[Article] Bus operator takes case to High Court

Victor

Given that Antóin posts here, along with Dublin Bus staff, can we show a little decorum?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0724/breaking40.htm

Bus operator takes case to High Court

CIARA O'BRIENA private bus operator is taking legal action against the State, challenging a decision by the Department of transport to award a licence to Dublin Bus to operate services on a similar route to its own.

Swords Express runs regular services between Swords and the city centre using the Port Tunnel seven days a week. It contends that Dublin Bus's licence to operate on the route did not go through the proper procedures.

The company has accused Dublin Bus of deviating from its authorised routes to compete with the Swords Express service. Documents obtained by RTÉ show that the State-owned bus company was running unauthorised services on the route, before it was eventually given permission from the department.

Speaking to irishtimes.com this morning, the owner of Swords Express, Antóin O Lachtnain, said the company would have to consider curtailing its services if it was not given a chance to compete fairly.

"Our case is that they weren't given permission in the proper way, it didn't go through the proper procedures in the Department of Transport," said Mr O Lachtnain.

"At the same time, we want to provide service to other areas in Swords, like Holywell and Applewood and River Valley, which are outlying and we can't get a licence to do it. There's an inordinate delay in granting us the licence."

However, a spokeswoman for Dublin Bus said today it was satisfied that all services in Swords were operating in line with Department of Transport and their service authorisations.

The case was mentioned this morning in the High Court, and has been given a date in September.

markf909

I heard Antoin on Morning Ireland.

He said himself Dublin Bus only offer services through the Port tunnel for 20 minutes in the morning. If that is the case and Swords Express operate all day, whats the problem with the DB route? (which I understand operates to a different part of Swords). I'm certainly not sure what the problem is.

I hope more ordinary commuters are not displaced by this cock up by the anonymous ones within the DoT.

John R

The objection SE have is nothing to do with direct competition over the routing, it is simply a case of MONEY.

The pick-up and drop-off points for the 41x have not substantially changed with the re-routing through the port tunnel, in fact if anything DB are in less direct competition than before as they stopped serving the Pavillion area with 41x services. It is simply a case that SE knows their time advantage by using that route while DB was running through Drumcondra has now gone and with that any chance of getting the majority of commuters onto their premium-priced service is diminished.

They do not want to "compete fairly" as Antoin puts it but to have all competition banned.

It is amusing that they complain about DB impinging on their territoty while at the same time complaining that it is taking too long to be allowed free-reign in areas served exclusively by DB for years.

Ultimately SE are just looking after their own financial interests. They started a bus business based on the ability to charge a high fare as they believed they could continue to offer a more attractive product than anyone else. They believed this was the case because they assumed they could use their licence to stop anyone else competing with them. I have no doubt this would have been true were it not for the large amount of negative publicity the government got over denying DB use of the port tunnel.

The real villians of the piece are the FF/PD/Green politicians and their departmental lackeys who have actively encouraged a situation where an essential public service is being run based on commercial interests and political favours rather than the needs of the travelling public who these incompetent and corrupt pieces of crap are supposed to represent.

KC61

I think that, without going into the detail of either the Circle Line complaint or the Swords Express case, it would be fair to say that the nub of ALL the problems is the Department of Transport.

HydeRoad

My feelings are these, put as simply as possibly -

Swords Express should be given the benefit of the doubt, and show what kind of operation they can run. I agree that we should not have a privatized free-for-all, and that we should work towards a scheme of independent regulation and tendering of services.

In the meantime, private bus operators, independent of Dublin Bus, can offer new and different ways of doing things, maybe not all for the good, but they will offer many innovations, and have an incentive to be more customer orientated. If route tendering comes in, then there will be experienced operators ready to participate.

Dublin Bus, for their part, need competition. All down the years, the only way Dublin Bus moved forward and improved their service was through competition. Left to their own devices, Dublin Bus, while investing in new technology all the time, see fit to hold dear to a 1950s operating regime, with archaic timetables, route networks, bus stop facilities, fare tables, and driver rostering.

Dublin Bus should be concentrating on those issues, and willingly moving forward, and improving their own services. If they were providing a wholly modern network of routes and efficiency, there would be no place for the private competition they abhor so much. Private competition exists, because there is a market out there for something different to the stock Dublin Bus product.

