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Lisbon 2

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    #32
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Brendan777 wrote: »
    But the self amending anti democratic unaccountable Lisbon Treaty is not the way.

    The Lisbon Treaty is not 'self-amending' . It has a clause that allows the Treaty to be changed by single amendments at a time without a full new Treaty - which makes it like our Constitution. Every amendment has to be ratified as at present.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #33
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Technically, there is no final position.

    There is if we sign up to the Treaty. You can bet your ass that's a final position.


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    #34
    TGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭TGC


    i'm confused


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    #35
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    dresden8 wrote: »
    There is if we sign up to the Treaty. You can bet your ass that's a final position.

    Well, no, because all that's required for us to reverse a ratification is a standard Constitutional amendment.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #36
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Well, no, because all that's required for us to reverse a ratification is a standard Constitutional amendment.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    This is becoming silly and its almost at the how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin territory. Anyone who thinks the government is going to allow the possibility of a subsequent referendum, in the unlikely event that we have, in the meantime, another referendum ratifying lisbon, is not living in the land of the completely sane.

    All of which is irrelevant as lisbon is now dead.


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    #37
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    auerillo wrote: »
    This is becoming silly and its almost at the how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin territory. Anyone who thinks the government is going to allow the possibility of a subsequent referendum, in the unlikely event that we have, in the meantime, another referendum ratifying lisbon, is not living in the land of the completely sane.

    That is an unfortunate side-effect of not having a petition mechanism to force a referendum. However, if popular feeling were strong enough, and the government of the day thought that such a move was a good idea, then it is only a question of a referendum.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #38
    thehighground
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭thehighground


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That is an unfortunate side-effect of not having a petition mechanism to force a referendum. However, if popular feeling were strong enough, and the government of the day thought that such a move was a good idea, then it is only a question of a referendum.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    According to a Poll in the Irish Times today, 54% (1,000 adults) of people are happy with the result of the recent Lisbon referendum which would seem to suggest that it would be pointless holding another referendum on Lisbon unless there are major changes to the existing Treaty.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0725/1216917539048.html


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    #39
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Whoah. One in six who said they are happy with the result believe it will have negative consequences for Ireland.

    I have no idea what to do with that.


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    #40
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    thehighground wrote: »
    According to a Poll in the Irish Times today, 54% (1,000 adults) of people are happy with the result of the recent Lisbon referendum which would seem to suggest that it would be pointless holding another referendum on Lisbon unless there are major changes to the existing Treaty.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0725/1216917539048.html

    Considering that the poll was conducted a day after the referendum, and a week later, the 54% figure is hardly surprising. After all, 53% did vote no, and the week following the referendum was filled with media sensationalism of the reaction from Europe.

    But the poll also doesn't give much indication that people actually had a clue what they were voting on, which is much more crucial, imo. Unless you take into account what OscarBravo has just posted, which indicates some warped thinking (for want of a better term) in quite a few people.


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    #41
    thehighground
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭thehighground


    lenny_leonard wrote: »
    Considering that the poll was conducted a day after the referendum, and a week later, the 54% figure is hardly surprising. After all, 53% did vote no, and the week following the referendum was filled with media sensationalism of the reaction from Europe.

    I'm not surprised at all that 54% - just pointing out that at present, on a revote, the answer would be 'No' again.
    But the poll also doesn't give much indication that people actually had a clue what they were voting on, which is much more crucial, imo. Unless you take into account what OscarBravo has just posted, which indicates some warped thinking (for want of a better term) in quite a few people.

    Does the 1 in six referred to those who voted 'yes' but respect that the majority have voted 'no' and as democrats respect that?

    The other 5 out of 6 know of course, that we can't be thrown out of the EU. And even if they didn't 'have a clue' before they voted, they probably do now.


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    #42
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    thehighground wrote: »
    I'm not surprised at all that 54% - just pointing out that at present, on a revote, the answer would be 'No' again.

    Totally agree.
    thehighground wrote: »
    Does the 1 in six referred to those who voted 'yes' but respect that the majority have voted 'no' and as democrats respect that?

    It definitely doesn't read that way. It simply looks like some people are happy with the result despite believing that there would be negative consequences for Ireland.


