Mainteance & Creche fees.

d2b

Hi.

I know there were other threads about this in the personal issues finnance section but it's closed so here goes...

My 10 month-old Son is heading toward creche this September. Ex is looking for me to split the costs down the middle which seems fair to me on the face of it, however, if I add that to current (voluntarily agreed) maintenance and other groceries I tend to buy for him I arrive at a grand monthly total of 800 notes.

Dunno what the usual is but that sounds like a feckin mortage to me!

I realise he won't be getting any cheaper but it sounds heavy. Or is it? Any thoughts would be appreciated!

SarahMc

€800 above the average, but difficult to say if it is fair unless we know details such as salries/housing costs etc.

d2b

we were never married and hardly knew each other. she has her own house which she rents. i have mine. no idea what she earns. i earned about 25k last year but am paying a mortgage on my own.

I mean the max a court can order paid is 150 p/w. there is obviously some reason for that i.e. it is what the minister and dept for kids think is an appropriate sum of money to raise a child, no? Don't get me wrong here, I have no prob putting my hand in my pocket or anything but it seems a lora lora.

shrapnel222

creche on its own is worth around 900 (and that's ballpark as you'll see some people are paying 800 others 1100), so if you're paying half of that already it's 450 and that means you're paying 350 in maintenance, etc... i'd say you might be paying a little over what you'd expect but not a lot

Kildrought

we were never married

Not relevant to child maintenance

hardly knew each other

Not relevant to child maintenance

...the max a court can order paid is 150 p/w..

.This is the maximum that can be ordered by the District Court per child per week; higher amounts can be ordered by the Circuit Court.

there is obviously some reason for that

Yes, a figure was required to ensure that claimants of One Parent Family Allowance were made to seek child maintenance through the District Court; it used to be €75 per child per week and was then doubled about two (I think) years ago.

i.e. it is what the minister and dept for kids think is an appropriate sum of money to raise a child, no?

No. See para above.

For a good spreadsheet on calculating maintenance check out www.solo.ie

LolaDub

I think if you look around at how much a kid costs this days you'd know 150 a week doesn't get you very far, and that is the max the district court can give. Its pretty unfortunate thats how its done. However you made the maintenance agreement before creche costs came into the equation, if you ended up going back to court to re-adjust the maintenance then creche costs would be included. To be honest if you're earning 25k 800 euro a month does sound like a lot, but you have a child and have to be responsible to that child. I think you're better off researching costs of childcare and discussing the financial strain you are under with your ex. There might be some agreement you could come to like part time childcare and using both you resources to find babysitters to cover the rest of the time? Good Luck

K-9

Child Maintenance is based on both your and her income and expenses.

Ideally, all things being equal it should be 50/50.

Assuming she will/is working full time plus the fact that she has a rental income which may cover the mortgage, she would appear to be in at least 50/50 situation.

On that basis, €800 * 2 = €1,600 a month child expenses. Say €900 childcare & 700 other. That would be €170 roughly a week other expenses.

It's quite steep and as you say, you have a mortgage to pay as well.

If it is going to make things tight, try and bargain with her. I take it you have the baby regularly, there is no point being absolutely skint when you do!

Sometimes solicitors and courts are the best place to agree these things as it's an area that both parties don't tend to agree on.

Make sure you claim the single parent tax credit. Also on that income, bear in mind you may qualify for FIS.

http://www.welfare.ie/schemes/families/fis.html

d2b

I take it you have the baby regularly

Don't even go there!

Ok folks, thanks for the wisdom once again.

twenty8

Not having any experience at all in this area I would think that 800 is fair enough. In addition to all of the costs that one has to incurr with a baby (and believe me - it is bloody massive!!) I am sure that her work / career may also suffer from minding the baby. I would think that an allocation could also be made in this area if it went to court.

It is not a cheap overhead - but fair play for working with her through it.

MojoMaker

Tell us more about these massive costs Twenty8 - interested to hear what you think amounts to massive?

Newborns cost relatively little, all told, and breastfed newborns even less. In most cases virtually all the equipment and clothing you need for the first 12 months arrive via presents from wellwishers.

