Big Brother Style RFID electronic border controll being introduced between UK & Eire

thelordofcheese · 25-07-2008 9:46pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Well, I have been doing a lot of research on youtube and it turns out that the RFID chips are going to be installed in everyone of us to control our minds, fooling us into thinking we are reverse vampires, which are controlled by the rand corporation who in turn are paid off by the freemsaons/illuminati/vatican. Once we are under the mind control of the RFID chips, the lizards will make a move to create a One World Government through which they can control the world from their base in Equitorial Guinea. And why do they plan to do this?

MONEEEEEEEEY

Your words are compelling indeed, now if you'd just like to step over here into this dark alleyway and we can discuss things more.

DubTony · 25-07-2008 9:53pm

ART6 wrote: »

Since the defence against terrorism has already caused the declaration of war on and the invasion of two countries with countless civilian deaths maybe we should be thankful that this is all our democratic representatives are planning. Union of Socialist Soviet Republics of Europe has a certain ring to it:)

We already have it ART6. The Union of Socialist European Republics or European Union for short.

It's a bit different to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or Soviet Union for short.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !

.

DubTony · 25-07-2008 9:56pm

luckat wrote: »

It's all the 1984 state so charmingly described by Orwell. We are all being taught to live in fear.

This is a) an infringment of personal liberty and privacy, b) completely unnecessary, c) ridiculously expensive, d) done without the will or desire of the voters.

I know how I'll be using my vote next time - Vote Them Out.

Edit: though actually I'm feeling less and less like staying in this country - a country that once cared about freedom and individual liberty.

So where are you going to go luckat? If this nonsense gets hold, it'll be in all developed countries within a decade. The yanks sneaked the Real ID thing through the senate as a "must pass" bill as part of anti-terror legislation of some sort.

luckat · 25-07-2008 10:03pm

Somewhere Mediterranean, maybe, more relaxed, more cynical, with a saner view of Bush and Co and their maiden-aunt hysterics.

Somewhere proud of a heritage of liberty.

kowloon · 25-07-2008 10:06pm

luckat wrote: »

Somewhere Mediterranean, maybe, more relaxed, more cynical, with a saner view of Bush and Co and their maiden-aunt hysterics.

Somewhere proud of a heritage of liberty.

Name a country so we can all pick holes in your idea

.

andrew · 25-07-2008 10:10pm

DubTony wrote: »

We already have it ART6. The Union of Socialist European Republics or European Union for short.

It's a bit different to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or Soviet Union for short.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !

.

with a few small countries in the middle which happen to be in both at the same time!

luckat · 25-07-2008 10:15pm

kowloon wrote: »

Name a country so we can all pick holes in your idea .

A few years ago my answer would have been 'Ireland'.

Steyr · 25-07-2008 10:22pm

I welcome this, so unless you have something to fear or are a nasty person then whats the problem.

Hellm0 · 25-07-2008 10:49pm

Steyr wrote: »

I welcome this, so unless you have something to fear or are a nasty person then whats the problem.

Well I guess I would answer that by asking you who decides who is a "nasty person". Jew's were given numbers, were they nasty people? I'm sure with RFID technology the next holocaust will go ALOT smoother eh brother?

But also to put this in a legal tone, it comes down to whether we view people as innocent until proven guilty or guilty until they get a RFID chip installed in their arm.

For instance, in most circumstances, were I walking down the street and were I stopped by a Garda who then proceeded to demand my details, personal history, work history, medical history etc I could tell them to politely f*ck off as they have no legislated reason for demanding said information.

Whereas, with this kind of technology the Guard can happily invade my privacy without even needing to speak to me. Where is the order of law in that? Guards require legislation to allow them to do certain thing's, if they are able to bypass our privacy this easily what next?

People broadcast alot of information about themselves already, in the form of volatile odors. You may not think it but alot can be told about you from the scents you emit; gender, race, general health. Even your emotions are sometime's detectable, IE "the smell of fear".

Do you want people to have the right, nay the obligation to scrutinise you that much? Does anyone?

