should the death penalty be reintroduced

FTA69

montydorito wrote: »

10 Ireland has the softest prisons in the world ....the Carlsberg slogan springs to mind if Carlsberg did prisons they Probably be the best in the World.. well Ireland certainly has this down to a tee

I think inmates should be used as guinea pigs in order to find a cure for people who come up with absurdly mental and sick ideas but yet deem them perfectly acceptable and logical.

By your above comment its plain to see you have absolutely no clue about the Irish prison system whatsoever. Irish jails are Victorian era prisons ,
massively overcrowded and often have unsanitary conditions. Drug addiction is rife as are incidents of violence amongst prisoners. European jails (and most English ones too) are a piece of p*ss compared to Irish ones.

sovtek

Manic Moran wrote: »

The problem with looking at the economics of the American system is that it takes well over a decade, often 20 years to go from 'conviction' to 'execution'. That's a hell of a lot of money per prisoner.

The system needs to be streamlined.

NTM

"Streamlined" as in blunting the appeals process! That's a great way to increase the amount of innocent people being put to death.

Orchard Rebel

Elmo wrote: »

After agreeing to Protocol 13 the government didn't need to write it out of the constitution since they could not inact the constitution since that would mean going back on the statue which prevented them from inacting the death penalty. If they had try to change the statue they would automatically be in violation of the EU, regardless of the Irish constitution?????????

Does our constitution not prevent the Death Penalty? therefore the EU could not introduce the Death Penalty back into Irish Law?

As for the crisis, I have still to notice it.

Wrong. Section 1 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1990 simply provided that no-one should be sentenced to death for any crime. It did not abolish capital punishment in perpetuity. To do that, the constitution had to be amended, since it still made reference to "capital cases" (article 13.6 inter alia).

In order to adopt the 13th Protocol, as was required by the EU, the Constitution had to be amended to ensure that the Oireachtas could not take steps to reintroduce capital punishment (e.g. by repealing section 1 of the 1990 Act). The existence of the 13th Protocol does not of itself prohibit capital punishment, which was why a positive action (i.e. a referendum changing the Constitution was required).

On the "crisis" point, I believe that had the people struck down the 21st Amendment, Ireland would have been in direct contravention of treaty. The only option would have been to put the amendment to the people again or else face sanction. By way of analogy, the same thing may be coming down the line with Lisbon - there will be no renegotiation and the Irish people are likely to be put the question again (most likely with the same result). At that point Ireland will have to accept marginalisation in Europe or else consider a future outside the EU.

But that's way off topic - sorry Mods.

Bottle_of_Smoke

montydorito wrote: »

The death penalty is a waste of a good Guinea pigs lets use the scumbags for once ....the thought of making them work is in itself a good idea but they are a bunch of f***ing w****Rs ..so that wont work.....killing them is easy choice but in my eyes.....we should utilise these c***S for once ....almost like a human farm...(Guinea pigs )
A few reasons and benefits
1. even though the majority will be infected with disease..They should be forced to give blood
2. used by companies to test new products such as perfume ect these companies could pay the government to use these inmates ...thus paying to house these pigs
3. used by the medical scientists to test for cures such as cancer .....instead of them having to spending years researching, testing animals ,spending millions on artificial tissue ect going through millions of tests before they can even look at human patient
4. think of the disease they could cure using inmates as Guinea pigs ....the benefits would be vast lives saved(they murdered) money(they stole) time saved(they wasted through their crimes) all in one
5.they will have the chance to repay back to society what they took ...whats is great they have no choice ... eg making them work they can just refuse.. but inject them with medicine they will be powerless to refuse.
6.death is sweet release for some inmates who deserve nothing less than years of torture (regarding the case of the man who raped someone for nearly a day)
7.the time to develop a drug would be dropped significantly
8.prisons would become less crowded as more and more inmates are used as Guinea pigs
9.80% of criminals today are repeat offends in England a proper punishment system in Ireland would defer repeat offenders
10 Ireland has the softest prisons in the world ....the Carlsberg slogan springs to mind if Carlsberg did prisons they Probably be the best in the World.. well Ireland certainly has this down to a tee