Those who oppose private operators, seem principally fearful of the profit motive in public transport provision, and I agree with that, and that is where a proactive Department of Transport would step in. But those same opponents of private operators will seldom admit to any failings within Dublin Bus itself. The Oireachtas committee are principally interested in any abuse of taxpayers money. If there is any shred of evidence of that, it reflects very badly on the priorities of the state public transport provider.

To hell with the public versus private argument. We have a government elected supposedly to legislate for those issues. The focus should be directed towards getting more and more people into buses and public transport, of any hue, and getting more efficiencies out of same. Private operators can open a market additional to that served by Dublin Bus, and should be encouraged. Circle Line did that successfully for a while, when left to their own devices, and Swords Express are doing it on the northside. Aircoach are VERY successful at what they do.

I can tell you now categorically that only a percentage of former Circle Line passengers will use Dublin Bus. Many have returned to their private cars. And that loss of patronage to buses, be they private or state, is regrettable, and a backward step.

Metrobest

Several years ago, when I lived and worked in Dublin, I had a colleague who lived in Swords. Her bus used to take approximately one hour and ten minutes every morning as Dublin Bus insisted on taking a lengthy stopover in the airport. She put up with it because there was no alternative.

Funny, is it not, that back then Dublin Bus showed zero interest in trying to create fast services for its dependent commuters, but as soon as Antoin´s private operation enters the market Dublin Bus is able to run a real express service, albeit only during the time where it can deflect as many potential customers as possible away from Swords Express.

It´s as clear as night follows day that DB want to run Swords Express off the road because they don´t want people to catch on that actually a private operator could do a better job than this inefficient state monolith.

Why does DB insist on running buses on a route it never ran before and where passengers already have a service (with Swords Express) instead of redeploying these buses to other parts of the city where there is no alternative private operator?

For a private operator to succeed in the transport industry in Ireland they have to be extremely focused, efficient and need to raise maximum public awareness. People look at the successes like Ryanair and Aircoach but forget to mention that these companies only succeeded because the government gave them a leg up in the first instance (Ryanair was losing money by the shedload before the government ordered the Aer Lingus monopoly off its Stansted route).

It´s vital that Swords Express succeeds because if it doesn´t the people of Dublin are doomed to more decades of appaling service from the Dublin Bus monopoly.

markf909

Why does DB insist on running buses on a route it never ran before

Because the Port Tunnel wasn't built?

Just a guess though.

markpb

Metrobest wrote: »

It´s vital that Swords Express succeeds because if it doesn´t the people of Dublin are doomed to more decades of appaling service from the Dublin Bus monopoly.

What a short sighted and narrow minded post. What is actually vital is that the whole mess (not just SE vs DB) gets sorted out so people living in Dublin get the best service regardless of operator. No-one cares who provides the service as long as it's fast, efficient and their ticket works on all the buses in Dublin.

If SE win this court case and DB are fined, no-one (except SE) has gained anything. Swords people who want to pay a premium to get to the city faster are in the same position. Anyone who wants to use a weekly, monthly or annual ticket is screwed. Anyone who wants to go further than the city centre is screwed. Not only that but the same customer is also the tax payer who will foot the legal bill.

What we need is for our politicians to grow a pair, sort out a regulator who will copy everything TfL have done for the last five years and give us a decent service.

Dub13

Metrobest wrote: »

Several years ago, when I lived and worked in Dublin, I had a colleague who lived in Swords. Her bus used to take approximately one hour and ten minutes every morning as Dublin Bus insisted on taking a lengthy stopover in the airport. She put up with it because there was no alternative.

Funny, is it not, that back then Dublin Bus showed zero interest in trying to create fast services for its dependent commuters, but as soon as Antoin´s private operation enters the market Dublin Bus is able to run a real express service, albeit only during the time where it can deflect as many potential customers as possible away from Swords Express.

It´s as clear as night follows day that DB want to run Swords Express off the road because they don´t want people to catch on that actually a private operator could do a better job than this inefficient state monolith.

Why does DB insist on running buses on a route it never ran before and where passengers already have a service (with Swords Express) instead of redeploying these buses to other parts of the city where there is no alternative private operator?

A couple of points.

The 41x dublin bus express has been running for as long as I can remember not sure how long but well before Swords Express came onto the scene.So its not true what you say 'Dublin Bus showed zero interest in trying to create fast services for its dependent commuters'.The services was there already and what was doing peoples head in was they still had to sit in traffic in Whitehall as a tunnel build by tax payers money was bypassed.

