Rifle pulls to the left?

clivej

Ater firing my CZ 22lr the rifle ends up to the left of where I was aiming could be 2"-5" or more. That's not to say that it's not on target it's just where it seems to go after each shot.
Am I holding it wrong?
It happens if resting on a post shooting rabbits or at the range benchrest off the 6"-9" harris bipod or a sand bag .

Vegeta

I'm no target shooter so I am sure the lads rrpc etc will give you the reasons

You right or left handed?

Jonty

Clive, the bipod when used, could be putting pressure on the scope barrel. Also the rifle might not be properly free floated. This would be easily rectified yourself.

Also I would recommend an Eric Brooks trigger kit as the cz trigger is sloppy.

clivej

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm no target shooter so I am sure the lads rrpc etc will give you the reasons

You right or left handed?

Right handed.
I get the target on sight/cross hair and pull the stock into my shoulder and hold the gun snuggly but not to tight. If off the bench then left hand is under the butt of the stock or if using a rear bag then holding the stock.
If off a post or gate then I hold the sling, left hand, at the front stud and pull sting strap down to steady the gun on the post/gate. front of the stock is on the post/gate just in front of the stud.

bigred

I know it's only a 22, but do you have a flinch or are you snapping at the trigger?

clivej

Jonty wrote: »

Clive, the bipod when used, could be putting pressure on the scope barrel. Also the rifle might not be properly free floated. This would be easily rectified yourself.

Also I would recommend an Eric Brooks trigger kit as the cz trigger is sloppy.

Is floated, raised it up now a business card will clear the barrel.
Brooks kit is fitted #2 light spring and the biggest tube. Tightened up the groups a lot now - down to 10 shot groups covered by 20 cent coin @50m less than 3/4":D on a GOOD day

But as a I say the groups are OK it's where the rifle ends up pointing after the shot is taken - always to the left.

Jonty

and its still pulling?

What about parrallax error? and what kind of scope is it??

clivej

Jonty wrote: »

and its still pulling?

What about parrallax error? and what kind of scope is it??

Nikko nighteater 8-32x60 AG IR.
I adjust the parrallax until just in focus on the target which is about right by the parrallax ring markings.
How do I check for parrallax error?

clivej

bigred wrote: »

I know it's only a 22, but do you have a flinch or are you snapping at the trigger?

Not at the range off the bench anyway quite relaxed when taking the shot. Don't know about off a post/gate. I can't hold it still if standing so don't even try to do that, I use a set of DIY bi/tri sticks.

rrpc

Generally a rifle will point in the direction it's being pushed towards after the shot is fired.

This can mean that for example you are perhaps using your left hand to direct the rifle to the left (using a small amount of pressure and muscle tension) which will be accentuated when the rifle jumps with the recoil.

There are many ways of getting this to happen, mostly relating to the parts of your body that are in contact with the rifle and right down to your breathing.

To check your alignment close your eyes, relax and breathe in and out to the hold part of your breathing rhythm and then open your eyes and see where your sights are pointing. If it's not on target then you could be 'forcing' alignment and you should readjust until you are aligned when you close your eyes and re-open.

clivej

rrpc wrote: »

Generally a rifle will point in the direction it's being pushed towards after the shot is fired.

This can mean that for example you are perhaps using your left hand to direct the rifle to the left (using a small amount of pressure and muscle tension) which will be accentuated when the rifle jumps with the recoil.

There are many ways of getting this to happen, mostly relating to the parts of your body that are in contact with the rifle and right down to your breathing.

To check your alignment close your eyes, relax and breathe in and out to the hold part of your breathing rhythm and then open your eyes and see where your sights are pointing. If it's not on target then you could be 'forcing' alignment and you should readjust until you are aligned when you close your eyes and re-open.

I know what your saying because I do find myself "pulling" the gun into/onto the target sometimes and have only now learnt to relax the hold on the gun to make sure I'm on target and then tighten up again, but it's difficult to break the habbit.
I think I need to get a good decent proper bench rest for the range, bags just don't cut it that good.

rrpc

clivej wrote: »

I know what your saying because I do find myself "pulling" the gun into/onto the target sometimes and have only now learnt to relax the hold on the gun to make sure I'm on target and then tighten up again, but it's difficult to break the habbit.

That could be your problem right there. There's no need to tighten up because your rifle is aligned on the target and you're holding it correctly. Tightening up implies that you are tensioning muscles that don't need to be tensioned.

Your right hand grips the stock with the same pressure that you need to hold a full pint (everyone here should be familiar with that ), the fore end rests on your left hand (fingers should not grip the fore end) and your cheek should be in position on the stock so that your eye is aligned with the sights properly.

No undue pressure should be exerted by any of these parts.

If you take the benchrest shooters perspective, the only part of your body that touches the rifle is your finger on the trigger.

Sparks

Ah, the natural point of aim
Biomechanics is a thing of beauty...

clivej

Thanks. I'm going to the Midlands range in the morning so this time I will ask how to do it correctly and also try out these tips.
Clive......

clivej

Back from the range now Sunday, went yesterday as well
I was testing CCI stingers yesterday @50m & 100m I think I'll stick to the Lapua & Eley subs for 50m & 100m, they group well at those ranges for me.

Learnt a lot to day, after putting 300+ rounds down the range @50m. Shooting 5 shot groups I got a lot of 3 shots hole on hole, grouping at less than @3/4" many @1/2" and a few 3 shot bulls hole on hole so I must be doing something better.
I'm getting the cross hairs on the target and then just gently putting the butt into my shoulder BUT what I think helped a lot was to lift my cheek off the stock instead of pulling the stock onto my cheek.