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    #43
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    thehighground wrote: »
    According to a Poll in the Irish Times today, 54% (1,000 adults) of people are happy with the result of the recent Lisbon referendum which would seem to suggest that it would be pointless holding another referendum on Lisbon unless there are major changes to the existing Treaty.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0725/1216917539048.html

    Certainly it would be extremely foolish for the government to attempt to run it again under those circumstances!

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #44
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I voted yes the last time, but if the vote is put to us again with no changes to the treaty, I may decide to vote no. I don't like the idea of them returning our vote by saying 'You didn't give us the right answer, now vote again'.


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    #45
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That is an unfortunate side-effect of not having a petition mechanism to force a referendum. However, if popular feeling were strong enough, and the government of the day thought that such a move was a good idea, then it is only a question of a referendum.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    What would the chances be of the government of the day thinking it a good idea to have a 3rd referendum after the 2nd referendum voted "yes" to lisbon? The question is, of course, rhetorical. No European government would dare risk it, as we have seen, for example, in the UK and France over lisbon.

    In any case, lisbon is dead so its a hypothetical argument.


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    #46
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    auerillo wrote: »
    What would the chances be of the government of the day thinking it a good idea to have a 3rd referendum after the 2nd referendum voted "yes" to lisbon? The question is, of course, rhetorical. No European government would dare risk it, as we have seen, for example, in the UK and France over lisbon.

    It's an interesting question. In theory a eurosceptic Tory government in the UK might do it - the UK is often isolated in Europe anyway, so they're not risking that much. However, other than political posturing or principle (principled politicians?), it's hard to see what anyone gets out of it.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #47
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Brendan777 wrote: »
    I love humanities potential to heal the schisims in this world.
    Sorry about this, I hear what you're saying but I had to laugh at this (not in a condescending way btw!), but those schisims was caused by humanity too.
    Boggle wrote: »
    Personally, if I had my way at election time, anyone going for eelection should have to post a cv stating what acts he voted on how he voted so the constituents can decide if he represented their views. I'd also like to see basic numbers such as no days in Dail and expenses etc so you can tell if he's milking it or working...
    (Course that can only be applied to re-election but it would provide some level of accountability)

    Hear, hear. While we can do the digging on that ourselves I do think that would be a good idea. Or maybe a body like the Referendum Commission compiling those details on all candidates in a central source?????



    As for the OP, I do think there are issues with our democracy, but not as a result of the potential re-run of the referendum. I think any re-run is as democratic as the original given that we are just as able to vote No as Yes in it. I think the issue lies in what the voter does/doesn't do and the huge chasm between us and our elected representatives. This isn't really an EU point though so I'll keep it brief. Basically we, as voters, have the right to have our voices heard, but with that right we have a responsibility to ensure we are fully informed on the issues we are voting on. There seems to be a significant percentage (according to the Gallup poll post referendum) of people with little to no knowledge of the Treaty and yet still voting. Also the Yes campaign just proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that our main-stream politicians are far removed from the people they are meant to represent.

    As to whether we should or shouldn't have a re-run I would think we are best waiting for the results of the Government initiated investigation into the results. These are due to be completed in September and we should have a better idea then if a re-run is needed. If it turns out that there was a significant amount of ignorance invloved, i.e. enough to call the result into doubt, then there should, first and foremost, be a campaign to educate the people set up which should be followed with another referendum. The result of this referendum should be more more representative of what the people really think of the Treaty in this case, Yes or No.

    However if it turns out that the levels of ignorance are not significant then the reasons for the No vote need to be analysed in terms of what can or can't be done to ease peoples concerns. If nothing can be done we may be left in a bit of a quandry. I really don't know where the we or the EU can go from there. We would probably need to consider our position in the EU given that we seem to want something different to everyone else. Who knows. It would be a really horrendous place for us (particularly our politicians) to be in with no obvious solution. The EU at large does not want to continue as is and don't think re-negotiation is possible as it may open flood gates for demands from other countries and cause the whole thing to break-down, or at least go into another round of negotiations, which by past experience could last several years. It's a toughy!


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