While many will disagree with this...it’s only an idea which certainly couldn’t make the situation any worse than it is
While the usual objections will be human rights, lets just see how they violated someone rights and to what extreme and lets by all means violate their rights..An eye for an eye kind of thing except mankind benefits from this exchange for a change

What would you have to do to be a guinea pig?

montydorito

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

What would you have to do to be a guinea pig?

To be a Guinea pig…It is only an idea
The majority of the prisoners would be guinea pigs
It would be in line with how many years your sentence was
The most dangerous experiments would be given to those with long sentence ect
All the way to the end of the line, those serving minimal sentences they could be given physiological test and experiments …you can fill in the rest

Those with minimal crimes would be allowed to work instead but if they failed to keep up with their duties they would be treated with experiments
Those on good behaviour would go lower on the ladder and be treated with nicer experiments

Imagine if we got a cure for cancer from killing every prisoner from experiments
Even if the odds were a million to one. It would still looks like an attractive gamble

To FTA…
FTA it was only a different idea to the debate and since I am clueless why don’t you post giving your views on the debate
You think you are all honourable and noble… from reading some of your previous posts there are all the same you come in and comment on others posts and always take the high moral ground

FTA quote “I'm against the death penalty largely because I disagree with it morally, however there is also the fact that it is pointless and just doesn't work.”

And if you’re caught up on morals you shouldn’t comment on death row

what i meant by the best prisons in the world was from an immates point of view eg tv,budgies,phones, drugs light sentences ect

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

montydorito wrote: »

To be a Guinea pig…It is only an idea
The majority of the prisoners would be guinea pigs
It would be in line with how many years your sentence was
The most dangerous experiments would be given to those with long sentence ect
All the way to the end of the line, those serving minimal sentences they could be given physiological test and experiments …you can fill in the rest

Those with minimal crimes would be allowed to work instead but if they failed to keep up with their duties they would be treated with experiments
Those on good behaviour would go lower on the ladder and be treated with nicer experiments

Imagine if we got a cure for cancer from killing every prisoner from experiments
Even if the odds were a million to one. It would still looks like an attractive gamble

To FTA…
FTA it was only a different idea to the debate and since I am clueless why don’t you post giving your views on the debate
You think you are all honourable and noble… from reading some of your previous posts there are all the same you come in and comment on others posts and always take the high moral ground

FTA quote “I'm against the death penalty largely because I disagree with it morally, however there is also the fact that it is pointless and just doesn't work.”

And if you’re caught up on morals you shouldn’t comment on death row

what i meant by the best prisons in the world was from an immates point of view eg tv,budgies,phones, drugs light sentences ect

Sorry, but.... are you seriously suggesting Nazi-style human experimentation? That'll go down great with the the EU!

daveharnett

axer wrote: »

Either it should be in for killing anyone or not at all. Why is a garda's life more important than a regular punter?

It isn't more valuable. It is in more danger however, because they put themselves in harms way. I do think that organised crime understands that the murder of a garda provokes an extraordinary reaction from the media, the police and the courts. I wouldn't expect or ask a cop to do his job unarmed without at least that protection.

djpbarry

montydorito wrote: »

To be a Guinea pig…It is only an idea
The majority of the prisoners would be guinea pigs
It would be in line with how many years your sentence was
The most dangerous experiments would be given to those with long sentence ect
All the way to the end of the line, those serving minimal sentences they could be given physiological test and experiments …you can fill in the rest

Those with minimal crimes would be allowed to work instead but if they failed to keep up with their duties they would be treated with experiments
Those on good behaviour would go lower on the ladder and be treated with nicer experiments

Imagine if we got a cure for cancer from killing every prisoner from experiments
Even if the odds were a million to one. It would still looks like an attractive gamble

You really think ALL prisoners are sub-human?

