Only One National Road Project to Start in 2009

Sponge Bob

spacetweek wrote: »

I still think you got lucky with your prediction. You made it back in July; most of the global financial meltdown (and most the gov's deterioration in finances) only occurred afterwards.

The key difference between us is that I knew that as far back as last March and said so shortly afterwards. I was about the only person prepared to say it for a long time.

The government then called an emergency budget in September to occur in October which failed to deal with anything much but it did amount to an admission that there was a problem

My 2010 predictions? Not much, 8 interurbans finishing this year, another 9 next year. No wriggle room there.

I agree 100% with SpacetWeek . That is indeed the intention .

mysterious

It's good to see that they are finally putting some attention to the N21.

But again it's absurd to build the Castleisland bypass for political reasons over a more conjested NCW and Adare bottlenecks.

Adare is one of the biggest bottlenecks in the country and is cryin out for a bypass. 17,000 vehicles a day trundle through that is 5,000 more than the next biggest bottleneck Abbeyleix and Mountrath....

Just some logic for you....

Carawaystick

Castleisland has 3 main routes from it though, Limerick, Killarney and Tralee, While I agree Adare should get a relief road asap,

Chris_533976

I've said it before. Split the M20 into three projects as it was originally planned (not two as the new plan suggests) and instead of the new Croom bypass section, do a Croom bypass M20 and an M21 Adare bypass.

Like do an M7/M8 scheme on the M20/21 to get Adare bypassed. Seems fairly logical to me.

mysterious

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I've said it before. Split the M20 into three projects as it was originally planned (not two as the new plan suggests) and instead of the new Croom bypass section, do a Croom bypass M20 and an M21 Adare bypass.

Like do an M7/M8 scheme on the M20/21 to get Adare bypassed. Seems fairly logical to me.

I've also said it.
It would be ludricous not to do so. The Current M20/M21 Junction goes very close to Adare, It seems retarded going by the current plan

God the NRA are really really slow in this regard:rolleyes: We are even showing them how to save the extra few bob ffs.

Shrugss shoulder we will just have to wait and see.

Sponge Bob

Well it turned out I was right and wrong when I started this thread .

1. One road project did go ahead in 2009
2. It was not the Galway Bypass but the Castleisland Bypass .

Today The Examiner carried this on the front page . A year behind the curve .

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/10000-road-builders-face-dole-queue-94147.html

UP to 10,000 road builders face the dole queue in the next 12 months because the Government is abandoning commitments made in its public capital programme and the National Development Plan.

In effect, the public capital programme is being wound down and is grinding to a halt."

But what about the PPP programme ??

"All of these projects will be complete by the middle of 2010," he said. "After that the workers will be unemployed and the plant and machinery will be moved to eastern Europe. Our highly skilled and highly paid workers and professionals will be lost to the industry and to the Irish economy.

"The Irish road building industry has become extremely efficient and this capacity will be lost to our competitor economies in eastern Europe. In the past, our industry was challenged to meet the needs of the government capital programme. Our member companies responded to this challenge by increasing output, through improving efficiencies and investment in people and plants. This investment in people and in our companies will come to nothing if projects are delayed indefinitely."

This is very true. It is important that we start about one PPP a year with one of the top two Irish operators such as Roadbridge . If we do not keep the top two alive over the 2011 - 2015 timeframe ...and anything more is a luxury we cannot afford .....then it will be very difficult to reconstitute the industry in future. One 30km job every year could do that .

For the foreseeable future, out to 2015 . That is the very best we can manage .

The Word Is Bor

BAM are currently down-sizing their operations. I have heard that they are selling up to 50% of the plant. I think they are doing Castleisland on a 'management' basis rather than as a main contractor.

westtip

rekrow wrote: »

I

Why not toll all or nothing and distribute the costs across all road users?

Has been argued before - but bring in the Swiss system - extra tax disc if you want to use the motorway - once a year payment - payable by all vehicles with severe on the spot penalties (northerners and visitors from other shores to be included) just as they do in Switzerland - I have never understood this argument that only the users should pay - Sure if I go to a supermarket and buy goods transported on the motorway network aren't I using the motorwaysystem - or if it means the papers and bread get to the shops earlier in the morning aren't I using the system. The tolls do seem to penalise certain users compared to others and as for regular commuters they cripple them. Mind you we seem pretty wrapped into this extra tax system - but would be interesting to see the figures if they had gone for a swiss system - just how much would the extra tax disc have cost? - At the moment I wonder how many non jurisdiction vehicles actually pay the e toll on the M50 for example???? So how much are the rest of th M50 users subsidising the out of state drivers?