As for your friend having to go through the airport that must have been a couple of years ago as they now have a 41C which does not go into the airport.Its a bit of a catch 22 situation,workers in swords want to get to the airport as well as people wanting to get into the city asap.I am aware that most peak time 41 buses don't go into the airport,I am not sure what else can be done.

KC61

Metrobest wrote: »

Several years ago, when I lived and worked in Dublin, I had a colleague who lived in Swords. Her bus used to take approximately one hour and ten minutes every morning as Dublin Bus insisted on taking a lengthy stopover in the airport. She put up with it because there was no alternative.

Funny, is it not, that back then Dublin Bus showed zero interest in trying to create fast services for its dependent commuters, but as soon as Antoin´s private operation enters the market Dublin Bus is able to run a real express service, albeit only during the time where it can deflect as many potential customers as possible away from Swords Express.

It´s as clear as night follows day that DB want to run Swords Express off the road because they don´t want people to catch on that actually a private operator could do a better job than this inefficient state monolith.

Why does DB insist on running buses on a route it never ran before and where passengers already have a service (with Swords Express) instead of redeploying these buses to other parts of the city where there is no alternative private operator?

For a private operator to succeed in the transport industry in Ireland they have to be extremely focused, efficient and need to raise maximum public awareness. People look at the successes like Ryanair and Aircoach but forget to mention that these companies only succeeded because the government gave them a leg up in the first instance (Ryanair was losing money by the shedload before the government ordered the Aer Lingus monopoly off its Stansted route).

It´s vital that Swords Express succeeds because if it doesn´t the people of Dublin are doomed to more decades of appaling service from the Dublin Bus monopoly.

I'd have to correct you in that the 41X CitySpeed/Xpresso has been in existence since the early 1990s, and not since after Swords Express started. It commenced in the housing estates in Swords, had a last pickup stop of Pinnock Hill and a first set down stop of Drumcondra Station, operating via the M1, with the next set down at Parnell Square. It never operated via the Airport.

Where there was major congestion on the M1, it operated via either the Old Swords Road or Ballymun. It obviously didn't have the option of the Port Tunnel, as the latter didn't exist. Given it didn't stop en route, once the tunnel opened drivers would ask over the P.A. if there was anyone on board for Drumcondra, and if so, they operated via M1 and Drumcondra, if not - via the Port Tunnel. This continued for a few weeks until the DoT intervened, stating that there was a licence application for an express service via the Port Tunnel from a private operator (Swords Express).

Since then (last summer) the 41X has had to operate via the M1 and Drumcondra until a revised routing in Swords was arrived at that did not conflict with Swords Express, and permission was then granted to operate via the Tunnel. This came as a result of serious pressure from local Swords residents associations on local politicians.

Incidentally, since 2006, the 41, 41B and 41C were overhauled, with only the 41 operating via the Airport.

I would have to applaud Swords Express in their efforts to establish the service (I'll choose not to comment on the court case) - I do believe a niche exists for their product, i.e. an express service to the city, but I think that space exists for both it and the 41X to co-exist. If anything, Swords needs more buses - the 141 is badly needed along the entire corridor to cope with the pressure of loadings. Remember also, that the 41X offers accessible transport to all, which Swords Express does not.

Incidentally, for the record I thought that Circle Line in its original conception as a niche peak hour quality operator was exactly the right product to be delivering.

John R

Metrobest wrote: »

Several years ago, when I lived and worked in Dublin, I had a colleague who lived in Swords. Her bus used to take approximately one hour and ten minutes every morning as Dublin Bus insisted on taking a lengthy stopover in the airport. She put up with it because there was no alternative.

If that is true at all (with you'r history of posting made-up crap to support your arguements I suspect probably not) it would have been in the region of 15 years or more as the 41x has been running a long time.

Metrobest wrote: »

Funny, is it not, that back then Dublin Bus showed zero interest in trying to create fast services for its dependent commuters, but as soon as Antoin´s private operation enters the market Dublin Bus is able to run a real express service, albeit only during the time where it can deflect as many potential customers as possible away from Swords Express.

DB ran an express service for years via the quickest available route, all they are now doing is trying to give their numerous customers on that service the quickest possible journey via the new route.

