton Fred

Partizan wrote: »

The imperialist media are in overdrive gloating over this one. According to Sky News, Karadzic was the leader of Serbia

Serb bashing is back in vogue.

No doubt an odious character but is there any chance we'll see Dubya, Clinton and Blair brought before the Hague to account for their crimes (respectively) in the bombing of YU in '99 and the invasion of Iraq on '03 which has cost nearly 1 million lives.

Nah dont think so.

But then Thaci, Ceku, Oric and Haradinaj are swaggering around as free men.

Its also seems that the US was protecting him too.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-and-the-us-accused-of-secret-deal-to-protect-karadzic-401688.html

More to this than meets the eye.

no there isn't. he is reportedly responsible for ethnically cleansing thousands of Muslims, he has been caught and will be tried hopefully in the Hague.

what is complicated about that.

mike65

A quick bullet to the head would be a less traumatic solution, I think we can look forward to an extended period of arguement and shennanigans before he even takes the stand as he was caught by Serbia authorities not the UN.

He'll be the focus point for the Ultra element "which hasn't gone away you know". It could get very messy.

Bombing "Yugoslavia" was a perfectly correct tatic in 99 and was only wrong in being several years too late.

Mike

Partizan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no there isn't. he is reportedly responsible for ethnically cleansing thousands of Muslims, he has been caught and will be tried hopefully in the Hague.

what is complicated about that.

Can you please answer the question that I posed. Why were the US and Russians protecting him up to quite recently?

Secondly will we see Bush and Blair on trial for crimes? Is that not so complicated too?

Partizan

mike65 wrote: »

A quick bullet to the head would be a less traumatic solution, I think we can look forward to an extended period of arguement and shennanigans before he even takes the stand as he was caught by Serbia authorities not the UN.

He'll be the focus point for the Ultra element "which hasn't gone away you know". It could get very messy.

Bombing "Yugoslavia" was a perfectly correct tatic in 99 and was only wrong in being several years too late.

Mike

Mike, the bombing of YU was not "a correct tatic[sic]". It violated international law as well as NATO's own Charter of self defense. What happened in Kosovo was that an illegal terrorist, fascist drug trafficking group known as the KLA had been targeting and killing Yugoslav police, postmen, civil servants ad loyal Yugoslav citizens for years with the aim of driving out Serbs, Roma, Jews and any one suspected of supporting the state, even Albanians. It is interesting that less than a year prior to the attack, the KLA was identified by the US State Department as a terrorist organisation which they were/are.

Prior to the bombing the Yugoslav delegation arrived at the Rambouillet Talks willing to grant the K-Albanians full autonomy but however Albright delieberatley wanted war by inserting a clause in the agreement that called for the full NATO occupation of Yugoslavia. Belgrade naturally refused and so was the excuse to attack. The exodus of refugees we saw was the result of a heavy bombing campaign which caused a break down of law and order in which militias on both sides went on the rampage.

The war had in the end nothing to do with 'saving the Kosovars'. It was all about establishing Anglo-American imperialist hegemony over the Balkans. It furthered the cause of Albanian irredentist nationalism which has seen many Serbs, Roma and Jews leeing their homes. What we have now in Kosovo is a puppet state that is economical basket case with no economy or any means to become someway self sufficient.

The direct legacy of the Yugoslav war is that it set the precedence for the invasion of Iraq. Kosovo was the model to pre-empt 'a humanitarian intervention', the neo-liberal excuse to invade a sovereign state. By getting away with Kosovo, the US knew it could do likewise with Iraq. Instead of the so called 'ethnic cleansing of Kosovars and mass killings' we got the WMD hokey cokey with Iraq and guess what there trying it again with Iran.

mike65

Better to make the Balkans a client region of the west than Russia if that is the game.

Mike.

Fratton Fred

Partizan wrote: »

Can you please answer the question that I posed. Why were the US and Russians protecting him up to quite recently?

these are allegations in a book, maybe they were, maybe they weren't protecting him, but he should still be put on trial.

Partizan wrote: »

Secondly will we see Bush and Blair on trial for crimes? Is that not so complicated too?