Would you like to live in one of these?

kowloon · 25-07-2008 10:52pm

luckat wrote: »

A few years ago my answer would have been 'Ireland'.

Too easy, pick another!

luckat · 25-07-2008 11:25pm

Why does our government consider this necessary?

Why do we allow our government to do this?

For those who welcome it - it's available to you already. If you want to get a biometric passport, you can get one. It'll get you through borders faster, at the moment, because few people have them.

But please don't try to impose them on the rest of us.

These tags are another method of keeping people frightened, obedient and sheep-like. It doesn't make for a brave, creative, entrepreneurial country to have sheepy, scared citizens.

Run_to_da_hills · 25-07-2008 11:44pm

luckat wrote: »

Why does our government consider this necessary?

Why do we allow our government to do this?

For those who welcome it - it's available to you already. If you want to get a biometric passport, you can get one. It'll get you through borders faster, at the moment, because few people have them.

But please don't try to impose them on the rest of us.

These tags are another method of keeping people frightened, obedient and sheep-like. It doesn't make for a brave, creative, entrepreneurial country to have sheepy, scared citizens.

The Government have been conned into accepting these international draconian RFID security measures in the exact same manner that every other nation that has been forced into accepting it. They had no choice, if they rejected it they would NOT be co operating in this so called international "war against terrorism".

These are the dirty lies........

It will curb illegal migration
It will prevent Islamic terrorism entering the UK through Ireland
It will help in the international fight against terrorism
It will help stop drug trafficking,

In Reality

It will keep illegal migration away from the officilal ports of entry.
It will keep any "terrorists" or wanted men away from entering any of the official port of entry.
It won't make any difference what so ever to any of the trawler loads of hash and coke that is currently entering or leaving this country.

andrew · 26-07-2008 2:02am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It will curb illegal migration
It will keep illegal migration away from the officilal ports of entry.

Keeping illegal migration away from official ports of entry would curb the total number of people entering, curbing illegal migration. 'Unofficial' ways of access aren't exactly easy to come by. wahey!

It will prevent Islamic terrorism entering the UK through Ireland
It will keep any "terrorists" or wanted men away from entering any of the official port of entry.

as above

It will help stop drug trafficking,

In Reality
It won't make any difference what so ever to any of the trawler loads of hash and coke that is currently entering or leaving this country.

It'd make it harder for people with drug trafficing convictions to enter the country without being recognised as one. This would curb drug trafficing.

SimpleSam06 · 26-07-2008 8:22am

shayser wrote: »

RFID is happening; and not just for passports. Livestock RFID is pretty advanced, RFID for all drugs will be a legal requirement in California soon. It's in consumer products. It's fully implemented for some scenarios in the US, bullied into existence by likes of the Walmarts and the Krogers and the Supervalues. Police and soldiers in the US have them in their arms.

RFID is worthless in many situations. Walmart and the other supermarkets found it actually led to a decrease in productivity since you can't read RFID signals through a pallet of mixed goods, you'd need a three dimensional locator vectored on the user and the goods, way too much for whatever benefit they might gain from it. Police and soldiers don't have it in their guns. For livestock I can see some benefits alright. As for it being read at a distance, its relatively simple to put it in a screening wallet which hides the signal.

chuci wrote: »

if you got nothing to hide i dont really see the problem like.

Post up your phone number and address for us all to see, so. I mean, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, right?

Overall I'm anti-RFID for passports, it doesn't bring much benefit as opposed to say a barcode, although it does give people who want to control crowds an erection, even if it doesn't work like they think it does.

However we do need to control that open border with the UK, its way too easy to move people and goods across it in the wide open.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-07-2008 9:40am

andrew wrote: »

Keeping illegal migration away from official ports of entry would curb the total number of people entering, curbing illegal migration. 'Unofficial' ways of access aren't exactly easy to come by. wahey!

.

ROFL, Ireland as an Island has 3500 miles of coastline, with hundreds unmanned regional airstrips across the country and if such draconian measures are implemented people will risk travelling into the country through them, America has a huge problem with illegal aliens getting into the country up from Mexico and through the Florida keys, They are drafting in the Real ID card to try to curb all this, this RFID SMART card MUST be carried at all times, something that we can expect in the near future from the Common Market.

andrew wrote: »

It'd make it harder for people with drug trafficking convictions to enter the country without being recognised as one. This would curb drug trafficking.