MrPudding

johnnyc wrote: »

just wondering what peoples opinions on the re-introduction of the death penalty. I am pro death penalty as i believe it deters murders, political groups from carrying out murdering rampages, and also the shipment of mass amount of drugs by cartels(the one in cork comes to my mind) it seems a waste of public finances to lock up these people.

I am against it myself. I don’t think the state should murder people, regardless of the crime. The deterrent argument is obviously a load of b@lls.

Manic Moran wrote: »

The problem with looking at the economics of the American system is that it takes well over a decade, often 20 years to go from 'conviction' to 'execution'. That's a hell of a lot of money per prisoner.

The system needs to be streamlined.

NTM

Excellent idea. It is obvious that the system needs to be improved so that it can murder innocent people faster. This is possibly one of the stupidest things ever said about the death penalty. You want to reduce the cost by speeding things up. By speeding things up you increase the likelihood that someone is murdered by mistake. When the state murders someone by mistake they have to pay compensation. So you *might* save some money by speeding up the process but you are likely to increase the costs of settlements for innocents murdered. Plus, though you don’t seem too bother by this, you are more likely to fcuking murdering innocent people.

montydorito wrote: »

To be a Guinea pig…It is only an idea

yes, quite a retarded
one.

montydorito wrote: »

The majority of the prisoners would be guinea pigs
It would be in line with how many years your sentence was
The most dangerous experiments would be given to those with long sentence ect
All the way to the end of the line, those serving minimal sentences they could be given physiological test and experiments …you can fill in the rest

Excellent. Hopefully you would have quite a few people in prison due to miscarriages of justice involved too. You kniow, just to really stick it in a break it off.

montydorito wrote: »

Those with minimal crimes would be allowed to work instead but if they failed to keep up with their duties they would be treated with experiments
Those on good behaviour would go lower on the ladder and be treated with nicer experiments

Are you for real?

montydorito wrote: »

Imagine if we got a cure for cancer from killing every prisoner from experiments
Even if the odds were a million to one. It would still looks like an attractive gamble

Still would not be worth it in my opinion. And I would hope that any doctor involved would lose his licence.

montydorito wrote: »

what i meant by the best prisons in the world was from an immates point of view eg tv,budgies,phones, drugs light sentences ect

The punishment of prison is the loss of freedom. That is it. It is the fact you can’t see your family when you want or go round to your mate for a couple of tinnies. It does not need to be cruel as well. There may well be issues with the criminal justice system, but changing it so a revenge motivated murdering system is not the answer. Prison can be an effective punishment for certain people. There are other that are beyond hope, and provision should be made for them, but murdering them is not the answer.

MrP

FTA69

montydorito wrote: »

To be a Guinea pig…It is only an idea
The majority of the prisoners would be guinea pigs
It would be in line with how many years your sentence was
The most dangerous experiments would be given to those with long sentence ect
All the way to the end of the line, those serving minimal sentences they could be given physiological test and experiments …you can fill in the rest

You're nuts lad, I hope you're taking the p*ss.

FTA it was only a different idea to the debate and since I am clueless why don’t you post giving your views on the debate

I did give my views on how the death penalty is simply a waste of time and doesn't make a sh*te of a difference in the prevention of crime.

You think you are all honourable and noble… from reading some of your previous posts there are all the same you come in and comment on others posts and always take the high moral ground

No, I'm just not a lunatic who believes in conducting experiments on other human beings. The last time sh*t like that was done was in Japanese and Nazi death camps.