No, of course we are not. It just ain't gonna happen. What has this to do with the topic though?

Fratton Fred

Partizan wrote: »

The war had in the end nothing to do with 'saving the Kosovars'. It was all about establishing Anglo-American imperialist hegemony over the Balkans. It furthered the cause of Albanian irredentist nationalism which has seen many Serbs, Roma and Jews leeing their homes. What we have now in Kosovo is a puppet state that is economical basket case with no economy or any means to become someway self sufficient.

oh please. it was all about oil I suppose?

is_that_so

Partizan wrote: »

Can you please answer the question that I posed. Why were the US and Russians protecting him up to quite recently?

Secondly will we see Bush and Blair on trial for crimes? Is that not so complicated too?

These are suggestions in a news article about allegations in a book. Not a really promising point to start in my view. There is evidence that he was involved in ethnic cleansing therefore he should stand trial. Not sure where this "charge them all" approach is going . Unfortunately Serbia disagrees and with the carrot of EU membership they are keen to address elements of the unsavoury past , something I would assume everyone would welcome.

Equally unfortunate is how clientism operates in this world of ours. Countries with strong geopolitical influence rarely get implicated however hard we try. The abuses of Abu Ghraib and other events in Iraq and Afghanistan are examples that such aspects of conflict will not be and should not be tolerated. Furthermore separating out who did who often leads to selective myopia as to who is really guilty of what.

ilovemybrick

Partizan wrote: »

No doubt an odious character but is there any chance we'll see Dubya, Clinton and Blair brought before the Hague to account for their crimes (respectively) in the bombing of YU in '99 and the invasion of Iraq on '03 which has cost nearly 1 million lives.

Nah dont think so.

Thats why i asked the original question.

Fratton Fred

ilovemybrick wrote: »

Thats why i asked the original question.

christ on a bike. The man tried to wipe out an entire race of people, if it wasn't for NATO intervention, he may well have succeeded. He is going on trial, finally. where is the debate, what does this have to do with Bush or Blair or Clinton?

humberklog

Perhaps the time is right for him to be tried in Belgrave. It could be an important lithmus test of how Serbia is facing up to its recent past and how it perceives itself in the future. The trial going to the Hague (which it undoubtedly will) will blur the focus of a larger picture.

Of course the dude has to stand trial. That's not saying he's guilty...just that there looks like a lotta questions he should be answering to determine if he'd direct input into some of the Serbian attrocities.

Bush, Blair ffs! Let the separate discussions be just that. It's far more interesting and informative (and grown up!) when a topic is contained.

mike65

I just saw the picture of him, he looks like a slightly dotty professor. Shock of white and beard. The Serbs nationalists were already making thier presence felt, a trial in Belgrade would be near impossible I'd say.

Mike.

juvenal

mike65 wrote: »

I just saw the picture of him, he looks like a slightly dotty professor. Shock of white and beard. The Serbs nationalists were already making thier presence felt, a trial in Belgrade would be near impossible I'd say.

Mike.

A combination photo shows Bosnian Serb wartime leader Karadzic, left, in a recent photo released to media and in the Bosnian town of Bijeljina in 1995, right. The fugitive was arrested near Belgrade where he lived posing as a doctor of alternative medicine, sporting long hair, a beard and glasses to hide his face.

SkepticOne

Email: healingwounds@dragandabic.com

Here's his website: http://dragandabic.com/

Dr. Dragan "David" Dabic was born some 60 years ago in a small Serbian village of Kovaci, near Kraljevo. As a young boy he liked to explore nearby forests and mountains, spending a lot of time on Kopaonik mountain where he tended to pick the omnipresent natural and potent medicinal herbs that grew there. As a young man he moved to Belgrade, and then on to Moscow where he graduated with a Psychiatry degree at the Moscow State University (Lomonosov). After Russia, Dr. Dabic travelled around India and Japan, after which he settled in China where he specialized in alternative medicine, with special emphasis on Chinese herbs. In mid 1990s Dr. Dabic returned back to mother Serbia for good.