Chris_533976

If (and I mean IF) the five PPPs go ahead, then it'll keep things going for a while, from looking at the document pile I have heres how things will pan out IF THEY GO WELL.

I only have the anticipated 'final contract award' dates, nothing more than that ATM. Tho one can assume construction will begin soon after.

1) M17/N18 Gort - Athenry - October 2010
2) N11 Arklow - Rathnew & N7 Newlands Cross - November 2010
3) M11 Enniscorthy bypass & N25 New Ross - March 2011
4) M20 South (Blarney - Buttevant) & N22 Cork NRR North - Q2 2011
5) M20 North (Buttevant - Croom) & N21 Adare Bypass - Q2 2011**

** I've heard this may be delayed by 6 months due to amendments to the N21 scheme.

Also, there is a CHANCE (and DONT quote me on this) that the N6 Galway Outer bypass (whats been approved of it anyway) will be added to the PPP list soon. I've heard rumours on the grapevine. My guess (again DONT quote me on this) is that it would be added to the N7 Newlands / N11 Arklow one.

crocro

Are all the PPP roads to be tolled?

L1011

crocro wrote: »

Are all the PPP roads to be tolled?

The intention for the next scheme is 'shadow tolling' where the state pays the tolls based on traffic usage - obviously the toll they pay will be less than that which a driver would pay at the gates due to no VAT, and no collection costs on the part of the concessionaire.

I wouldn't be surprised to see booths appear on some schemes, but some of them - Newlands X for instance - are definitely not going to have a physical toll.

Chris_533976

Yeah its shadow tolling, but the government are in a sense making savings because some of these contracts are including maintenance of other parts of the route network.

Sponge Bob

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I only have the anticipated 'final contract award' dates, nothing more than that ATM. Tho one can assume construction will begin soon after.

1) M17/N18 Gort - Athenry - October 2010
2) N11 Arklow - Rathnew & N7 Newlands Cross - November 2010

Also, there is a CHANCE (and DONT quote me on this) that the N6 Galway Outer bypass (whats been approved of it anyway) will be added to the PPP list soon. I've heard rumours on the grapevine. My guess (again DONT quote me on this) is that it would be added to the N7 Newlands / N11 Arklow one.

Oooof Chris . The PPP projects are 'clustered' to allow equipment transfers etc . Galway is a tad too far away from the Newlands/Arklow one I would have thought .

And the Galway Bypass is facing a tricky legal challenge ( what's left of it that is) which is in court in a fortnight , the Hands Across the Corrib Ltd and environmentalist, Peter Sweetman cases being heard together.

Chris_533976

Yeah they're clustered, but only up to a point. N11 Arklow/Rathnew isnt next to Newlands, nor is M11 Enniscorthy close to New Ross. Closer than the former to Galway, granted, but not next door to each other.

Sponge Bob

Both pairs are within 25 miles of each other or so .

I used the phrase clustered as distinct from say contigous or close

mysterious

So the Castleisland bypass is crackling along now.


They better put in a compact LILO interchange on the Limerick side. Not another roundabout. There is already three here:mad:

look at the the Rooskey N4, Nenagh, Cahir N8, Mullingar N4 they put flyover's there... They are of simalar standard to this bypass.

Even the WS2 lane roads on the N17 have grade separate interchanges on them.

L1011

Rooskey N4 has a roundabout in the middle and the Mullingar M4 is a wide median, motorway grade (bar the Services on it) DC!

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

Rooskey N4 has a roundabout in the middle and the Mullingar M4 is a wide median, motorway grade (bar the Services on it) DC!

But it has a LILO interchange ?

I'm ok with one or two roundabouts on the Castleisland bypass but not three. It defeats the purpose of the bypass It joins two national primary routes from Kerry to the rest of the country. They manage to build interchanges on many WS2 lane roads. Why can't they do it here.

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

But it has a LILO interchange ?

I'm ok with one or two roundabouts on the Castleisland bypass but not three. It defeats the purpose of the bypass It joins two national primary routes from Kerry to the rest of the country. They manage to build interchanges on many WS2 lane roads. Why can't they do it here.

Don't think so? Looking at the OSI Discovery maps for the area which are updated for it (amazingly!) and it looks like the southern terminal and midway RAB are the only ones there.

The N4 Drumsna/Jamestown scheme from much earlier is just north of this and is WS2 with a GSJ on it. LILO one side, on/off ramps the other. Its the most hodgepog GSJ I've ever seen, theres a roundabout on the side with the ramps and all... but it does its job, the mainline is uninterrupted - except by Guards!

