What makes a song a certain key?

Tom-eg

I am struggling to understand this. What i understand is that whatever scale the notes in the song fall into thats the key it is in? But if you had something limited like a 3 chord trick surely those 3 chords could fall into a few different keys? How do you know which key is the right one?

So to help me out here i'll give an example. If i have a song with the chords A, G, C and D what key would it be in and explain to me why. Cheers

SmileyPaul

I dont know how it works on the guitar but for most pieces of music when there is a key signature i.e. the key of D, all f's and c's are made sharp thats all it is

Rustar

Two things would describe a key signature in a 3-chord song -

a.) The sum total of all accidentals (sharps or flats) you find in those chords would give you the tonality. (This is, of course, assuming that all chords stay in the key signature of the song)

b.) The tonic or root chord, which your ear will tell you that the other chords always want to 'resolve' to. Generally the chord that the most time is spent on in the song.

Krsnik87

I was told the other day if you take the first chord of a song and bring the root 3 frets up that is the key you are in.

-=al=-

sounds pretty crazy ^

u can tell by the notes/chords being played usually and what sounds like the root chord/note u can make out when the piece resolves...

stevejazzx

Krsnik87 wrote: »

I was told the other day if you take the first chord of a song and bring the root 3 frets up that is the key you are in.

Yeah that's totally correct! Oh wait a minute..no that's wrong. Very wrong.

First chord has nothing to do with although generally speaking a piece will generally start with the chord the key is in. First chord in Cavantina is Emaj, key is Emaj. In instrumental music the first note is commonly either the root or the 5h note of the key - for example in the key of C, commonly a natural g leads in the piece. This is becasue in western harmony the 5th commonly resolves to the tonic note or chord. This is known as tension and release. The more you alter the 'natural 5th' before resolving it to the root/tonic the more 'tension' you will create, for a simple resolution - g7(dominant) goes to a to c major but a g7b5(a g7 with flattened5 i.e eflat) to c major is more tense becasue the eflat is outside the key and creates a more tense or leading sound(essentially the eflat is crying out for the e natural (perfect 3rd) a semi tone above. So the idea of tension and release is how our ear hears the key. The key essentially comprises an order which the chords follow i.e in the key of G all f notes are sharp. If you keep to this order then piece is more diatonic (staying wihtin the realms of the key signature) the more you break key the more dissonant (outside the key sinature) the piece is.
The key is created by the way the chords or notes behave, in most piecies it is easy to spot the key (obvioisly if one is reading it is written in the clef at the begining) becasue western harmony dictates how we hear music. We have decided that certain patterns sounds more better together. A lot of people think a minor melodic key sounds wrong, however the more you hear it the more 'interesting' it sounds. If you listen to jazz for the first time chances that you are not hearing what is actually happening. Only a few lucky people have a natural ear who can wihtout any musical training can spot how groups of notes sit with other for the rest of us we must train our ears like we would our hands if we were playing an instrument. It's a lot of work but very rewarding, after a few years you can play anything hear and moden classical music and jazz really comes alive.

Fingers Mcginty

Krsnik87 wrote: »

I was told the other day if you take the first chord of a song and bring the root 3 frets up that is the key you are in.

In a way that's how i work it out myself
Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm playing a tune and if the Em pentatonic pattern sounds correct with it for example the solo to "Dancin' in the moonilight" well then 3 up from the root of that scale would be G. So the tune is in G major ?????

Rustar

Ahaa. You guys are talking about Relative Major and Minor keys. All that means is that there are a major and a minor key that share the same key signature.

This has nothing to do with 'finding' the key signature of a given song.

Edit: and no, if "Dancin'" sounds minor and you're playing in Em, then the song is probably in the key of Em. G is just the relative major, in that case.

Fingers Mcginty

Rustar wrote: »

Ahaa. You guys are talking about Relative Major and Minor keys. All that means is that there are a major and a minor key that share the same key signature.

This has nothing to do with 'finding' the key signature of a given song.

Edit: and no, if "Dancin'" sounds minor and you're playing in Em, then the song is probably in the key of Em. G is just the relative major, in that case.

Damn...I just don't get this at all.

-=al=-

E minor has the same notes as G major

thats why it works

if u wana understand all that kinda stuff, look at key signatures, chord/scale/structure and relationship with keys and the circle of 5ths

that will fill in a lot of gaps

corkstudent

I always thought it was just the scale first, and then mode second.

For example if a song is in E minor it'll use all the notes in the E minor scale.

A G Major would use all the same notes, but would tend to rise and fall through a minor mode instead, like it would tend to progress 0 2 3 instead of 0 2 4 etc. it depends on the note and chord progressions. It sounds subtle and fuzzy but it's very obvious to our ear.

Rustar

Sort of correct, but bizarrely put. A mode, or scale, is simply a run of notes that use a particular set of intervals.

Using 'R' for 'Root', 'W' for 'Whole step' (2 half steps), and 'H' for 'Half step' (next key, black or white, on a keyboard):

c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c
R-W-W-H-W-W-W-H
note-whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half

a-b-c-d-e-f-g-a
R-W-H-W-W-H-W-W
note-whole-half-whole-whole-half-whole-whole

This is the key of C and its relative minor, A. The A scale is called a 'natural minor'.
Looking at the first one - if you start on ANY key on the keyboard and play R-W-W-H-W-W-W-H intervals, you get a major scale whose name is the first note. Doesn't matter which keys are black or white in-between.
If you then play R-W-H-W-W-H-W-W from ANY key on the keyboard, you get a natural minor scale whose name is the first note.