€800 is quite significant when you read another thread from earlier today detailing how a court-ordered maintenance payment schedule of €600 per month - for 2 children.

You're getting taken for a ride, especially if the Mum is working and on maternity leave. See a solicitor and get that pared back to a reasonable level.

bored and tired

d2b, as shrapnell said a ball park for creche is 900, so if you pay 450 towards that a month you are paying 350 a month towards childs upkeep.

you can work out yourself, how much nappies, wipes, lotions, shampoo, baby wash, and food cost, thats the essentials on a weekly basis
then you have to budget for expences like unknown gp bills and perscriptions,
then you have the constant use of washing machine and dryer, so you have detergent, conditioner, esb,
then you have constant buying of clothes, vests, socks, shoes, hats, winter coats, shoes alone can cost €45 every 6-10weeks once they start walking.
then you have the increased cost of travelling to work via the creche to drop your son off,
you have the cost of heating the house over the winter so baby isnt cold as they cant regulate there own temperature,
you have the cost of sun tan lotions during the summer,
you have educational toys, play mats, walkers, high chairs, rattles, teething rings, tooth brushes, teething gel,
invariably the first buggy you bought is too big and bulky and may not even fit in your boot so you end up buying another lighter less bulkier one, and the car seat you got with the buggy needs to be replaced after 3 months,

the list is endless of what it costs to raise a child. your averging 90 a week, having raised a baby myself that doesnt sound unreasonable,

ntlbell

Just to keep it in perspective.

The guy is not entitled to pay for the creche fee's.

The maintenance is for the upkeep of the child, if the mother chooses to work then she has to weight it up and see if she can afford to do so.

It's up to you to get pen paper out make phone calls and see if it's worth your while to go back to work.

K-9

MojoMaker wrote: »

Tell us more about these massive costs Twenty8 - interested to hear what you think amounts to massive?

Newborns cost relatively little, all told, and breastfed newborns even less. In most cases virtually all the equipment and clothing you need for the first 12 months arrive via presents from wellwishers.

€800 is quite significant when you read another thread from earlier today detailing how a court-ordered maintenance payment schedule of €600 per month - for 2 children.

You're getting taken for a ride, especially if the Mum is working and on maternity leave. See a solicitor and get that pared back to a reasonable level.

Maintenance should be based on the costs for the year, not temporary situations for 6 months like maternity leave. If the mother was working previous to the birth, it should be assumed that will be the situation again, unless it's going to change.

ntlbell wrote: »

Just to keep it in perspective.

The guy is not entitled to pay for the creche fee's.

The maintenance is for the upkeep of the child, if the mother chooses to work then she has to weight it up and see if she can afford to do so.

It's up to you to get pen paper out make phone calls and see if it's worth your while to go back to work.

Again I'd say if she worked previously, creche fees would be a reasonable child expense, especially if both parents work.

ntlbell

Seanies32 wrote: »

Again I'd say if she worked previously, creche fees would be a reasonable child expense, especially if both parents work.

It's a personal lifestyle choice she/he deiced's on and the other is not responsible for the payments off it.

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

It's a personal lifestyle choice she/he deiced's on and the other is not responsible for the payments off it.

AFAIK, It is included in the expenses for submission to the court.

Obviously if there is no childcare it's not an expense, if there is it's included. Might be interesting to argue it with the Judge though.

ntlbell

Seanies32 wrote: »

AFAIK, It is included in the expenses for submission to the court.

Obviously if there is no childcare it's not an expense, if there is it's included. Might be interesting to argue it with the Judge though.

childcare while one partner works is not the other partners exspense.

feeding/clothing/schooling/etc is

it's not rocket science.

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

childcare while one partner works is not the other partners exspense.

feeding/clothing/schooling/etc is

it's not rocket science.

Source?

As I said it's included on the statement of means, which suggests otherwise.

Obviously if there's no childcare, there is less expenses to meet!

Maintenance is based on income of both parents and expenses of both, so it is taken into account if it applies!

ntlbell

Seanies32 wrote: »

Source?

As I said it's included on the statement of means, which suggests otherwise.