And if you’re caught up on morals you shouldn’t comment on death row

What?

what i meant by the best prisons in the world was from an immates point of view eg tv,budgies,phones, drugs light sentences ect

To be honest I'd like to see you sharing a two-man cell in Mountjoy with four heroin addicts and one bucket between ye to sh*t and p*ss in before you can empty it the next morning. Irish prisons are crap compared to anywhere else in Europe. But obviously reasoned debate with an obviously unbalanced individual such as yourself is a waste of time.

montydorito

To make it simple if there was someone who was to be killed by lethal injection on death row tomorrow
But instead they wanted to test a new drug which has never been tested before on humans
On him would that be ok or is that just too inhuman to imagine

even if this new drug could lead to a break through or pave the way for a new cure.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

montydorito wrote: »

To make it simple if there was someone who was to be killed by lethal injection on death row tomorrow
But instead they wanted to test a new drug which has never been tested before on humans
On him would that be ok or is that just too inhuman to imagine

even if this new drug could lead to a break through or pave the way for a new cure.

Monty, stop digging. Seriously.

dlofnep

The death penalty is hypocritical. Some fella on a high horse flicking the switch to kill another man for killing another man. I'm also not a fan of it incase of it resulting in the death of an innocent person, who did not have a trial go their way for whatever reason.

montydorito

Im against the death penalty

Financial costs to taxpayers of capital punishment is several times that of keeping someone in prison for life. Most people don't realize that carrying out one death sentence costs 2-5 times more than keeping that same criminal in prison for the rest of his life. How can this be? It has to do with the endless appeals, additional required procedures, and legal wrangling that drag the process out. It's not unusual for a prisoner to be on death row for 15-20 years. Judges, attorneys, court reporters, clerks, and court facilities all require a substantial investment by the taxpayers. Do we really have the resources to waste?

It is barbaric and violates the "cruel and unusual" clause in the Bill of Rights. Whether it's a firing squad, electric chair, gas chamber, lethal injection, or hanging, it's barbaric to allow state-sanctioned murder before a crowd of people. We condemn people like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il when they murder their own people while we continue to do the same (although our procedures for allowing it are obviously more thorough). The 8th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prevents the use of "cruel and unusual punishment". Many would interpret the death penalty as violating this restriction.

The endless appeals and required additional procedures clog our court system. The U.S. court system goes to enormous lengths before allowing a death sentence to be carried out. All the appeals, motions, hearings, briefs, etc. monopolize much of the time of judges, attorneys, and other court employees as well as use up courtrooms & facilities. This is time & space that could be used for other unresolved matters. The court system is tremendously backed up. This would help move things along.

We as a society have to move away from the "eye for an eye" revenge mentality if civilization is to advance. The "eye for an eye" mentality will never solve anything. A revenge philosophy inevitably leads to an endless cycle of violence. Why do you think the Israeli-Palestine conflict has been going on for 50+ years? Why do you think gang violence in this country never seems to end? It is important to send a message to society that striking back at your enemy purely for revenge will always make matters worse.

It sends the wrong message: why kill people who kill people to show killing is wrong. Yes, we want to make sure there is accountability for crime and an effective deterrent in place; however, the death penalty has a message of "You killed one of us, so we'll kill you". The state is actually using a murder to punish someone who committed a murder. Does that make sense?

Life in prison is a worse punishment and a more effective deterrent. For those of you who don't feel much sympathy for a murderer, keep in mind that death may be too good for them. With a death sentence, the suffering is over in an instant. With life in prison, the pain goes on for decades. Prisoners are confined to a cage and live in an internal environment of rape and violence where they're treated as animals. And consider terrorists. Do you think they'd rather suffer the humiliation of lifelong prison or be "martyred" by a death sentence?

Other countries (especially in Europe) would have a more favorable image of America. It's no secret that anti-Americanism is rampant around the world. One of the reasons is America's continued use of the death penalty. We're seen as a violent, vengeful nation for such a policy. This is pretty much the same view that Europeans had of America when we continued the practice of slavery long after it had been banned in Europe.