Metrobest wrote: »

It´s as clear as night follows day that DB want to run Swords Express off the road because they don´t want people to catch on that actually a private operator could do a better job than this inefficient state monolith.

If that was true then where is the problem? The efficient private would get all the custom and it wouldn't matter what the state monolith does.

The truth is that in the current system the state monolith is far more efficient than a tiny niche operator. They can offer passengers cheaper individual trips and a huge choice of alternative routes and destinations as well as frequent off-peak, week-end and late night services with integrated and discounted fares for multiple routes.

Metrobest wrote: »

Why does DB insist on running buses on a route it never ran before and where passengers already have a service (with Swords Express) instead of redeploying these buses to other parts of the city where there is no alternative private operator?

Of course they never ran buses on that route before, the route is underground and until recently there was no tunnel. :rolleyes:

Victor

John, play nice.

In fairness, I haven't used the 41s a lot, but in the past, an awful lot of them would operate via the airport.

KC61

Victor wrote: »

John, play nice.

In fairness, I haven't used the 41s a lot, but in the past, an awful lot of them would operate via the airport.

Again I reiterate that in 2006, the 41 group was re-organised and since then only the 41 (50% of departures) now operate via the Airport. The 41C operates directly along the Swords Road to River Valley and Swords.

Dublin Bus had buses bought for the 141 which was to operate every 10-20 minutes from Swords to Rathmines via the Old Airport Road through Santry, Whitehall and Drumcondra - indeed you photographed the intended terminus beside Rathgar Church - and serve all stops en route but by-passing the Airport. The funding section of the Department approved this, but the licensing section did not.

AlekSmart

As KC61 has elequently expressed on another thread,the coverage of this item over the past 48hrs has amounted to a frenzy with little actual meat in the sandwich.
RTE,in response to a lull in the Newsroom (formerly known as the Silly Season) decided to publicise what its FOI trawl had turned up.

The apparent confirmation of Paul Mortons allegations of rivers of BAC buses being unleashed upon his Circle Line departures was of course grist to the RTE News Editorship.
The fact that route 25X is the only BAC one actually mentioned appears to have been deemed insignificant.

It is of course entirely normal for the Department to release statistics which refer only to the CIE companies.
Any request (Through FOI or direct) for info on Private Operators would be immediately rebuffed on the grounds of being "commercially sensitive".

This reluctance of the Departments part is understandable,especially in the light of evidence given to the Dail Committee on Transport when senior Departmental Officials testified as to the Departments complete ignorance of the number of unlicenced Bus Route Operators as this important issue was the responsibility of the Road Safety Authority (!)

The ongoing Patton Flyer situation merely confirms the Departments lack of application as does it`s reluctance to take ANY decisions to allieviate the very obvious Public Transport hardships in West Dublin/Kildare.

Worse still is the situation in North Dublin with the Swords Express operators now emboldened to follow the apparently successful Morton example to head for the courts.
Oddly enough Paul Morton is quoted today as "considering Legal Action" against somebody.
I was under the impression that this Legal process had already begun which was the Departments reasoning for the current becalmed state of Irish Bus Route licencing.

Currently it appears as if ONLY the Dail Committee on Transport has any real enthusiasm for actually DOING anything rather than sitting heavily on one`s hands as the current Department are collectively doing.

The biggest single improvement which could and SHOULD be immediately implimented is for the total restructuring of the Department of Transports many and varied Sections.

Each of these Sections when involved in any processes regarding New Route Licences should be forced to communicate directly with each other and to iron out their many and varied differences BEFORE these differences rsult in incredible situations such as 200 Newly purchased Buses lying idle cos the correct form was`nt authorised by the correct Section head.

Worse still is the murmurings coming forth from Company/Union sources which whisper of 100+ Buses to be "Laid Up" due to the massively increased fuel price rise coupled with the reduction in direct subvention for 2008/9.

Somebody somewhere is actually proposing this type of action at a time when demand for Public Transport should be stimulated and if necessary subsidized.
It really is a Twilight of the Gods situation.