I'll try again next week.

Sparks

It's down to your muscle structure clive. There's a group of muscle fibres running through the centre of most muscle groups that triggers the muscle to contract if it extends past a certain point (to prevent over-extending and damaging a joint). Sharp impulses will also set them off and contract the muscle (and there are other mechanisms that do the same thing). Fast-twitch muscles like your biceps are particularly susceptible to this. So if you're holding the rifle on target when your body position would naturally align the rifle towards somewhere else, when you fire the resulting impulse from the recoil causes your muscles to twitch (because they're under tension holding the rifle away from it's natural point of aim) and you flick the rifle away from the target. Depending on the lock time of your trigger mechanism and the mass of the bullet/pellet and various things about the force behind it and how fast it builds up, the amount by which this affects the point of impact varies, but it's usually enough to break up a group. In things like air rifle or air pistol, it's far worse - it'll happily throw you to the five ring or further (low mass, low energy, long time in the barrel).

The way to prevent all that is to align your body so the rifle's natural point of aim is the middle of the target and to trigger smoothly. You check the natural point of aim like rrpc said - line up on target, close your eyes, breathe normally for a few breaths, then open your eyes. The first place you see the rifle pointing the instant you open your eyes, that's the natural point of aim. It's difficult to do this because you have a natural instinct to point the rifle at the target, but if you can't see it, you'll see where it wants to go and can scooch it around to put it on target.

clivej

Targets from last Sunday.
Doing better but I must get a real shooting rest instead of the harris bi-pod and rear bag. SAK mod was not fitted to the other targets.
3" target with 1/2" centre black ring with 1/4" centre white dot.





I took the packing out that I use for floating the barrel and the results are here. Barrel touches the stock without it in. I was still aiming at the bulls eye.

rrpc

Couple of questions and observations for you clive

Was there much of a wind that day?
What's the trigger weight on the CZ? is it the factory standard?
Is that a 1" ten ring?

You will get flyers with Lapua Club, even at 25 yards it'll throw a few off target.
The CZ factory trigger weight is quite heavy and you may find yourself either pulling the rifle off target or gripping the rifle tightly to prevent this. There are ways to lighten the trigger.

Try using a box or two of Lapua Master or Eley Match EPS to see if there's any difference: there should be.

Jonty

clivej wrote: »

I took the packing out that I use for floating the barrel and the results are here. Barrel touches the stock without it in. I was still aiming at the bulls eye.

[/IMG]

Don't you mean you bedded instead of floated the barrel?

clivej

rrpc wrote: »

Couple of questions and observations for you clive

Was there much of a wind that day?
What's the trigger weight on the CZ? is it the factory standard?
Is that a 1" ten ring?

You will get flyers with Lapua Club, even at 25 yards it'll throw a few off target.
The CZ factory trigger weight is quite heavy and you may find yourself either pulling the rifle off target or gripping the rifle tightly to prevent this. There are ways to lighten the trigger.

Try using a box or two of Lapua Master or Eley Match EPS to see if there's any difference: there should be.

No wind.
Brooks trigger kit fitted #2 lightest spring thickest tube.
Lapua Master no better than Lapua Club. Using Eley target and Lapua on these targets. Lets face it I've only got a CZ 22 lr style here.
3" target, 1/4" rings, with a 1" inner 10 ring with a 1/2" black ring with a 1/4" white centre dot.

Jonty wrote: »

Don't you mean you bedded instead of floated the barrel?

NO. Clive's quick way of 'Floating' his barrel in the CZ style........

I cut a small piece of the plastic from the bottom of a Dunnes Stores €1 carry bag about the size of a credit card. I put this between the barrel and the stock just behind the front lug screw. It lifted the barrel just enough to allow a folded sheet of typing paper, 3 thickness's, to slide down between the barrel and the stock. Without this the barrel touches the stock at the forend all the way back to the action front lug/screw.
This works for me.

My groups got smaller as I proved to myself today when I took out the piece of plastic for a 5 x 5 shot group. POI move up 2" and group opened up to 2"+.

rrpc

clivej wrote: »

No wind.
Brooks trigger kit fitted #2 lightest spring thickest tube.
Lapua Master no better than Lapua Club. Using Eley target and Lapua on these targets.

I beg to disagree there Clive . We test a lot of ammo indoors at 25 yards and Lapua Club will produce fliers with monotonous regularity. Nobody uses it any more, not even for training.

You may not be able to tell outdoors whether it's you, the wind, the rifle or the ammo, but move indoors and it soon becomes apparent.

clivej

rrpc wrote: »

I beg to disagree there Clive . We test a lot of ammo indoors at 25 yards and Lapua Club will produce fliers with monotonous regularity. Nobody uses it any more, not even for training.

You may not be able to tell outdoors whether it's you, the wind, the rifle or the ammo, but move indoors and it soon becomes apparent.

But I must say I'm getting a lot better than when I first got the CZ.
2 1/2" - 3" at 50m with remington sub sh!te ammo. I will try the Eley EPS, none in stock at Stakelums, and I have some Lapua Master to try this Sunday.:D

rrpc

If you want to try it indoors anytime, drop me a pm and I'll arrange it. I can even provide a few different brands/types of ammo.

clivej

rrpc wrote: »

If you want to try it indoors anytime, drop me a pm and I'll arrange it. I can even provide a few different brands/types of ammo.

Thanks RRPC, I may just do that but at the moment moving the house around and getting things done before the winter. :eek: