lying b*****ds

dubman25

CharlieCroker wrote: »

I'm not gonna deny there are some lazy ones, the same as in all jobs.
But tarring them all with same brush is over the top.
That's like saying ALL postmen lose your post or ALL Lifeguards are 6'2 and have a 6 pack. We all know thats not true so why do some people believe that all Guards are lazy b@5stards????

Because they run away from the trouble...a checkpoint there and 2 mins away sc*mbags getting on with life.Also you dont see garda at rush hour traffic.they have know power end of story!:Dwell sorry just with tax and insurance they do!

CharlieCroker

well, your all entitled to your opinions. I dont agree with them but i respect them so i'm not getting into an arguement about it.
I just hope that in the future, if you REALLY need a Garda to help you with something, they'll change your opinion.


PS Dubman, it's NO power, not KNOW power!!!!!!!

dubman25

CharlieCroker wrote: »

well, your all entitled to your opinions. I dont agree with them but i respect them so i'm not getting into an arguement about it.
I just hope that in the future, if you REALLY need a Garda to help you with something, they'll change your opinion.

Well i pay towards there wages and in my view they do not protect the public!They are just as bad as the judges in the courts!:rolleyes:

Ps..use capitals at the start!

jimmycrackcorm

Stekelly wrote: »

Where should they park it? In the bus lane?

That Green transit used to park on the road side on the liffey valley overpass.

It's time the Guards got a new van seeing as the situation is so bad that so many people can recognise that van now that they have to start hiding it.

Bee

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It would be very expensive to have a visible Garda presence everywhere. Keeping people guessing about where they might be caught is more cost effective. The fact that people behave differently when they think they might be caught, proves the point that discipline and not education is the problem to be addressed.

A professional Garda traffic corps that applies the law evenly to all road users is what is required , all the GArdai achieve by this behaviour is public opprobrium and contempt and achieves nothing for road safety.

This contemptible and useless mis-management of Garda resources has been proven over time to do nothing to reduce fatal accidents, shame on them.

Their apologist pretends that they are not interested in "shooting fish in a barrel" whilst the these boys holding their tools behind bus shelters achieves nought for road safety but only alienates the public.

I suggest they should be re-appointed to other duties if they decided this was a good idea and if as I suspect their "management" thought this is a way of enforcing road safety, well then they should be sacked.

Guy:Incognito

Bee wrote: »

A professional Garda traffic corps that applies the law evenly to all road users is what is required , all the GArdai achieve by this behaviour is public opprobrium and contempt and achieves nothing for road safety.

This contemptible and useless mis-management of Garda resources has been proven over time to do nothing to reduce fatal accidents, shame on them.

Their apologist pretends that they are not interested in "shooting fish in a barrel" whilst the these boys holding their tools behind bus shelters achieves nought for road safety but only alienates the public.

I suggest they should be re-appointed to other duties if they decided this was a good idea and if as I suspect their "management" thought this is a way of enforcing road safety, well then they should be sacked.

At the end of the day, Gatso cameras and the like are a simple soution as it allows a Garda to go about other duties so uses less man power. If unmanned cameras could be set up to stop and catch drug dealers nobody would have a problem as it would be a simple and cost effective solution to a problem. But the issue here is it affects the normal "im only dreakign a law I dont agree with anyway" joe, so i gets peoples backs up.

dubman25 wrote: »

The gardai in ireland are a disgrace,along with the traffic corps etc!

Are the traffic cops not Gardai now? or are they grown in a lab? I hate all those Gardai in England and France myself. The Germany Gardai arent the worst.:rolleyes:

BTW, should that not be Guardai?

CharlieCroker

So what if the van is at the side of the road???
If your not speeding i.e. breaking the law, then its not a problem!!
If you are speeding, then you get your fine and your 2 points and maybe if your intelligent, you'll slow down in future.
It's not rocket science.

the_syco

You see sop, cop car, etc, you slow down. You speed, you get fined two weeks later. By then, you could already have knocked down someone whilst speeding.

I'm more for the "we're watching you" big brother style policing, rather than the "ha ha we saw you two weeks ago speeding" that the gatso vans are used for.