So...my reading is yet again we are faced with a totally rudderless ship whose captain has little or no idea of ANY action to take other than to seek a report :mad:

Sizzler

What really gets me about this is that a private operator is throwing a tantrum about Dublin Bus competing with him. Everyday we hear of the need for competition but yet when a service for the masses is enhanced someone steams in and says its not fair

Aer Lingus and Ryanair have licenses to operate the same routes but I've never seen either throw their toys out of the pram as they have taken the decision to make a fist of it, if it hasnt worked they take it on the chin.

What makes this all the more astounding is (as Dub13 said above) the 41x route was only approved on the basis that it did not interfere directly with the existing Swords Express route. Frankly unless you live within walking distance of Swords Main Street or Pinnock Hill the service isnt going to be any use to you. The catchment area for the service that Dublin Bus have always hoovered up has not changed, i.e. Rivervalley / Swords Manor / Glen Ellen etc. All Dublin Bus have done is enhanced their existing service!

How naieve can someone be going into business be to think that there will never be any competition The very fact that Dublin Bus are only providing a handful of buses in the space of 45 mins during the mornings Mon-Fri does not say a lot for the business plan of the private operator if they cannot sustain the competition for such a confined period. The Swords Express service runs all day yes? But Dublin Bus are destroying the business based on a 4-5 buses each morning on a route that doesnt conflict with Swords Express!

markf909

Sizzler wrote: »

What really gets me about this is that a private operator is throwing a tantrum about Dublin Bus competing with him. Everyday we hear of the need for competition but yet when a service for the masses is enhanced someone steams in and says its not fair

Aer Lingus and Ryanair have licenses to operate the same routes but I've never seen either throw their toys out of the pram as they have taken the decision to make a fist of it, if it hasnt worked they take it on the chin.

What makes this all the more astounding is (as Dub13 said above) the 41x route was only approved on the basis that it did not interfere directly with the existing Swords Express route. Frankly unless you live within walking distance of Swords Main Street or Pinnock Hill the service isnt going to be any use to you. The catchment area for the service that Dublin Bus have always hoovered up has not changed, i.e. Rivervalley / Swords Manor / Glen Ellen etc. All Dublin Bus have done is enhanced their existing service!

How naieve can someone be going into business be to think that there will never be any competition The very fact that Dublin Bus are only providing a handful of buses in the space of 45 mins during the mornings Mon-Fri does not say a lot for the business plan of the private operator if they cannot sustain the competition for such a confined period. The Swords Express service runs all day yes? But Dublin Bus are destroying the business based on a 4-5 buses each morning on a route that doesnt conflict with Swords Express!

Well said.

We have to remember those in the media/govt./civil service don't have the first clue about public transport. They dont have to use it ergo they dont care about it nor do they really have to educate themselves about it on the ground.

For the media it was a simple case of daring entrepeneur crushed by villinous semi-state. In all the coverage on Morning Ireland this week, the only time "customer" and "passenger" was mention was by the DB spokesperson.

No one else mentioned it as the customer is a mere bit player in this fiasco.

KC61

markf909 wrote: »

Well said.

We have to remember those in the media/govt./civil service don't have the first clue about public transport. They dont have to use it ergo they dont care about it nor do they really have to educate themselves about it on the ground.

For the media it was a simple case of daring entrepeneur crushed by villinous semi-state. In all the coverage on Morning Ireland this week, the only time "customer" and "passenger" was mention was by the DB spokesperson.

No one else mentioned it as the customer is a mere bit player in this fiasco.

That is the nub of the issue here.

The media and politicians are focussing on the operators, but at the end of the day the consumer who is left standing at bus stops is being forgotten about.

The plain fact is that the Department is only looking at this from an operator perspective and not from a consumer's perspective.

The DoT does not seem to care that actually demand is exceeding supply at peak times - looking at the buses coming along the Lucan QBC in the morning peak during the school term, they (including the privates) were virtually all full.

The issue for the private operator is that their off-peak loads are meagre and there is insufficient demand for their services at those times, and they cannot compete at the off-peak times with the already long established Dublin Bus services that are subsidised.

And as I have said elsewhere, it isn't just about Dublin Bus -v- private operators. The DoT refused to licence the Patton Flyer because it apparently "conflicts" with the Aircoach Greystones service, despite the fact that the Aircoach does not serve Monkstown, Dun Laoghaire, Glasthule or Dalkey. The "conflict" is that they both serve Blackrock and the Merrion Road area.

I would urge anyone who is concerned by the apparent lack of any interest in the consumer to write to the members of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport as they are planning to hold a hearing into this. Their emails, and those of the additional opposition spokespeople and the minister are below.