As above, drug traffickers that are any way on the wanted list would have the cash to hire a private plane or boat to get into the country, As you say these new measures may deter the small fry drug dealer trying to sneak into Dublin Airport with a couple of ounces of hash.

Ziggurat · 26-07-2008 10:02am

To all those arguing "you have nothing to hide" (oh, how I despise that argument): how about you post up your bank details, PPS number, name, address and phone number.

After all, as you say, you've nothing to hide.

DubTony · 26-07-2008 10:45am

The basic question isn't being answered here. Carrying a card that contains "details" in itself is no "risk" to the individual. The information on these cards, I assume, is just the basics. It's the information on the computer that scans the card that's the real "threat". Aren't these cards simply a "barcode", that refers to data on a central database?

So here is the basic question.

Does the Irish government share private details with other governments about every citizen in the country? Does the government share our "details" with the EU, so that we are all on a central European database? If it does we have a problem, i.e. our liberty is being eroded. If it doesn't, where's the issue?

Taken down to a more basic level, the data protection act prevents sharing of sensitive information, so do government departments share information with private companies or other government departments?

If all our information is kept where it's supposed to be, and not handed out willy nilly, the only information a foreign country will have is what's on the card. Ok, if you're convicted of a crime in the UK, you can expect to get some grief from a cop when he checks your ID, but this happens today if a cop sees your car and calls the office because he's suspicious. But that's been the case for years.

Is it so bad that a cop in an airport can tell who you are from 6 feet, when the chances are you'll be producing ID at some point anyway?

Where is the real issue here? Or have I missed something?

Run_to_da_hills · 26-07-2008 11:32am

Quinine wrote: »

To all those arguing "you have nothing to hide" (oh, how I despise that argument): how about you post up your bank details, PPS number, name, address and phone number.

After all, as you say, you've nothing to hide.

To those that are ignorant about RFID and its potential, this following video demonstrates to you EXACTLY what can happen if you have your RFID passport or ID card on your possession in public. It makes absolutely no difference what so ever if it is hidden in your pocket or hand bag as it can be read several feet from you by simply entering through a portal scanner, i.e. shopping mall / airport main entrance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmD4iTXRLE

You might as well be carrying your name address, phone number, bank details, medical history, RSI No, criminal records, insurance details on a billboard and be walking around with it.

gixerfixer · 26-07-2008 11:51am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To those that are ignorant about RFID and its potential, this following video demonstrates to you EXACTLY what can happen if you have your RFID passport or ID card on your possession in public. It makes absolutely no difference what so ever if it is hidden in your pocket or hand bag as it can be read several feet from you by simply entering through a portal scanner, i.e. shopping mall / airport main entrance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmD4iTXRLE

Holy ****.Scarcy stuff.They really are chipping away at all our rights bit by bit.On a side note seen on the news yesterday that a council in England has brought in a law outlawing kids from being out on the street after 9pm,i mean this really is unbelieveable....whats next,the outlawing of hoddies in certain areas...oh wait a minute

SimpleSam06 · 26-07-2008 12:11pm

DubTony wrote: »

Where is the real issue here? Or have I missed something?

Well lets say for example you don't like what your government is doing. Or were at a protest about the seedy corporate practices of some multinational, who also happens to be a major contributor to your local politician.

So whoever is in charge puts you on a list for special attention, call it a terrorist watchlist, high risk category or whatever.

The local John Q Laws can spot you coming from a distance, question you at random, conduct searches, its actually quite difficult to not break any laws these days. Maybe your MP3 player or phone has copyrighted music in it, they can then gain access to your house and you'd better hope none of your porn resembles a juvenile in any way. Double park and your car gets impounded. Maybe you had a couple of beers the night before, 9am you get pulled over on your way to work and thats a DUI.

If you make carrying an RFID passport mandatory in everyday life, the logical next step is to tag people like cattle, that way you can't leave it behind by accident.