Some jury members are reluctant to convict if it means putting someone to death. Many states require any jury members to be polled during the pre-trial examination to be sure they have the stomach to sentence someone to death before they're allowed to serve. Even if they're against the death penalty, they still may lie in order to get on the panel. The thought of agreeing to kill someone even influences some jury members to acquit rather than risk the death. Some prosecutors may go for a lesser charge rather than force juries into a death-or-acquit choice. Obviously, in all these situations, justice may not be served.

The prisoner's family must suffer from seeing their loved one put to death by the state, as well as going through the emotionally-draining appeals process. One victim's innocent family is obviously forced to suffer from a capital murder, but by enforcing a death sentence, you force another family to suffer. Why double the suffering when we don't have to?

The possibility exists that innocent men and women may be put to death. There are several documented cases where DNA testing showed that innocent people were put to death by the government. We have an imperfect justice system where poor defendants are given minimal legal attention by often lesser qualified individuals. We can't risk mistakes.

Mentally ill patients may be put to death. Many people are simply born with defects to their brain that cause them to act a certain way. No amount of drugs, schooling, rehabilitation, or positive reinforcement will change them. Is it fair that someone should be murdered just because they were unlucky enough to be born with a brain defect. Although it is technically unconstitutional to put a mentally ill patient to death, the rules can be vague, and you still need to be able to convince a judge and jury that the defendant is in fact, mentally ill.

It creates sympathy for the monsterous perpetrators of the crimes. Criminals usually are looked down upon by society. People are disgusted by the vile, unconscionable acts they commit and feel tremendous sympathy for the victims of murder, rape, etc. However, the death penalty has a way of shifting sympathy away from the victims and to the criminals themselves. An excellent example is the 2005 execution of former gang leader "Tookie" Williams. This is a man who founded the notorious Crips gang, which has a long legacy of robbery, assault, and murder. This is a man who was convicted with overwhelming evidence of the murder of 4 people, some of whom he shot in the back and then laughed at the sounds they made as they died. This is a man who never even took responsiblity for the crimes or apologized to the victims -- NOT ONCE! These victims had kids and spouses, but instead of sympathy for them, sympathy shifted to Tookie. Candlelight vigils were held for him. Websites like savetookie.org sprung up. Protests and a media circus ensued trying to prevent the execution, which eventually did take place -- 26 years after the crime itself! There are many cases like this, which makes a mockery of the evil crimes these degenerates commit.

It is useless in that it doesn't bring the victim back to life. Perhaps the biggest reason to ban the death penalty is that it doesn't change the fact that the victim is gone and will never come back. Hate, revenge, and anger will never cure the emptiness of a lost loved one. Forgiveness is the only way to start the healing process, and this won't happen in a revenge-focused individual.

oscarBravo

Monty, are you going to attribute the website you copied and pasted that from, or do I have to do it for you?

montydorito

http://www.balancedpolitics.org/death_penalty.htm


This debate has been argued for years the same argument always comes around then is belittled down to nothing more than a slander of the other views.
Yeah my idea was unrealistic but a least it something different to the usual **** .


To FTA im glad if your correct on the sanitary conditions of prison cus they deserve nothing more because its meant to be a harsh punishment not sit in the naughty stool

Liam Byrne

The point that always gets to me is when prisoners complain about how bad conditions are......if the prisons were REALLY that bad, then surely the aim would be not to do anything to get put in there ?

So maybe the "deterrent" approach doesn't work ? I mean, these scumbags must be right idiots to risk being locked up in those Victorian places that are so bad and overcrowded ? Right ?

So if deterrents don't work, then there's no point in the death penalty......if they did, I'd support it, but if they don't then - as pointed out above - the death penalty doesn't bring back the dead.

But I would draw the line at the treatment that criminals get, and their bleeding heart representative groups. Prisons should have the bare essentials for living - nothing more, nothing less.

And rather than the death penalty, we should have chain gangs for repeat serious offenders.....one chance with "normal" punishment, but if you blow that, then you're scum and treated with the same contempt with which you treated your victims / society's rules / basic morality.