dublin bus at it again

dade

seems dublin bus may be up the same tricks they used on circle line

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0724/dublinbus.html

The State is facing legal action from a private bus operator that runs a service to and from Dublin city centre to Swords.

It comes after the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey said Dublin Bus had been engaged in predatory behaviour by adding extra services where it competed with private operators.

The case by Swords Express is due for mention in the High Court today.

AdvertisementSwords Express was licensed to run services from Dublin city centre to Swords through the Port Tunnel.

Shortly after the firm began operations it noticed Dublin Bus began running services on a similar route.

It complained to the Department of Transport.

Document obtained by RTÉ News under the Freedom of Information Act show Dublin Bus was running unauthorised services along the route.

Dublin Bus then applied for a licence and was subsequently granted one by the Department of Transport.

Now Swords Express is taking legal action challenging that decision. It believes its business is under threat.

Dublin Bus says its own express services have always taken the fastest route available.

It changed an existing route and began using the same route as Swords Express after the Port Tunnel opened, it says.

mathie

Which Dublin Bus route goes through the Port Tunnel to Swords?
Cheers
M

dade

mathie wrote: »

Which Dublin Bus route goes through the Port Tunnel to Swords?
Cheers
M

the 142 runs from seabury to the feltrim roundabout through holywell onto the Drinan interchange and out the M1 to the port tunnel.

i think the swords express comes on the M1 at the airport then down the port tunnel but I'm not too sure. i remember hearing something about some company complaining the Dublin bus could use the tunnel and they couldn't or that Dublin bus was using the tunnel and wasn't suppose to or something like that

mathie

Also if anyone knows where exactly the Dublin Bus (41X I think) goes from in Swords.
Thanks!
M

dade

i stand corrected, from dublinbus.ie

Swords Manor / Forest Road
Pinnock Hill / River Valley
Feltrim Hall
Via Port Tunnel
D'Olier Street
Nassau Street
Kildare Street
St. Stephen's Green East
Leeson Street (Before Bridge)
Sussex Road (Burlington Hotel)
Donnybrook Village
Donnybrook Church
Montrose (RTE)
UCD Campus Belfield

meditraitor

mathie wrote: »

Also if anyone knows where exactly the Dublin Bus (41X I think) goes from in Swords.
Thanks!
M

I used this bus a couple of weeks ago. I got it from applewood so it must depart from the Manor.
It went through the main street also.

biZrb

The Swords Express does not serve the same areas in Swords as Dublin Bus do, so I don't know why they are complaining. People in Swords Manor and RiverValley aren't served by the Swords Express route so Dublin Bus aren't taking customers from them (from these areas).

Alan Farrell

I'm sick to the teeth hearing about private operators and Dublin Bus going on about competition. All we want is a bus service, does anyone care who is providing it?

The quickest route to the city from Swords is obviously the tunnel. The incompetent Minister took months to grant the licence to DB to use the tunnel when they started the service. All this when the private operator was sitting on his licence for over a year before commencing the service!

cheridere

Alan Farrell wrote: »

All this when the private operator was sitting on his licence for over a year before commencing the service!

Is this true? The politics of Fingal is pretty twisted

antoinolachtnai

What Alan Farrell says is incorrect.

The Swords Express licence was issued at the beginning of October 2007. We began operating on 19 November 2007. Swords Express applied for the licence in March 2005.

Swords Express has been awaiting a decision on licences for an all-day, two-way service to the Swords Manor and River Valley since February 2008.

tbh

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What Alan Farrell says is incorrect.

The Swords Express licence was issued at the beginning of October 2007. We began operating on 19 November 2007. Swords Express applied for the licence in March 2005.

Swords Express has been awaiting a decision on licences for an all-day, two-way service to the Swords Manor and River Valley since February 2008.

will the swords manor service go through river valley, or would there be a separate service for each?

dresden8

I thought private operators were brought into the bus routes to provide competition?

Now there is competition there are complaints that there is competition.

I don't get it.

markyedison

dresden8 wrote: »

I thought private operators were brought into the bus routes to provide competition?

Now there is competition there are complaints that there is competition.

I don't get it.

Dublin bus had a monopoly. This is a 'bad thing' according to some people. It meant that everyone could get their bus from the same stop and pay lower fares because the buses were funded thru our taxes.