Obviously if there's no childcare, there is less expenses to meet!

Maintenance is based on income of both parents and expenses of both, so it is taken into account if it applies!

The source is me.

The mortgage of the partner paying the maitence goes into _their_ exspenses for example that doesn't mean the other parent has to pay part of it.

both parties have to put in their expsenses if what your saying is all one would have to do is go out and buy a new bmw get financed up to the hilt put it down as outgoing and pay less maitence.

i don't think your understanding the expsense part the exspense is the partners exspense if they choose to put the child into child care of they CHOOSE to work so it's THEIR exspense it's not the "childs"

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

The source is me.

Oh right then, indisputable then!;)

ntlbell wrote:

The mortgage of the partner paying the maitence goes into _their_ exspenses for example that doesn't mean the other parent has to pay part of it.

What, why would somebody getting maintenance pay the payers mortgage? This is child maintenance we are chatting about, nobody has to pay a parents rent/mortgage.

The payers rent/mortgage costs are taken account of. Indeed, if the payer was struggling after rent/mortgage they may only have to pay a small or nominal amount.

From http://www.welfare.ie/foi/swi_liabmainfam.html


Income is taken to mean

• Income in the form of salary, wages, pension, or any other annuity.
• Income from a business, or self employment or other gainful occupation.
• Income from dividends and interest arising from stocks, shares, deposits and other investments.
• Rents from property. In the case of property or assets producing no income, the net yearly value of the assets are to be assessed on the same basis as if the Liable Relative were a claimant for Jobseeker's Allowance.
• Benefits, allowances, or pensions payable under the SW Acts, Health Acts, or Redundancy Payments Acts.

Allowing the following deductions

• Income tax
• PRSI Contributions
• Superannuation payments.
• A personal allowance, equivalent to the personal rate being paid to the Lone Parent / Deserted Wife, increased by the appropriate qualified rate in respect of any qualified child. The term qualified child in this context means, any child(ren) living with the Liable Relative whether children of the LP/ DW or from any other relationship.
• An allowance (not exceeding €95.23 p.w.) towards accommodation costs. Where a liable relative's new partner is employed and earning in excess of €76.18 p.w. gross only 50% of the accommodation costs are allowed.
• Any verified mortgage payments by liable relative on former family home.

ntlbell wrote:

both parties have to put in their expsenses if what your saying is all one would have to do is go out and buy a new bmw get financed up to the hilt put it down as outgoing and pay less maitence.

Existing car payments would be allowed as an expense, within reason. I have heard of credit card payments being disallowed where the judge asked what the credit card was used to pay for. You would be allowed reaonable expenses.

ntlbell wrote:

i don't think your understanding the expsense part the exspense is the partners exspense if they choose to put the child into child care of they CHOOSE to work so it's THEIR exspense it's not the "childs"

And I don't think you are understanding that if the parent worked previously it is only right to assume that they will continue to after maternity leave. That will involve childcare which obviously is a child expense. No child, no childcare!

It shouldn't be assumed that they will not work after.

If the parent didn't work previously and decided to work after, you have a point.

Anyway, is there not a seperate thread for this question?

Edit: Indeed you already have a thread started by your good self.

ntlbell

if i'm correct the maximum awareded per child is 150e (i could be wrong)

which is 600e a month

the average creche fee's a month are roughly 1200/1400e a month

the maximum allowed wouldn't even cover most creche's this is before food school etc etc etc etc

anyway we're going round in circles

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

if i'm correct the maximum awareded per child is 150e (i could be wrong)

which is 600e a month

the average creche fee's a month are roughly 1200/1400e a month

the maximum allowed wouldn't even cover most creche's this is before food school etc etc etc etc

anyway we're going round in circles

Edited the previously reply.

It's a common misconception that 150 is the limit. It isn't, the Circuit limit is higher!

Until you can provide a link saying it's not counted, I'll take it is counted as an expense.

ntlbell

Seanies32 wrote: »

Edited the previously reply.

It's a common misconception that 150 is the limit. It isn't, the Circuit limit is higher!