Modes are simply scales built on each successive note in the scale using the interval relationships of the original scale.
The two modes used in this case are the Ionian (major) and Aeolian (natural minor) based on the 1st and 6th notes of the original (C) scale.

Check these links:
What Key

Mode Explanation

manfist

-=al=- wrote: »

E minor has the same notes as G major

thats why it works

if u wana understand all that kinda stuff, look at key signatures, chord/scale/structure and relationship with keys and the circle of 5ths

that will fill in a lot of gaps

eh no it doesnt , E minor has an D while G major has a D flat ,


and the first chord of a song , or going back three notes wont ever garuentee u a key (although just like 4/4 is the standard time signature, the first chord is more likely what the key is than not but never garuenteed) ,
the best way to no which key is what is to sit down with a pen and paper and wite them out, get your guitar/keyboard/bass/instrament and play them while saying the notes out loud until there stuck in your head , , ,
possibly a bad idea , but it works for some.

Thomas from Presence

manfist wrote: »

eh no it doesnt , E minor has an D while G major has a D flat ,


and the first chord of a song , or going back three notes wont ever garuentee u a key (although just like 4/4 is the standard time signature, the first chord is more likely what the key is than not but never garuenteed) ,
the best way to no which key is what is to sit down with a pen and paper and wite them out, get your guitar/keyboard/bass/instrament and play them while saying the notes out loud until there stuck in your head , , ,
possibly a bad idea , but it works for some.

The best way would be to learn the key system, it's not that hard and it's far quicker less likely to lead you astray.

Al's right on the major minor front:

Notes of G Major

I G
II A
III B
IV C
V D
VI E
VII F#

E Natural Minor is G major inverted so it's the same scale except you treat the E as number I.

So E natural minor (Aeolian):

I E
II F#
III G
IV A
V B
VI C
VII D

There's no Db in G major.


The best way to identify a key is find out which major key it derives from then use the resolution to decide it's modality.

A quick way to this is check the amount of major chords in a key. In Sweet Child O'Mine for example, the verse goes D C G D. The resolution is on the D but this is the key of G.

Why? Because chords I, I and V in a key are major. In the GNR song there are three major chords G, C and D. C and D are beside each other so they must be IV and V so G is I, chord I is the key.

If you play D major over Sweet Child it sounds nasty because it's not that key though using your method you might think it.

Sometimes songs hop out of keys and you have to be a bit more liberal when trying to nail down the key and again sometimes songs are in exotic keys (happens a lot in Jazz, metal and certain world musics) but for most pop and rock songs counting the major chords will set you some of the way.

Here's a handy mnemomic for anyone looking to count sharps and flats to identify a key:

Sharp Keys

Good
Deeds
Are
Ever
Blooming
F#lowers

Flat keys

Fine
Bbands
Ebnter
Abny
Dbecent
Gbigs

A good knowledge of modes would get people through things too. Take this chord progression here:

Emin9 A9 Bmin7 Emin9

It would be most peoples guess to treat it as Emin but it is actually D major or rather E Dorian. Thats another topic though!

Rancidmaniac13

I think the easiest way to work out what key a song is what note it ends on. That's the biggest tell-tale sign for me. Most of the time it's the root, and if it's not it will sound unresolved.

Also, if you're using a simple 3 chord trick such as G-C-D without getting too technical you're using the 1st, 4th and 5th chords. When you play it the D "wants" to go back to the G, so, you are in the key of G.

Thomas from Presence

Rancidmaniac13 wrote: »

I think the easiest way to work out what key a song is what note it ends on. That's the biggest tell-tale sign for me. Most of the time it's the root, and if it's not it will sound unresolved.

Also, if you're using a simple 3 chord trick such as G-C-D without getting too technical you're using the 1st, 4th and 5th chords. When you play it the D "wants" to go back to the G, so, you are in the key of G.

It's not always the case. Take the verses of Sweet Child O'Mine or The Cult's She Sells Sanctuary. They're going D - C - G - D. This wants to conclude on D but the song is very definitely in the key of G.

If you're playing jazz those kind of resolutions are less obvious and even rock and pop music can throw some odd chords into mix and set up resolutions that might not be reducible to explanation as a simple major key.

Sometimes minor keys too might seem to be open and shut cases but they too can need more precise analysis. Check out this common chord progression: Amin - F - Dmin - E7 - Amin. This is best treated as a proper harmonic minor rather than a natural/modal minor.

Learning a bit about this can help make your improvisations sound a lot more accomplished and a lot less disjointed.

Things to learn:

• Learn how to write a major key, T T S T T T S
• Remember, never mix sharps and flats and have one of each letter in the alphabet. Plenty of web resources for this.
  
• Learn how to construct chords from the key.
  
• Learn which are the sharp and flat keys
  
• Learn about modality, inverting the scale
  
• Start identifying keys more quickly