Ever since, Dr. Dabic emerged as one of the most prominent experts in the field of alternative medicine, bioenergy, and macrobiotic diet in the whole of the Balkans, and is frequent guest on many forums, seminars and symposiums (Belgrade, Novi Sad, Pancevo, Sombor, Smederevo...) dedicated to these topics.

For panel invitations or private consultations Dr. Dragan Dabic can be reached at the following contact:

healingwounds@dragandabic.com

dresden8

Partizan wrote: »

Can you please answer the question that I posed. Why were the US and Russians protecting him up to quite recently?

Secondly will we see Bush and Blair on trial for crimes? Is that not so complicated too?

Politics is dirty and international politics is a sewer.

Maybe they told him "f*ck off and we won't look for you". Not the cleanest tactic but maybe it stopped a full on war which might have threatened to drag Russia in. Could have been the best solution at the time.

Same as the best solution for Zimbabwe is some **** hole takes in Mugabe after he flees the country rather than go for a full on civil war. ****ty deal which lets a prick off the hook, but maybe the better option.

Anybody remember Amin?

Tea drinker

Fratton Fred wrote: »

christ on a bike. The man tried to wipe out an entire race of people, if it wasn't for NATO intervention, he may well have succeeded. He is going on trial, finally. where is the debate, what does this have to do with Bush or Blair or Clinton?

It was a civil war, and both sides are guilty. The UN is also guilty for allowing strikes on civilian areas from it's areas (safe havens) and the serbs are guilty of hitting those areas in retailiation.
A lot of the 8000 men were killed in action, not in cold blood.
Ok, what happened there was a war crime, and he should be tried, and any evidence he has of foreign agents working in this region should be used, but it won't. Interesting that in Kosovo the allegations of kidnappings / people trafficking / organ harvesting were kept quiet until it was convenient to quietly release the info. When the local councillor was asked in Albania he said: I don't give a sh!t if serbs had organs harvested here, they deserved it. End of.
Why can't we have the same attitude for Serbs? Look at the precursor for the NATO bombing in Kosovo. A village was raided by Serb police units, they invited the press along to see the operation. The CIA operatives were there too observing the whole thing in full view. (but this is the time the Serbs pick to commit a warcrime) The next day it looks like a massacre with people lined up in a ditch, execution style, except according to the danish team investigating it there were doubts they were killed there in those clothes or that any executions took place, likely died instead from combat.

We have a situation in Iraq where if US units are fired upon they have orders to kill everyone - just open up all around you. (on civilians) Is this different? Tell me why?
We have towns being stormed, indiscriminate shelling, white phosporous used, and scores of civilians, women kids too.
Tell me why this is different?
Check out the Winter soldier statements on youtube, or practically any youtube video of Iraq for warcrimes.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=winter+soldier&search_type=&aq=f

Pre Yugoslav war there was a huge uprising of nationalism and Nazism in Croatia, they have some practice in this after all. They removed serbs from state positions, then started ethnic cleansing serbs from Croatia, and Serbs proteced themselves from what looked like a repeat of the ethnic cleansing in WW2, where even the SS offficers were disturbed. Is it any wonder there was a move to protect Serbs? (This move to protect the serbs in Croatia that were being killed and cleansed is where the Greater Serbia crap you hear comes from)
OK - yes, it descended into the depths of hell after this like any civil war, and we must root out war criminals, and they should be tried. (fairly and equitably)

But why not go after the architects of this disaster? the ones who broke up Yugoslavia? Why not Do like USA and bomb a couple of countries until they (don't) give up someone? Why did USA work so hard to break up .yu? Why was there German government agents working in Croatia for years to stir and finance Nationalist (and Nazi) parties and tendencies? Why did German Minister Genscher (I think) say that the thing he is most proud of in his career is the break up of yugoslavia? This is after the massacres... what kind of sick person or regime would ever associate themselves with this?

FFS look at Maggie's love affair with theat sicko Pinochet.... but he was a "helpful" guy in the past so had to be rewarded. Sick, sick people run the world. What about the way she treated catholics in the north? what about the warcrimes there? How many para's are in prison?
Yes Karadzic should be locked up, it's good for everyone, maybe even him.
I am just sick of the bias and double standards applied to War criminals.
And I'm sick of the Anti Serb crap in the meedja. And mostly sick of people baying for blood. These are the same type of easily led people that can be riled up to commit warcrimes.

