Do you consider people from Northern Ireland Irish??

Terry

Ahh, those Ulster fúckers have been bitching and moaning ever since the brown bull incident.

Redpunto

They're not Irish as theyre occupied by the United Kingdom and therefore English or at a push Northern Irish but defo not Irish

Davidius

They're definitely not English given that you have to be from England to be English. :pac:

menoscemo

Well for a bunch of brits (as we were called in croke park on saturday) we fairly gave the Dubs a trouncing at their own game.

phasers

no

Kernel

I like to consider them nordies.

dumbyearbook

HoneyButterfly wrote: »

So basically you're saying that because NI is stuck to the rest of the country, everyone there is Irish?! So...Canadians are the same as Americans, who in turn must be the same as Mexicans right?! South Africans must also be the same as North Africans? Germans the same as Austrians?!
The fact of the matter is, there is a boundary there. I'm not saying I want it there, but it has to be acknowledged. But I have friends from NI who consider themselves 100% Irish, they're not deluded, they know they are part of the United Kingdom, but they would rather be refered to as Irish. However, I have friends from NI that would be digusted with someone clumping them together with Ireland simply because they are attached to it physically and geographically.

Theres the political connection as well dont forget.....

Our constitution considers people in NI as Irish they get a passport too if they wish, Id like to see a Mexican try that in the USA.

There is no question of any delusions at all they can be as Irish as they want and move south if they want too!

Reku

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Eh? The UK is a current term that refers to Britain and NI. Clearly NI is not part of Britain.

Current term my a55.:rolleyes:

From the wikipedia page supplied earlier:

On 1 May 1707, the United Kingdom of Great Britain,[14] usually referred to thereafter as the Kingdom of Great Britain, was created by the political union of the Kingdom of England (which included the once independent Principality of Wales) and the Kingdom of Scotland. This event was the result of the Treaty of Union that was agreed on 22 July 1706,[15] and then ratified by the Parliaments of England and Scotland each passing an Act of Union in 1707. Almost a century later, the Kingdom of Ireland, which had been brought under English control between 1541 and 1691, joined the Kingdom of Great Britain with the passing of the Act of Union 1800.[16]

The union jack is the fusion of the old Irish, English, Scotish and Welsh flags.
Anyway, my original point that saying Britain or UK is fine (for those who don't want to push the boundaries of pedantisism to breaking point) still stands.

NI is part of Britain, it is ruled by the British government. What's you're getting confused with is that it is not part of the Island of Britain, which to be honest people are more likely to say "the British isles" which would infact include both NI and ROI anyway.

dumbyearbook wrote: »

Theres the political connection as well dont forget.....

Our constitution considers people in NI as Irish they get a passport too if they wish, Id like to see a Mexican try that in the USA.

There is no question of any delusions at all they can be as Irish as they want and move south if they want too!

For a long time it effectively gave them to anyone who had a child here too so I'm not sure how valid an arguement that is. Also the British and Irish governments are talking about setting up border checkpoints on a permanent basis, if these people are Irish this would be impacting their right to travel within their own country without any reason beyond where they live, seems a bit of a human rights issue if they are Irish. If however it is a separate country, then it's just countries protecting their borders.

walrusgumble

A bunch of bloody partionists the lot of ye:eek:

The attitude of some of ye, you people! you people!

with the attitude that all "northies" are british pretty much allows certain anti good friday people of the unionist side to continue to justify their beliefs that Irish Policiticans and an Taoiseach have no right to stick their noses into northie business.

Fratton Fred

farohar wrote: »

The union jack is the fusion of the old Irish, English, Scotish and Welsh flags.
Anyway, my original point that saying Britain or UK is fine (for those who don't want to push the boundaries of pedantisism to breaking point) still stands.

Actually the Welsh flag does not feature in the Union Flag. it is the flags of St Andrew, St. Patrick and st. George.

Hagar

Paddy in the considers himself Irish, Sammy considers himself British.
But when Sammy goes to the "Mainland" they all call him Paddy.
That must be an awful kick in the bollix. :pac:

Reku

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Actually the Welsh flag does not feature in the Union Flag. it is the flags of St Andrew, St. Patrick and st. George.

Which were the old flags of the countries. Note how Ireland now has the tricolour.

citytillidie

And Northern Ireland does not have its own Flag it just uses the Union Jack

guinnessdrinker

farohar wrote: »

Which were the old flags of the countries. Note how Ireland now has the tricolour.