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

Don't think so? Looking at the OSI Discovery maps for the area which are updated for it (amazingly!) and it looks like the southern terminal and midway RAB are the only ones there.

The N4 Drumsna/Jamestown scheme from much earlier is just north of this and is WS2 with a GSJ on it. LILO one side, on/off ramps the other. Its the most hodgepog GSJ I've ever seen, theres a roundabout on the side with the ramps and all... but it does its job, the mainline is uninterrupted - except by Guards!

Well that's what I'm asking to be on the Castleisland bypass not three roundabouts ffs.

I am beginning to hate these things. So many of them makes journeys like a merry go around, its making me sick, physically and mentally.

mysterious

KevR

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Oooof Chris . The PPP projects are 'clustered' to allow equipment transfers etc . Galway is a tad too far away from the Newlands/Arklow one I would have thought .

And the Galway Bypass is facing a tricky legal challenge ( what's left of it that is) which is in court in a fortnight , the Hands Across the Corrib Ltd and environmentalist, Peter Sweetman cases being heard together.

I cannot believe that they are getting a court hearing for this. The vast majority of people in Galway and surrounding areas are in favour of the bypass. Do we live in a democracy or not? At the moment it seems a few people who object to things can dictate to the vast majority the quality of life they will have.

:mad:

Chris_533976

I'm just glad that so far the environmental lobby (etc) have only concentrated on the M3 and the Galway bypass. If things were like they are in England, with barely anything being built, we'd be right up **** creek.

Lets face it, the A303 at Stonehenge or the need for a bypass of Lyndhurst makes our Adares and Claregalways look like minor delays.

Sponge Bob

The CIF tells us no projects are scheduled at all now.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0701/construction.html

Mr Parlon said the National Roads Authority started 216 kilometres of new roads in 2007. In 2008, the figure was 169km, but in 2009, he said, this would fall to 5.5km of motorway. As of now, there are no plans to start any new roads in 2010, Mr Parlon said.

That includes PPPs , even Newlands and Arklow and of course the Galway Bypass. Where did he find 5.5km of Motorway ? Surely he means Castleisland ??

Tech3

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The CIF tells us no projects are scheduled at all now.

That includes PPPs , even Newlands and Arklow and of course the Galway Bypass. Where did he find 5.5km of Motorway ? Surely he means Castleisland ??

How can they come out with a statement like that saying no projects are going ahead next year when the NRA have PPP's planned to start at the end of 2010. I'm slowly beginning to doubt whether any of these will ever go ahead in the next few years.

Yeah the Castleisland Bypass is 5.5km overall in length some of it 2+2 but not motorway. They never do their research always incorrect statements about every road project I ever see in the media.

This is basically the construction industry looking for a bailout. In fairness what does he expect? The government cant afford any more capital projects after the inter urbans. If there is no funding for PPP in the coming years then thats the end of our road building for a long time.

Chris_533976

The original PPP plans were for Newlands/Arklow-Rathnew and Gort - Tuam to start in late 2010. The others were 2011 (and maybe a bit later for the two M20 ones). These things tend to slip, but god know whether they actually will start with all thats going on. If the IMF pay a visit (getting more and more likely as the current lot cant sort things out), then they definately wont start. Hopefully all the current stuff will be done by then incase the IMF insist on a stop of current contracts.

Irish and Proud

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The original PPP plans were for Newlands/Arklow-Rathnew and Gort - Tuam to start in late 2010. The others were 2011 (and maybe a bit later for the two M20 ones). These things tend to slip, but god know whether they actually will start with all thats going on. If the IMF pay a visit (getting more and more likely as the current lot cant sort things out), then they definately wont start. Hopefully all the current stuff will be done by then incase the IMF insist on a stop of current contracts.

Don't know about that Chris...

If the IMF are called in, my guess is that they will be looking at the current expenditure side of things like health, social welfare, the size of the public service etc. Roads IMO would be the last thing they'd stop unless there was absolutely no economic benefit attached. For example, take the N7 Naas Bypass (opened 1983) - it was said to have paid for itself within 10 years - that's an average of 10% pa - even through the mid 1980's and early 1990's. Basically, roads stimulate economies and yield positive returns, while public services like health would be seen as dead money in strict economic terms. Obviously, the above position would be seen as very right wing, but my guess is the that people's welfare would not top the IMF's list of priorities. In fact, they may even tell us to spend more on roads and ports and less on everything else including rail.

However, we would just have to wait and see...

Regards!