Guy:Incognito

the_syco wrote: »

You see sop, cop car, etc, you slow down. You speed, you get fined two weeks later. By then, you could already have knocked down someone whilst speeding.

I'm more for the "we're watching you" big brother style policing, rather than the "ha ha we saw you two weeks ago speeding" that the gatso vans are used for.

Most people will know straight away that they at the very least passed the camera whileover the limit, because they see the camera as they go past, They certainly see the lines on the road and/or the flash for fised cameras and can spot a Gard in his vis gear. So it's not usually a case of total surprise when it drops through the letterbox.

agent_smith

To be honest I believe that the money could be better used elsewhere. Given the current economic climate the mental health system will be hit hard next year due to government cutbacks. Instead of increasing the shoot fish in barrel budget ( targeting main roads instead of back roads) I would prefer that the increased budget was given to the mental health system.
Alternatively if the government does want to increase the Garda budget next year, why not pump the extra money into targeting the drug gangs in dublin, cork and limerick. How many lives lost each year to capital crimes such as murder and homicide in our nations cities?
Another potential use of this money ... provide help for the people that i see strung out on a daily basis at the luas stop on middle abbey street. Or at least pump extra cash into child welfare. Often times you will see parents strung out and their baby sitting watching them in a pram. Frightening stuff.
A friend of mine works at a local primary school and she has told me that the school does not have the budget for an additional special needs teacher that is urgently required.... why not pump the extra money into this... ?
I could go on....

I suppose my point is that there are areas of society that we could all agree would be better served if additional money was provided. I have no problem with the gardai, they are people doing their jobs under the law and the instructions of the RSA. My problem like many here is that most 'road safety campaigns' appear (at least to the general public), to be money making schemes and not designed to target real danger hotspots.

Dont even get me started on the RSA's recent decision to ban bikers from bus lanes... their 'evidence' is in stark contrast to other european states.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/motoring/2008/01/26/mflane126.xml

shazkeav

Hang on a mo...Arent GATSO cameras rear facing(out the small square 'special' window at the back). What were they trying to catch? The spEed of the bus shelter!! Garda generally use a handheld device for the front side....

zero19

the_syco wrote: »

You see sop, cop car, etc, you slow down. You speed, you get fined two weeks later. By then, you could already have knocked down someone whilst speeding.

I'm more for the "we're watching you" big brother style policing, rather than the "ha ha we saw you two weeks ago speeding" that the gatso vans are used for.

+1 They should be out and visable preventing accidents rather than hiding in a ditch handing out fines a few weeks later...

peasant

for everybodies info

I've done some massive pruning to this thread and cut out all the off topic waffle that happened overnight.

@dubman 25
pull of something like that again and you're taking a long break from here

cyclopath2001

agent_smith wrote: »

My problem like many here is that most 'road safety campaigns' appear (at least to the general public), to be money making schemes and not designed to target real danger hotspots.

Another point of view would be that everyone thinks that the Gardai should be enforcing against someone else. When I got my first (and second last) speeding ticket many years ago, it shook me out of a smug conceit that I was a better driver than most.

agent_smith wrote: »

Dont even get me started on the RSA's recent decision to ban bikers from bus lanes...

Just to clarify: motorcyclists have always been forbidden from using use bus lanes, just as cars are. It's not a recent decision. I agree that it is a topic that merits a well-considered discussion elsewhere.

Eru

buzzard wrote: »

The purpose about this is that it is sneaky and it changes people attitude about the Garda.

Allow me too suggest that Gardai and police in general SHOULD be sneaky.

Perhaps it would be better if all plain clothes, surveillance and undercover work was abandoned then sit back and wait for criminals to get a good solid dose of conscience.

As for sending this van too Donegal or wherever, you do realise there is more than one don’t you? And they operate within the divisions they are assigned to. For example, its possible that there is a gatso van parked up on a road that you didn’t actually travel on. That sounds shocking I know, police doing something that you personally didn’t witness but it could happen.

ninty9er

dubman25 wrote: »

The guards haha sure they dont have much power...just about enough to do you for speeding and tax:Dmore interested in doing you for these instead of getting s*um off the streets!