Bobo78

Tea_Drinker i agree with you.

+1

Fratton Fred

Tea drinker wrote: »

It was a civil war, and both sides are guilty. The UN is also guilty for allowing strikes on civilian areas from it's areas (safe havens) and the serbs are guilty of hitting those areas in retailiation.
A lot of the 8000 men were killed in action, not in cold blood.
Ok, what happened there was a war crime, and he should be tried, and any evidence he has of foreign agents working in this region should be used, but it won't. Interesting that in Kosovo the allegations of kidnappings / people trafficking / organ harvesting were kept quiet until it was convenient to quietly release the info. When the local councillor was asked in Albania he said: I don't give a sh!t if serbs had organs harvested here, they deserved it. End of.
Why can't we have the same attitude for Serbs? Look at the precursor for the NATO bombing in Kosovo. A village was raided by Serb police units, they invited the press along to see the operation. The CIA operatives were there too observing the whole thing in full view. (but this is the time the Serbs pick to commit a warcrime) The next day it looks like a massacre with people lined up in a ditch, execution style, except according to the danish team investigating it there were doubts they were killed there in those clothes or that any executions took place, likely died instead from combat.

We have a situation in Iraq where if US units are fired upon they have orders to kill everyone - just open up all around you. (on civilians) Is this different? Tell me why?
We have towns being stormed, indiscriminate shelling, white phosporous used, and scores of civilians, women kids too.
Tell me why this is different?
Check out the Winter soldier statements on youtube, or practically any youtube video of Iraq for warcrimes.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=winter+soldier&search_type=&aq=f

Pre Yugoslav war there was a huge uprising of nationalism and Nazism in Croatia, they have some practice in this after all. They removed serbs from state positions, then started ethnic cleansing serbs from Croatia, and Serbs proteced themselves from what looked like a repeat of the ethnic cleansing in WW2, where even the SS offficers were disturbed. Is it any wonder there was a move to protect Serbs? (This move to protect the serbs in Croatia that were being killed and cleansed is where the Greater Serbia crap you hear comes from)
OK - yes, it descended into the depths of hell after this like any civil war, and we must root out war criminals, and they should be tried. (fairly and equitably)

But why not go after the architects of this disaster? the ones who broke up Yugoslavia? Why not Do like USA and bomb a couple of countries until they (don't) give up someone? Why did USA work so hard to break up .yu? Why was there German government agents working in Croatia for years to stir and finance Nationalist (and Nazi) parties and tendencies? Why did German Minister Genscher (I think) say that the thing he is most proud of in his career is the break up of yugoslavia? This is after the massacres... what kind of sick person or regime would ever associate themselves with this?

FFS look at Maggie's love affair with theat sicko Pinochet.... but he was a "helpful" guy in the past so had to be rewarded. Sick, sick people run the world. What about the way she treated catholics in the north? what about the warcrimes there? How many para's are in prison?
Yes Karadzic should be locked up, it's good for everyone, maybe even him.
I am just sick of the bias and double standards applied to War criminals.
And I'm sick of the Anti Serb crap in the meedja. And mostly sick of people baying for blood. These are the same type of easily led people that can be riled up to commit warcrimes.

Is Karadzic a war criminal or not? hopefully we will find out the truth and justice will be metered out accordingly.

the rest is irrelevant to this thread, what point are you trying to make.

this may come as a shock, but the world is not a perfect place.

Tea drinker

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is Karadzic a war criminal or not? hopefully we will find out the truth and justice will be metered out accordingly.

the rest is irrelevant to this thread, what point are you trying to make.

this may come as a shock, but the world is not a perfect place.

I agree, I do hope justice is metered out, justice for all as they say. In fact it's high time all the victims got justice.

So, nail warcriminals to the cross, but hey, if they are our guys,
*shrug* the world is not a perfect place.
An ironic statement there Fratton Fred.