Martin.Brady@oireachtas.ie;
Paschal.Donohoe@oireachtas.ie;
John.Ellis@oireachtas.ie;
Shane.Ross@oireachtas.ie;
frank.fahey@oireachtas.ie;
paul.connaughton@oireachtas.ie;
aine.brady@oireachtas.ie;
thomas.p.broughan@oireachtas.ie;
frank.feighan@oireachtas.ie;
michael.kennedy@oireachtas.ie;
michael.lowry@oireachtas.ie;
shane.mcentee@oireachtas.ie;
michael.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie;
fergus.odowd@oireachtas.ie;
timmy.dooley@oireachtas.ie

ciaran.cuffe@oireachtas.ie
ciaran.cannon@oireachtas.ie
noel.dempsey@oireachtas.ie

Metrobest

Aer Lingus and Ryanair have licenses to operate the same routes but I've never seen either throw their toys out of the pram as they have taken the decision to make a fist of it, if it hasnt worked they take it on the chin.

Don´t you know that in its early Ryanair was losing money by the shedload because it had to compete with the dominant player, Aer Lingus, on every route. Ryanair almost went bankrupt until the government ordered Aer Lingus off the Stansted route giving Ryanair the time it needed to establish itself in the market.

Swords express needs this breathing space or it too will go under meaning ultimately less buses on the streets of Dublin and/or higher subsidies for an inefficient monopoly which is the worst situation imaginable.

The best scenario is that passengers have a choice of two strong operators. The playing field has to be level. If Dublin Bus has a right to exclusive operation on its lucrative routes like 46a, then Swords Express needs to have the same treatment on its corridor.

I don´t see why Dublin Bus cannot operate services through the tunnel for example as far as Whitehall (therefore giving Dublin Bus passengers the option of going through the tunnel by changing buses), but leave Swords express as the only operators with a direct service from Swords via the tunnel.

What really gets me about this is that a private operator is throwing a tantrum about Dublin Bus competing with him. Everyday we hear of the need for competition but yet when a service for the masses is enhanced someone steams in and says its not fair

Are you therefore advocating Swords Express be allowed to run on all of Dublin Bus´s lucrative routes, ´enhancing´ the existing services?

Metrobest

John R wrote: »

If that is true at all (with you'r history of posting made-up crap to support your arguements I suspect probably not) it would have been in the region of 15 years or more as the 41x has been running a long time.:

Oh please. I´ve better things to be doing than coming on here making up stuff. I´m getting tired off this personal attack nonsense.

markpb

Metrobest wrote: »

I don´t see why Dublin Bus cannot operate services through the tunnel for example as far as Whitehall (therefore giving Dublin Bus passengers the option of going through the tunnel by changing buses), but leave Swords express as the only operators with a direct service from Swords via the tunnel.

I'm not quite sure how to explain this. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a tunnel. It's underground. For DB to serve "as far as Whitehall", they'd have to attach balloons and float up through the drop shaft at Whitehall church. I'm all for compromise but that's stretching it!

I've yet to see any city in the world operating like Dublin which allows a public operator to work with private operators to serve the same area at the same time in a fair, competitive environment. It just doesn't work. You need route regulation and integrated ticketing and we don't really have those here. If DoT allow SE to be the only express operator from Swords to the city, what about all those people who live in Swords but work in Sandyford, Citywest or Blanchardstown. They'll have to pay two different operators for each trip. Should they pay (more than) twice as much or should they accept that they are now second class citizens and take the slow bus?

Metrobest wrote: »

The best scenario is that passengers have a choice of two strong operators.

The best scenario is for passengers not to give a crap about who operates the bus. They want a bus to turn up on time, get them to their destination on time and accept a standard bus ticket. How the commercial backend operates is completely irrelevant.

Metrobest

markpb wrote: »

I'm not quite sure how to explain this. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a tunnel. It's underground. For DB to serve "as far as Whitehall", they'd have to attach balloons and float up through the drop shaft at Whitehall church. I'm all for compromise but that's stretching it!