'Competition' is always a good thing, Again according to some, and if you question that then you are a freedom hating communist and you hate progress.

The big problem with competition is , as we have seen in the VHI/BUPA debacle, that private operators are not subsidised and they are free to pick and choose who they want to serve.

Private operators come into a public market that people are generally happy with to compete with the existing service but get pissed off when they realise just how hard it is to provide a satisfactory service.

Then they use the courts to cripple the public service aspect of the market and we're all worse off.

'Competition' as trumpeted by pseudo-laissez faire economists is a one way street. Private operators may compete with state ones but state services are not allowed to compete with private ones.

end rant

shoegirl

Why should there be no competition? Mind you, why did Dublin Bus NEVER, certainly not in my recollection of Swords, EVER take the shortest route until somebody else came along and started to complete.

However I don't object to them competing with private operators. I know my family have more or less abandoned DB since the private service started because they have good experiences, unlike my schoolday years of 1 breakdown per week and surly drivers snarling at me.

Only thing I notice now is after years of gouging Swords users to provide the airport service by diverting most (in fact for a few years, almost all) buses via the airport, suddenly now very few Swords buses are going this way. Why's this? Because suddenly there is competition?

I reckon however the Swords Express will survive because they delivered a good service and people are happy with it. I certainly wouldn't give my money to DB after years of contempt from them.

However. Here is the timetables:

142 from Portmarnock
Mon to Fri - 3 buses all leaving between 07:00 and 07:55
Sat - no service
Sun - no service
3 buses coming back from Rathmines at rush hour mon to fri

Swords Express
from Swords
Mond to Fri 31 departures from 0630 to 1930
Sat 11 departures from 0800 to 1915
Sun 7 departures from 0800 to 1800
More or less the same coming back.

So DB can put up a palty 3 buses, Mon to Fri only, last one leaving at 5 to 8? I'd hardly call that competition. Looks to me like somebody in DB's wife wants to go to work in Rathmines. Or their kiddies are at college in DIT? Service isn't exactly "competition" in the real sense. Its not quite the same route to start with and the times are unusable for many people.

drag0n79

shoegirl wrote: »

However. Here is the timetables:

142 from Portmarnock
Mon to Fri - 3 buses all leaving between 07:00 and 07:55
Sat - no service
Sun - no service
3 buses coming back from Rathmines at rush hour mon to fri

Swords Express
from Swords
Mond to Fri 31 departures from 0630 to 1930
Sat 11 departures from 0800 to 1915
Sun 7 departures from 0800 to 1800
More or less the same coming back.

So DB can put up a palty 3 buses, Mon to Fri only, last one leaving at 5 to 8? I'd hardly call that competition. Looks to me like somebody in DB's wife wants to go to work in Rathmines. Or their kiddies are at college in DIT? Service isn't exactly "competition" in the real sense. Its not quite the same route to start with and the times are unusable for many people.

Actually, the Department of Transport only granted DB 3 licenses originally. They wanted to put on more of a service but were restricted. So not sure what you mean by your comments.

scorpioishere

Shoegirl i compliment you for your comments. I also dnt use dublin bus anymore and i know lots of my friends who are the same too. I prefer to pay more money and travel safely with a private company bus and have no hassle and no bad manners drivers from dublin bus. Am really sick of them and wish that there are more competitors especially in swords. I will also encourage more people to use the swords express bus because its the best and you get value for money.

punchdrunk

I live in Holywell,i work from 9.30-6,and on thursdays 10.30-7.00

the 142/41x bustop is right outside my house,but the last one leaves at 8.25ish

gets me into work by 9.00,so i'm always way too early
on thurdays its totally useless to me

in the evening i miss the last 142 as it passes down dawson st at around 6.05
no way i can make it out of work and to the bus-stop in five minutes,last bus is too early!!


the swords express is great but really expensive(€4 versus €2 on DB,and the closest it gets to Holywell is the Texaco garage up at Airside,so i usually get this home and walk home (not complaining too much,it's good exercise) but a pain in the arse on a crappy day like today

so really neither service is perfect,ideally if the swords express went through holywell i'd get the annual ticket which i could claim the tax back from,as it's a bit steep paying for single trips

shoegirl

So do DB need a licence for everything single trip on a route?
Even at this, surely they could come up with a more useful timetable?