The above is a hypothetical situation, its highly unlikely that any of it would happen today. But the question is, could it happen tomorrow? The abuse of such systems is a given, and its really surprising how fast this crap can escalate out of control if nobody speaks up.

gixerfixer · 26-07-2008 12:20pm

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Well lets say for example you don't like what your government is doing. Or were at a protest about the seedy corporate practices of some multinational, who also happens to be a major contributor to your local politician.

So whoever is in charge puts you on a list for special attention, call it a terrorist watchlist, high risk category or whatever.

The local John Q Laws can spot you coming from a distance, question you at random, conduct searches, its actually quite difficult to not break any laws these days. Maybe your MP3 player or phone has copyrighted music in it, they can then gain access to your house and you'd better hope none of your porn resembles a juvenile in any way. Double park and your car gets impounded. Maybe you had a couple of beers the night before, 9am you get pulled over on your way to work and thats a DUI.

If you make carrying an RFID passport mandatory in everyday life, the logical next step is to tag people like cattle, that way you can't leave it behind by accident.

The above is a hypothetical situation, its highly unlikely that any of it would happen today. But the question is, could it happen tomorrow? The abuse of such systems is a given, and its really surprising how fast this crap can escalate out of control if nobody speaks up.

Excellent post.It's a hypothetical situation alright but how far are we really from the tagging of each and every human? IMO it's no more than 15-20 years away...All this crap about "if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" is so narrow minded

Steve · 26-07-2008 12:30pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To those that are ignorant about RFID and its potential, this following video demonstrates to you EXACTLY what can happen if you have your RFID passport or ID card on your possession in public. It makes absolutely no difference what so ever if it is hidden in your pocket or hand bag as it can be read several feet from you by simply entering through a portal scanner, i.e. shopping mall / airport main entrance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmD4iTXRLE

He he... that's not exactly possible yet - maybe in the future.

This is though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmajlKJlT3U

SimpleSam06 · 26-07-2008 12:36pm

SteveC wrote: »

He he... that's not exactly possible yet - maybe in the future.

Actually that was my first thought, but you know what, it actually is possible. By hooking up an entryway reader at the entrance to the mall you can track individual moving objects over closed circuit cameras. Facial recognition isn't needed since you already have each object tagged, with repeaters on the escalators and entrances to the shops just to be sure. By hooking that up with POS systems in each shop and cross referencing with a central database, you could pull it off alright.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-07-2008 12:55pm

SteveC wrote: »

He he... that's not exactly possible yet - maybe in the future.
]

Like next Month when you pass under the Westlink toll with your brand new RFID based Easy pass transmitter on your dashboard.

Ziggurat · 26-07-2008 1:26pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To those that are ignorant about RFID and its potential, this following video demonstrates to you EXACTLY what can happen if you have your RFID passport or ID card on your possession in public. It makes absolutely no difference what so ever if it is hidden in your pocket or hand bag as it can be read several feet from you by simply entering through a portal scanner, i.e. shopping mall / airport main entrance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmD4iTXRLE

You might as well be carrying your name address, phone number, bank details, medical history, RSI No, criminal records, insurance details on a billboard and be walking around with it.

Precisely. It seems the insecurity of RFID tags is all too often overlooked or passed off as being an acceptable risk.

andrew · 26-07-2008 4:57pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

ROFL, Ireland as an Island has 3500 miles of coastline, with hundreds unmanned regional airstrips across the country and if such draconian measures are implemented people will risk travelling into the country through them, America has a huge problem with illegal aliens getting into the country up from Mexico and through the Florida keys, They are drafting in the Real ID card to try to curb all this, this RFID SMART card MUST be carried at all times, something that we can expect in the near future from the Common Market.

As above, drug traffickers that are any way on the wanted list would have the cash to hire a private plane or boat to get into the country, As you say these new measures may deter the small fry drug dealer trying to sneak into Dublin Airport with a couple of ounces of hash.