I've yet to see any city in the world operating like Dublin which allows a public operator to work with private operators to serve the same area at the same time in a fair, competitive environment. It just doesn't work. You need route regulation and integrated ticketing and we don't really have those here. If DoT allow SE to be the only express operator from Swords to the city, what about all those people who live in Swords but work in Sandyford, Citywest or Blanchardstown. They'll have to pay two different operators for each trip. Should they pay (more than) twice as much or should they accept that they are now second class citizens and take the slow bus?

Sorry, my knowledge of Dublin´s geography has gone hazy. What I mean is run a shorter high frequency route terminating somewhere close to the tunnel portal and not all the way into Swords, thereby giving Swords Express exclusivity on its direct route yet allowing Dublin Bus passengers utilise the tunnel if they so wish.

And I agree the market needs regulation. Route regulation means that you don´t have two operators directly competing on the same route because, as you said, that doesn´t work. The next step is to integrate private operators into the integrated ticketing system, and I agree if that doesn´t happen than it´s not fair on passengers. Nevetheless, its not fair on the taxpayers of Ireland either that they have to subsidise a state monopoly when private operators can do a better job for lower (or no) subsidies.

KC61

To be realistic, until proper reform of the licensing legislation takes place, which in all probability will be in either the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2009, this sort of problem will continually crop up.

The 41X was there for over 15 years, taking the fastest route possible between Pinnock Hill outside Swords and Drumcondra (or the city if there was no-one on board for Drumcondra).

Are you seriously suggesting that for no other reason than Swords Express is a private operator that Dublin Bus should therefore be refused access to a public resource (i.e. the Port Tunnel) to operate an existing bus service?

Are you also seriously suggesting that people should have to pay EUR 4 each way to avail of this and be deprived of the 41X which costs EUR 2.30?

I think that the point is that the Dublin Bus 41X service was there already and long established. To use or the tunnel or not should never be an issue. In all fairness Dublin Bus have gone out of their way to re-route the service in Swords so that it does not clash with Swords Express pick up points.

As it happens I believe that there is room for both operations as a peak hour product, but like Circle Line, I think the all day market is a very tough one to operate profitably without a subsidy. And to be honest I would be inclined to believe that SE is doing very well in the peak (when the 41X also operates), but that it is the dip during the off-peak and at weekends that is causing the losses.

While people are prepared to pay a higher fare at peak times, that tends to dip significantly in the off-peak.

markf909

Nevetheless, its not fair on the taxpayers of Ireland either that they have to subsidise a state monopoly when private operators can do a better job for lower (or no) subsidies.

SE say they are losing 10k a month and that is with only very limited "competition" from DB in the morning rush window. What is to stop any private operator from building up a service then giving the Govt an ultimatum: give me cash or I bail leaving everyone high and dry? (Not suggesting that SE are in any way doing this). I am pointing out that private operators providing true public transport may not be in a position to run the service for a profit.

From my understanding DB receive a paltry amount of subvention when compared to other European operators. Can you point out specific examples of other public transport systems in other cities that provide a service on a lower subsidy than DB?

parsi

Metrobest wrote: »

Don´t you know that in its early Ryanair was losing money by the shedload because it had to compete with the dominant player, Aer Lingus, on every route. Ryanair almost went bankrupt until the government ordered Aer Lingus off the Stansted route giving Ryanair the time it needed to establish itself in the market.

And now it drives (??) other operators off established routes - look at Knock-Gatwick & Cork-gatwick...

What happens if a provate company wants to operate on the same route as the Swords Express - are they banned from it or is competition allowed ?

spareman

Greed Greed Greed, I really am sick of this country. Do you guy's really think the Private companies are interested in whats best for the public? come on, They are looking for subsidy from the taxpayer to provide the taxpayer with an overpriced bus service so they can cream it off.
Surely it would be better to keep bus transport in public hands and just get DB running more efficently with better management and less outside interferance from vote grapping politicians.
Surely if they were interested in giving the customer a choice they would issue licences to private operators to operate the 46A route etc alongside Dublin bus? and dublin bus could operate SE route. Funny all the private operators giving out about Dublin bus operating unlicenced services, Mr. Patton hasn't been mentioned, the fact that the patton flyer still operates surely tells you all you need to know about how we organise transport in this country. I say open it up, let them operate whatever routes they want, cut the state subsidy to Dublin Bus and let them operate or drop whatever routes they want, Let the customer decide! Open private market, open competition. Id say at least 50% of DB routes are loss making, drop them and they wont need the state subsidy.