Until you can provide a link saying it's not counted, I'll take it is counted as an expense.

when a case is involving mr and miss average on the average wage in there average house paying avaerage mortgages you won't see many heading off to a circuit court. which i think based on averages is most of the country.

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

when a case is involving mr and miss average on the average wage in there average house paying avaerage mortgages you won't see many heading off to a circuit court. which i think based on averages is most of the country.

Indeed, though if you had free legal aid you could do so. Your problem seems to be with the cost of living and mortgages/rents, not the court limits. The fact still remains that the €150 limit can be increased.

Your previous post was misleading to suit your argument.

I'm trying to dig out a link for the free legal aid means test.

ntlbell

Seanies32 wrote: »

Indeed, though if you had free legal aid you could do so. Your problem seems to be with the cost of living and mortgages/rents, not the court limits. The fact still remains that the €150 limit can be increased.

Your previous post was misleading to suit your argument.

I'm trying to dig out a link for the free legal aid means test.

it wouldn't be a case of not being able to aford to go to the circuit court it would be a case of how much more can a person on avaerage wages car/mortage/rent etc afford to pay a month? have a think about it

K-9

There is a PDF File at http://www.flac.ie/publications/index/119018645315774.html

The maximum amount the District Court can
order each parent to pay is 150 per week
per child and 500 per week for a spouse.
There is no such limit in the Circuit Court or
High Court. Having regard to these ceilings,
the spouse or parent can decide to apply for
the order in the District or Circuit Court
depending on the level of family income.

The option to go to the Circuit or indeed High court is there with no limits.

Here is an article on the new means tests for FLAC
http://www.flac.ie/news/2006/09/01/new-regulations-for-civil-legal-aid-means-test-changed/

Interestingly it says According to FLAC's Director General Noeline Blackwell "It is good to see an increase in the allowances for child care to €6,000 a child, which is far more realistic than previous limits.

Seems FLAC doesn't see working as a lifestyle choice!

So you are allowed 6,000 childcare and 8,000 accomodation which added to a disposable income of 18,000 means 32,000 is the income limit. I'm not sure if other expenses are counted.

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

it wouldn't be a case of not being able to aford to go to the circuit court it would be a case of how much more can a person on avaerage wages car/mortage/rent etc afford to pay a month? have a think about it

....

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

it wouldn't be a case of not being able to aford to go to the circuit court it would be a case of how much more can a person on avaerage wages car/mortage/rent etc afford to pay a month? have a think about it

That has nothing to do with your working is a lifestyle argument.

ntlbell

Seanies32 wrote: »

That has nothing to do with your working is a lifestyle argument.

How can deciding to be a working parent be anything BUT a lifestyle choice? to call it anything else is bizzare

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

....

Sorry, FLAC count childcare as a legitimate expense. Maybe try and find a source that says it isn't!

Also I'm not replying to you here anymore.

Use your own thread that you set up for this purpose!

ntlbell

Seanies32 wrote: »

Sorry, FLAC count childcare as a legitimate expense. Maybe try and find a source that says it isn't!

Also I'm not replying to you here anymore.

Use your own thread that you set up for this purpose!

every single thing that goes out for both parties is asked for..EVERYTHING an over all desicion is made on EVERYTHING and in the famliy courts up to 150e which wouldn't even cover 50% of child care fee's

round and round we go

K-9

ntlbell wrote: »

every single thing that goes out for both parties is asked for..EVERYTHING an over all desicion is made on EVERYTHING and in the famliy courts up to 150e which wouldn't even cover 50% of child care fee's

round and round we go

OK.One more time as it's not sinking in!

With no independent links from yourself to prove what you are saying!

We aren't going round and round, you think you are! Even your €150 argument has been shown not to be true, the circuit and high courts are UNLIMITED! That is your main basis, it's been proved incorrect, yet you persist!


EVERYTHING is included. Usually only ONE parent has childcare expenses, not 2! So it usually is counted for one parent, not both. Therefor, rent/mortgage is allowable for both parents, childcare isn't.

If a couple seperate and both are working and have childcare bills, that is a child expense! Same as if a mother works previous to the birth it should be assumed she will continue after, unless that is not the case!

Goodnight!