You overestimate the ease with which someone can simply sail over here and dock at some random port without being caught by the costguard. I somehow doubt Ireland is big enough to host clandestine drug running airstrips. Anyway, the point is that RFID's would make it harder for criminals to enter the country and therefore would act as a deterrent to those looking to enter.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To those that are ignorant about RFID and its potential, this following video demonstrates to you EXACTLY what can happen if you have your RFID passport or ID card on your possession in public. It makes absolutely no difference what so ever if it is hidden in your pocket or hand bag as it can be read several feet from you by simply entering through a portal scanner, i.e. shopping mall / airport main entrance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmD4iTXRLE

Yeah this could be done with RFID scanners, but why bother? Why assume that the government would go to the trouble of doing more with RFID's other than border control?

You might as well be carrying your name address, phone number, bank details, medical history, RSI No, criminal records, insurance details on a billboard and be walking around with it.

Well, no. If that was the case then anyone could read those details. An RFID card would only carry a number refrencing a database which would have limited access. Thats assuming that the government would go to the trouble of setting up such a massive, pointless database.

People here really overestimate the desire of the Irish government to implement such large, seemingly pointless, relativly easily circumvented, expensive and controversial plans.

SimpleSam06 · 26-07-2008 5:37pm

andrew wrote: »

People here really overestimate the desire of the Irish government to implement such large, seemingly pointless, relativly easily circumvented, expensive and controversial plans.

Yes, its not like the EU would mandate something like that, ever...

shayser · 26-07-2008 6:01pm

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

RFID is worthless in many situations. Walmart and the other supermarkets found it actually led to a decrease in productivity since you can't read RFID signals through a pallet of mixed goods, you'd need a three dimensional locator vectored on the user and the goods, way too much for whatever benefit they might gain from it. Police and soldiers don't have it in their guns. For livestock I can see some benefits alright. As for it being read at a distance, its relatively simple to put it in a screening wallet which hides the signal.

The food/product providers in the US are in this for the long haul. They even considered RFID in the actual food itself. They have put suppliers who could not afford to implement RFID out of business. By "in their arms" I meant as in "hands, shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes, la la la la etc". Blocking wallets? They'll be as legal as speed camera dectectors or cb radios.

andrew · 26-07-2008 6:56pm

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yes, its not like the EU would mandate something like that, ever...

A massive central database containing all of our personal details? Are you implying that they have done this? When did they do this? What's the database called?

Sherifu · 26-07-2008 7:10pm

Word on the street is you will need one of these to travel between UK & Ireland.

Flamed Diving · 26-07-2008 7:11pm

Sherifu wrote: »

Word on the street is you will need one of these to travel between UK & Ireland.

roflcopter

SimpleSam06 · 28-07-2008 8:40am

shayser wrote: »

The food/product providers in the US are in this for the long haul. They even considered RFID in the actual food itself. They have put suppliers who could not afford to implement RFID out of business.

No. Despite Walmarts best efforts, their RFID initiative fell flat on its face. It just doesn't work that well for something like Walmart.

shayser wrote: »

Blocking wallets? They'll be as legal as speed camera dectectors or cb radios.

You need a licence to operate a radio, they aren't illegal. And what, are they going to make wallet sized metallic plates illegal now?

andrew wrote: »

A massive central database containing all of our personal details? Are you implying that they have done this? When did they do this? What's the database called?

No, the EU has never done this, nor did I say they had. However they are doing all sorts of new things these days, what with treaties passing and giving all of our private information to the US, who absoloutely are building a massive central database. After all, why should they go to the expense of setting up a database when they can just log in to the American one.

shayser · 01-08-2008 2:01am

Think things will get very claustrophobic.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/TSA_performing_emotional_screening_of_passengers_0729.html

A security guard with a weeks training can detain you, if you miss a step.

(From behind the airport security glass, "Hmm... don't like the look of this guy. Let's see.. name, address, occupation, medical history, his chip is clean. Don't like the way he's glancing about though, let's pull him in. Pity he'll miss his flight. I'm sure he'll appreciate were just doing our job. Must mark his chip Suspicious, just in case.")

Big Brother Style RFID electronic border controll being introduced between UK & Eire

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