Ginny

Shoegirl you forgot the 41x service:
0725 From Swords Manor
0730 From Swords Manor
(via Glen Ellen)
0735 From Forest Road
0745 From Swords Manor
0750 From Swords Manor
(via Glen Ellan)
0755 From Forest Road

1700 To Swords Manor via River Valley
1715 To Swords Manor
1730 To Swords Manor via River Valley

Carawaystick

Sword's Express isn't much use if you've a small child in a buggy, have a physical disability that stops you climbing up steps into a bus, or want to get from Dublin to Swords any later than the crazy late time of 18 minutes past 8pm.

egan007

dade wrote: »

Dublin Bus says its own express services have always taken the fastest route available.

Ha ha, ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ahem

ahhhhhh hah ha ha ha ha ha ah
ha ha

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haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahha

ha ha ha ha

ha

fart

drag0n79

shoegirl wrote: »

So do DB need a licence for everything single trip on a route?

Apparently so. In fact, in the case of the 41x, they were granted only enough licences to cover morning buses through the port tunnel, but not the evening buses.

shoegirl wrote: »

Even at this, surely they could come up with a more useful timetable?

For the 142 (prior to 41x licence) they were allowed 3 buses each way a day. They picked peak commuting hours. How could the timetable be more useful given the restriction?

shoegirl

GinnyJo wrote: »

Shoegirl you forgot the 41x service:
0725 From Swords Manor
0730 From Swords Manor
(via Glen Ellen)
0735 From Forest Road
0745 From Swords Manor
0750 From Swords Manor
(via Glen Ellan)
0755 From Forest Road

1700 To Swords Manor via River Valley
1715 To Swords Manor
1730 To Swords Manor via River Valley

Still only a rush hour service?

shoegirl

drag0n79 wrote: »

Apparently so. In fact, in the case of the 41x, they were granted only enough licences to cover morning buses through the port tunnel, but not the evening buses.

For the 142 (prior to 41x licence) they were allowed 3 buses each way a day. They picked peak commuting hours. How could the timetable be more useful given the restriction?

Thats insane. (The licencing system I mean). That means if you start a route with 20 trips (hypothetically) and find every single bus jam packed, you have to go and effectively look for a new licence to put on an extra few trips. How does this work in the context (which is common) for Bus Eireann whereby busy city expressway routes are full at 13:00 on a Friday and they put on additional buses? Do these count as the same routes and therefore not need licencing?

To me it seems quite excessive if you need to apply for a new licence to move from 10 trips to 12 trips per day. It certainly explains why DB seem to have had such limited flexibility over the years????

What happens if a route is withdrawn or severely curtailed by DB.....can a new operator just come along and apply for the licence to operate that route? Or do DB maintain the right?

KC61

shoegirl wrote: »

Thats insane. (The licencing system I mean). That means if you start a route with 20 trips (hypothetically) and find every single bus jam packed, you have to go and effectively look for a new licence to put on an extra few trips. How does this work in the context (which is common) for Bus Eireann whereby busy city expressway routes are full at 13:00 on a Friday and they put on additional buses? Do these count as the same routes and therefore not need licencing?

To me it seems quite excessive if you need to apply for a new licence to move from 10 trips to 12 trips per day. It certainly explains why DB seem to have had such limited flexibility over the years????

What happens if a route is withdrawn or severely curtailed by DB.....can a new operator just come along and apply for the licence to operate that route? Or do DB maintain the right?

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I had to comment on this.

This is indeed the case. EVERY timetable or route change that any bus company needs to make has to be approved by the Department of Transport in advance.

And where there is a private operator operating on any portion of a Dublin Bus route, the Department of Transport have shown great reluctance to sanction any improvements in Dublin Bus services, lest they face legal action from the EU or private operators for unfair competition.

Hence the battles regarding the route of the 41X, the non-appearance of the high frequency route 141 between Swords and Rathmines, the poor schedule of route 142 (and the different outward and inward routes), the delays in sanctioning improvements for services in Blanchardstown and the complete lack of any improvements along the Lucan corridor for over five years!!!

In the case of Bus Éireann, there is a fear abound that the Department may well clamp down on the operation of relief departures as you mention on the grounds that they are unlicensed.