Not really true. The Union Jack contains the St. Andrews cross representing Scotland, the St George's cross representing England and the St Patrick's cross representing Ireland. The Welsh flag never appeard in it and still doesn't.

Also the St Patricks cross was never an official flag of Ireland, it just happened to fit into the Union Jack flag. The old green flag with gold harp on it had as much right to be on it than the St Patricks cross.

citytillidie

Also dont forget St Patrick was British.

ven0m

Nope, they're not Irish. it's clearly a different country,with a different government, currency, tax system etc.

The only Irish people in the world are those born within the 26 counties that constitutes the Republic Of Ireland. Tired of people claiming they're Irish; yanks, brits, aussies etc .... I don't care who they're descended from, but unless they were born in the 26 counties, they ain't Irish.

guinnessdrinker

ven0m wrote: »

I don't care who they're descended from, but unless they were born in the 26 counties, they ain't Irish.

Not according to the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish constitution.

ven0m

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Not according to the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish constitution.

Do they pay taxes down here? no
Do they answer to our government? no

It is a devolved British country, end of.

Good Friday my arse....... that's about nothing more than making sure economic interests are protected.

They ultimately answer to 10 Dowing Street, their currency is Sterling, their passports say 'Great Britain & Northern Ireland', & their laws appear only in English.

Your honor, I rest my case.

guinnessdrinker

ven0m wrote: »

Do they pay taxes down here? no

A lot of people from counties such as Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh etc. work in Donegal and other areas of the Republic so, some of them do in fact pay taxes here.

ven0m wrote: »

Do they answer to our government? no

Are you answerable to our govenrment?

ven0m wrote: »

It is a devolved British country, end of.

It isn't.

ven0m wrote: »

Good Friday my arse....... that's about nothing more than making sure economic interests are protected.

What do you mean?

ven0m wrote: »

They ultimately answer to 10 Dowing Street, their currency is Sterling, their passports say 'Great Britain & Northern Ireland', & their laws appear only in English.

Your honor, I rest my case.

I'm no judge but anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport so it will say "Eire, Ireland".

ven0m

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

A lot of people from counties such as Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh etc. work in Donegal and other areas of the Republic so, some of them do in fact pay taxes here.



Are you answerable to our govenrment?



It isn't.



What do you mean?



I'm no judge but anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport so it will say "Eire, Ireland".

1. I am answerable to the laws of this STATE as a CITIZEN of this state, & a declared citizen of the state, same as the majority of people here.
2. Migrant workers are still that ... migrant workers, some do pay their taxes up there in N.I. as EU citizens as sometimes it works out cheaper to do so, & which they are actually entitled to do as an EU citizen working within EU borders, plus we have a long standing tax/credits agreement with GB dating back to the 1970's, which can & does facilitate this.
3. There are huge sections & established agencies built out of the GFA that exist with the sole purpose of bettering economic investment & co-operation north & south, & the GFA paved the way for this. McGuinness & Paisley spent most of their time on TRADE-MISSIONS abroad....... key word, 'Trade'.
4. People born of Irish parents outside the state are entitled to an Irish passport, so whats you're point. The default passport up there & default citizenship is that of 'Great Britain & Northern Ireland'.


Ireland was a British colony. We became a REPUBLIC in the early part of the 1900's. Northern Ireland remained & still does remain under British rule. They have a devolved government - ergo Devolved British country, the same as Scotland & Wales.

guinnessdrinker

ven0m wrote: »

1. I am answerable to the laws of this STATE as a CITIZEN of this state, & a declared citizen of the state, same as the majority of people here.
2. Migrant workers are still that ... migrant workers, some do pay their taxes up there in N.I. as EU citizens as sometimes it works out cheaper to do so, & which they are actually entitled to do as an EU citizen working within EU borders, plus we have a long standing tax/credits agreement with GB dating back to the 1970's, which can & does facilitate this.
3. There are huge sections & established agencies built out of the GFA that exist with the sole purpose of bettering economic investment & co-operation north & south, & the GFA paved the way for this. McGuinness & Paisley spent most of their time on TRADE-MISSIONS abroad....... key word, 'Trade'.
4. People born of Irish parents outside the state are entitled to an Irish passport, so whats you're point. The default passport up there & default citizenship is that of 'Great Britain & Northern Ireland'.


Ireland was a British colony. We became a REPUBLIC in the early part of the 1900's. Northern Ireland remained & still does remain under British rule. They have a devolved government - ergo Devolved British country, the same as Scotland & Wales.