My point is that a lot of the "facts" that are presented to us are not truth, but the inverse of truth. i.e. keep an open mind.

Bobo78

Fratton Fred wrote: »

christ on a bike. The man tried to wipe out an entire race of people, if it wasn't for NATO intervention, he may well have succeeded. He is going on trial, finally. where is the debate, what does this have to do with Bush or Blair or Clinton?

For your information before the "Srebrenica" happened, there was as well a "massacre" of 3000 Serb people by Bosnian Muslims which happened between 1992 and 1995 and no one will ever go to trial for that.
And that was before the "Srebrenica Massacre".
And there is no mention in the British or American media about it all.
That just tells you how politics is dirty and how they use media to achieve their goals (politicians). And its not true that Serbs were the only who were killing. Croatians and Bosnian musilims are not that innocent as some countries are representing them to be.

Fratton Fred

Tea drinker wrote: »

I agree, I do hope justice is metered out, justice for all as they say. In fact it's high time all the victims got justice.

So, nail warcriminals to the cross, but hey, if they are our guys,
*shrug* the world is not a perfect place.
An ironic statement there Fratton Fred.

My point is that a lot of the "facts" that are presented to us are not truth, but the inverse of truth. i.e. keep an open mind.

I wouldn't disagree with you at all, but you can't win all the battles, sometimes you have to take whatever small victory you can get.

Fratton Fred

Bobo78 wrote: »

For your information before the "Srebrenica" happened, there was as well a "massacre" of 3000 Serb people by Bosnian Muslims which happened between 1992 and 1995 and no one will ever go to trial for that.
And that was before the "Srebrenica Massacre".
And there is no mention in the British or American media about it all.
That just tells you how politics is dirty and how they use media to achieve their goals (politicians). And its not true that Serbs were the only who were killing. Croatians and Bosnian musilims are not that innocent as some countries are representing them to be.

I don't doubt it, like most civil wars it was bloody and hate fuelled. that still does not detract from the fact that this guy needs to go on trial.

i take it that all non British and American media did publicise it then.

Bobo78

Fratton Fred wrote: »

christ on a bike. The man tried to wipe out an entire race of people, if it wasn't for NATO intervention, he may well have succeeded. He is going on trial, finally. where is the debate, what does this have to do with Bush or Blair or Clinton?

For your information before the "Srebrenica" happened, there was as well a "massacre" of 3000 Serb people by Bosnian Muslims which happened between 1992 and 1995 and no one will ever go to trial for that.
And that was before the "Srebrenica Massacre".
And there is no mention in the British or American media about it all.
That just tells you how politics is dirty and how they use media to achieve their goals (politicians). And its not true that Serbs were the only who were killing. Croatians and Bosnian musilims are not that innocent as some countries are representing them to be.

P.S. In the Nato bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 there was as well killed 3000 Serb civilians, they said they would bomb only military targets, but they were bombing car factory, cigarette's factory, tv stations, bridges in city centers, regional hospital in Belgrade while there were sick and injured people there, airports as well.
And will Tony Blair and Bill Clinton go to trial for that, I don't think so, they can invade Iraq, Afghanistan and even Iran and kill milions of people and to them that would all be justified.

Bobo78

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't doubt it, like most civil wars it was bloody and hate fuelled. that still does not detract from the fact that this guy needs to go on trial.

i take it that all non British and American media did publicise it then.

I m not saying that he shouldn't go to trial, he should, but then the others from Croatian and Bosnian Muslims side go as well.
And i bet you that Karadzic will get at least 25 years in prison for all that happened in Bosnia, but the gay (Naser Oric) that was responsible for killings of these Serbs in Bosnia from 1992 to 1995 was freed by Hague about 2 months ago. Where s the justice in that?

So it seems that only justice by Americans and British is to blame the Serbia and Serb people for everything. Even thou the Bosnian Muslims and Croatians had a big role in the war in the Yugoslavia in the 1990's,
and the fact that they were killing as well.

P.S. i don't know whether it was published or not in the other media, but i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't and if it was it would probably be just mentioned in the 20 second time, and forgoten straight away.