Welcome to the crazy world of bus route licensing as operated by the Department of Transport. At the end of the day the customer is shafted - it focusses completely on operators.

The point I am trying to make is that while Dublin Bus does suffer many shortcomings, in many cases it (and indeed private operators) is held by stranglehold by the Department in what they can do in terms of adding extra buses to cope with demand, and it is unfair to blame the company when they are refused permission to increase services.

antoinolachtnai

This is indeed the case. EVERY timetable or route change that any bus company needs to make has to be approved by the Department of Transport in advance.

I am not here to make the Department's case, but my research indicates that this is simply not a true statement, certainly not in respect of Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann. Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I am not here to make the Department's case, but my research indicates that this is simply not a true statement, certainly not in respect of Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann. Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

Well, from my understanding, every Dublin Bus timetable change has to the Department for approval, as does a route extension/alteration.

There are allegations that in certain locations extra unscheduled buses were being operated and if that was the case then obviously Dublin Bus has a case to answer, and as I have no relationship with that organisation other than being a daily user and outside observer I can't confirm that level of detail. I am aware that it did happen in the past, but I'm not aware of it lately.

But if you're suggesting that official Dublin Bus timetables are changing without Departmental approval, I would be very surprised. I am aware that there have been several examples of the Department refusing even minor changes to DB and the changes being put on the back burner.

Obviously with major sporting events etc. there will be leeway, but as I say I'm unaware of official timetables changing without approval.

antoinolachtnai

Let me just go back and check the facts on this again.

mickoneill30

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Let me just go back and check the facts on this again.

I remember in the bad old days before Swords Express writing and ringing DB asking if they could do anything about the fact that the Rivervalley 41X was completely full by stop 5 or 6 and was leaving behind at least 20 people each time. Their response at the time was that they couldn't get approval from the DOT for more buses on that route. But I'm just a customer so they could have been feeding me any old rubbish.
I also remember when Swords Express started operating. The 41Xs seemed to be multiplied for the first couple of weeks. I'd be walking to the Express stop and would see at least 2 half empty 41Xs pass me by (my walk to the bus stop is about 10 mins). That didn't happen before the Swords Express came on.

I don't blame Swords Express or DB. It seems to me that the DOT is inept. There's scope and business there for both operators and people will get out of their cars if there is a proper system. Those "One Small Step" ads that we had last year were a joke. They were trying to get you to leave your car behind. No probs there but how about the DOT gets the finger out and approves or rejects licenses a bit quicker so that the public have alternative to cars. Swords Express should not be waiting on a response since Feb this year. Maybe it's a much harder job than I think but approving / denying a bus route shouldn't take so long.

As to the comment above about the prices of the private bus. For both DB and the Swords Express you can get 10 journey tickets or monthly / yearly tickets which cut down the price a huge amount.

Mark200

If that is true about the licensing rules then that is absolutely ridiculous. The more buses that that DB are allowed operate, the more profitable they can become. The reason for this is that if they can run a bus on a popular route every 15 minutes as opposed to every half hour then people will be more willing to forget about their cars because the buses are a lot more reliable. At the moment the popular routes are about 30 minutes between each bus, and then there's the danger of a bus not turning up for whatever reason (rare, but it does happen). A lot of people are more willing to forget about the climate and drive to work rather than risking having to wait an hour for the bus.
When I was in Belfast last year, the difference in the bus system was huge. I'm not sure if Translink is Government run or not (?) but we'd ask someone if they know the bus times and they'd just say "there's one every 10 minutes". There was no need to publish timetables and for people to time their journey based on when the next bus is, they can just go to the bus stop whenever they're ready to go...knowing they'll be waiting a maximum of 10 / 15 minutes.




But in relation to why this topic was started in the first place.....
I think it is dangerous if the government turn a blind eye to 'competition' between a state-run company and a private company. Similar to Aer Lingus when Ryanair was starting to become successful. They could afford to operate at a loss to destroy any competition, because the Government would cover any losses.
If Dublin Bus is profitable, then fine they should be allowed compete with whoever they want. But just as long as the Government isn't paying to put private companies out of business.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Let me just go back and check the facts on this again.

I'm just wondering if you managed to verify that I am correct in my statement that all official Dublin Bus timetable/route changes DO require departmental approval?