You are not answerable to the government, they are answerable to you. Remember, they work for us not the other way around.

Also, the people I was talking about from Northern Ireland working in the Republic are normal citizens. I have friends from the North that work in the Republic, they still live in the North but as they work in the Republic they pay taxes here.

The GFA paved the way for better North/South, British/Irish relationships, the economic aspect was just one of the items that came out of the agreement. The GFA was not negotiatied soley for economic purposes though.

Nobody is disputing that Northern Ireland is still under British rule. There is no default passport in Northern Ireland though. The citizens of Northern Ireland may hold whatever passport they like.

Reku

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Not really true. The Union Jack contains the St. Andrews cross representing Scotland, the St George's cross representing England and the St Patrick's cross representing Ireland. The Welsh flag never appeard in it and still doesn't.

Also the St Patricks cross was never an official flag of Ireland, it just happened to fit into the Union Jack flag. The old green flag with gold harp on it had as much right to be on it than the St Patricks cross.

I'm going to have to bring that up with my old history teacher if I ever see him again,:mad: the book he wrote used the welsh flag as the reason for the 4th cross as supposedly it was just another flag with a big plus type cross ( as opposed to the X type) on it, basically 2 X types and 2 plus types = union Jack was what he wrote and illustrated (in greyscale though).

ven0m wrote: »

The only Irish people in the world are those born within the 26 counties that constitutes the Republic Of Ireland. Tired of people claiming they're Irish; yanks, brits, aussies etc .... I don't care who they're descended from, but unless they were born in the 26 counties, they ain't Irish.

Yup, have known people who felt that if your parents were Irish then you are Irish, idiots failed to see that that meant that anyone decended from a person of a nationality could claim to in fact be of that nationality. So we can all say that we're African.:rolleyes:

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

A lot of people from counties such as Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh etc. work in Donegal and other areas of the Republic so, some of them do in fact pay taxes here.

And many people from ROI work in NI, or in England, France, America, etc.... Doesn't make them from those countries.

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Are you answerable to our govenrment?

A better way to perhaps put it is can the enforcers of our government's rulings (the gardai and the courts) freely go up north, arrest, detain, charge and prosecute a person from NI without so much as a by-you-leave from the British government? No, they can't.

A Dub in Glasgo

farohar wrote: »

Current term my a55.:rolleyes:

You can refer to your a55 all you like. The facts are simple. NI is part of the UK not Britain.

Reku

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You can refer to your a55 all you like. The facts are simple. NI is part of the UK not Britain.

And if you bothered to read the link I supplied as opposed to being too busy scratching your own you'd see that the terms UK and Britain are interchangible within common usage, once more I remind people that Britain is not the same as The Island of Britain, one is a political reference, the other a strictly geographical one. E.g. Many Scots no longer consider themselves part of Britain.

guinnessdrinker

farohar wrote: »

And many people from ROI work in NI, or in England, France, America, etc.... Doesn't make them from those countries.

Of course it doesn't but the point I was addressing was the fact that Ven0m asked the question do they pay taxes here, and my reply was that those that work here do pay taxes here.

farohar wrote: »

A better way to perhaps put it is can the enforcers of our government's rulings (the gardai and the courts) freely go up north, arrest, detain, charge and prosecute a person from NI without so much as a by-you-leave from the British government? No, they can't.

If somebody from Northern Ireland breaks the law in the Republic they can be prosecuted it for it and vice versa.

guinnessdrinker

farohar wrote: »

And if you bothered to read the link I supplied as opposed to being too busy scratching your own you'd see that the terms UK and Britain are interchangible within common usage, once more I remind people that Britain is not the same as The Island of Britain, one is a political reference, the other a strictly geographical one. E.g. Many Scots no longer consider themselves part of Britain.

Might be some confusion here but as I understand it Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britian. It is included in the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland though.

Fratton Fred

farohar wrote: »

I'm going to have to bring that up with my old history teacher if I ever see him again,:mad: the book he wrote used the welsh flag as the reason for the 4th cross as supposedly it was just another flag with a big plus type cross ( as opposed to the X type) on it, basically 2 X types and 2 plus types = union Jack was what he wrote and illustrated (in greyscale though).

St David's flag is a gold cross on a black background which you may see waved at Cardiff City matches or the official flag of Wales is the Dragon (Although I believe it is actualy a Griffin not a dragon as all its legs are the same length).

Wales had come under the rule of England long before a union with Scotland was ever proposed, which is why it got ignored when the union flag was created to symbolise the unions between England, Scotland and Wales.

farohar wrote: »

Yup, have known people who felt that if your parents were Irish then you are Irish, idiots failed to see that that meant that anyone decended from a person of a nationality could claim to in fact be of that nationality. So we can all say that we're African.:rolleyes:


And many people from ROI work in NI, or in England, France, America, etc.... Doesn't make them from those countries.

you could say that being born in a barn does not make you a horse (Is that how it goes?)

Reku

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

If somebody from Northern Ireland breaks the law in the Republic they can be prosecuted it for it and vice versa.

Just as if a Frenchman did so or if an Irishman broke the law in America, heck we had that twit being prosecuted for flashing his arse in another country only last year, so this does not prove anything. What is the point here is that people acting on behalf of one country's government cannot freely enter the sovereign territory of another to enact that government's will, the gardai cannot freely enter NI => it's people are not connected to the Irish government, they are under the rule of the British government.

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Might be some confusion here but as I understand it Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britian. It is included in the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland though.

Once AGAIN:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom, the UK, or Britain,[4]

The discussion here is not who can be the greatest pedant or stickler for technical detail of precise terminology.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you could say that being born in a barn does not make you a horse (Is that how it goes?)

Follow that logic through though and you realise that it doesn't apply here, it's only useful for saying that someone is not something, not that they are.

dumbyearbook

farohar wrote: »

Current term my a55.:rolleyes:

From the wikipedia page supplied earlier:

The union jack is the fusion of the old Irish, English, Scotish and Welsh flags.
Anyway, my original point that saying Britain or UK is fine (for those who don't want to push the boundaries of pedantisism to breaking point) still stands.

NI is part of Britain, it is ruled by the British government. What's you're getting confused with is that it is not part of the Island of Britain, which to be honest people are more likely to say "the British isles" which would infact include both NI and ROI anyway.


For a long time it effectively gave them to anyone who had a child here too so I'm not sure how valid an arguement that is. Also the British and Irish governments are talking about setting up border checkpoints on a permanent basis, if these people are Irish this would be impacting their right to travel within their own country without any reason beyond where they live, seems a bit of a human rights issue if they are Irish. If however it is a separate country, then it's just countries protecting their borders.

Not an expert on the area but imo my argument is valid because the provision of passports on a discretionary basis as a (new) right for those from NI regardless of spouse or otherwise as opposed to being entitled to apply for one makes a big difference in theory, though i'll admit the end result for some would be the same.

If as a citizen your constitution considers a people of a certain nationality then thats what they are ours considers people from NI Irish so if you have an issue contact your local TD and we can all go vote on it.

I have'nt seen any talk of check points on the border,but the limit on the right to travel if they were introduced is a compromise people in NI would have to make as they are still living in another country, to be a citizen of somewhere you don't need to actually live there* or even have been there. eg. Born in Gibraltar - it makes you British you dont have to go there and if you had to visit the mainland UK they would ask to see your passport on the way into the country.

Acknowledgement of the people in NI's nationality is not the same as the Republic considering the north as part of the free state. 'Right to travel' is not provided for at the expense of security and local legislation etc. as EU citizens should'nt we be allowed to go where we like within the member states? theoretically we should - in practice its a security threat.

*until 1969 (i think it was) any person born in the ROI could get a UK passport if they wanted.

walrusgumble

ven0m wrote: »

Do they pay taxes down here? no
Do they answer to our government? no

It is a devolved British country, end of.

Good Friday my arse....... that's about nothing more than making sure economic interests are protected.

They ultimately answer to 10 Dowing Street, their currency is Sterling, their passports say 'Great Britain & Northern Ireland', & their laws appear only in English.

Your honor, I rest my case.

does the likes of anthony o'reilly and god knows how many of ireland's successful business people pay all their liable tax to this country? would you say they are not irish?

good friday my arse? jesus you don't seem to have any regard for equality and recongintion of nationalities or the whole purpose of john hume. on what grounds do you mean to ensure economic interests are protected? have you read the text in full? do you mean that it would stop the likes of the ira from bombing business premises?

have a luck at what the text of the old Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hEireann use to say. and you certainly know that the consitution is the supreme source of irish law

you seem to ignore the thousands who emigrated in the 1970-1980's who gave birth to children and then returned in the 1990's - i am sure you are aware of such sencerios.