So would you prefer there were 2 Gardaí at the site 24/7 to inspect you vehicle as well as giving you points and a fine, or would you rather they were catching the scum, because they can't be in 2 places at once!

dubman25

peasant wrote: »

for everybodies info

I've done some massive pruning to this thread and cut out all the off topic waffle that happened overnight.

@dubman 25
pull of something like that again and you're taking a long break from here

Hold on a minute,this site is for giving your views so no point in pointing the finger at somebody who gives there views now is there!!!!

reported

peasant

dubman25 wrote: »

reported

...and now banned instead of just warned for ca 20 posts of off topic waffle and trolling

cpoh1

Setting aside the fact that the camera should be on that stretch of road or not do people think the gatso should be there to catch people speeding and sending fines out 3 weeks later after they have sped down the road at 20kph over the limit? Or would people prefer the camera to be signposted at the top of the road, have people slow down and pass through the area at or under the speed limit?

One of these options involves road safety the other invloves revenue collection. Is the idea of a speed camera to collect money for the goernment coffers or get people to slow down?

CharlieCroker

cpoh1 wrote: »

Setting aside the fact that the camera should be on that stretch of road or not do people think the gatso should be there to catch people speeding and sending fines out 3 weeks later after they have sped down the road at 20kph over the limit? Or would people prefer the camera to be signposted at the top of the road, have people slow down and pass through the area at or under the speed limit?

One of these options involves road safety the other invloves revenue collection. Is the idea of a speed camera to collect money for the goernment coffers or get people to slow down?

So you can speed up again after you're past the van/speedgun?
That means you only slow down when you know there's a speedcheck and go along as normal otherwise. But if you don't know where the speedchecks are, hopefully you'll slow down the whole time.
yes, you get the ticket a couple of weeks later, but thats just a logistical issue. the result is the same, you get your fine, get your 2 points and with luck you'll slow down in future so you don't get caught again.

astraboy

The problem with these speed checks, and peoples opposing views on them, is that one side believes the laws regarding speed limits, the placing, formation and use of speed limits, and the application of the law, is infallaible. I think most, if not all reasonable minded people would agree that they are not. Speed limits and their enforcement are curtailed and directed wrongly often due to political pressue. Hence limits too low for high standards of roads, and speed checks in areas of large straight roads with low accident rates.

"But its the law" ye cry, and it must bo obeyed! Don't speed and you will have nothing to worry about! True, but even the besty drivers have momentry lapses in concentration. I would prefer a driver to watch the road, and adjust their speed to the conditions and traffic, weather etc, then use the speed limit as a guide on the open road. Residental areas are different, we all know its 50kph for a reason.

My arguments surround the large national secondary routes and motorways. If proper driver training were introduced a highly increased limit on motorways would probably not lead to an increase in accidents. Drivers would probably drive faster no doubt, but I reckon many would cruise along about the 120-135kph mark, which in a modern car, on a motorway with engineered design speeds of over 100mph, is not that dangerous(all traffic, weather etc permitting).

The fact remains that this shooting fish in a barrel tactic has two bad results:

It does not save lives, as the speed checks are on straight safe roads with low accident rates.

It turns people against the guards and their efforts, as they are seen (rightly IMO) to be chasing politically generated targets for speeding, and revenue.

I would really like to see more cops on the roads. Pulling over dangerous drivers, drivers hogging the overtaking lane, drunk drivers, and even those going too fast(often completely different to speeding! ). Perhaps letting the guy off 10kph over the limit while (safetly) executing an overtake, or using a bit of discretion would also raise peoples opinion of the cops. A stern talking to there and then is far better then 2 points in the post 3 weeks later.

I do admit to breaking the speed limit, in fact I did it several times today. However, I always do so keeping in mind the car I'm driving, the road conditions, weather, traffic and visibility. Today was a clear day, light traffic in the evening, driving a recently serviced 06 Hyundai. I do NOT have time for those endangering other road users, however I fail to see how me doing 115kph on certain straight bits of road from Cork to Skibbereen endangers others. If people, myself included, drive dangerously, then let the law come down on them. IMO one can break a speed limit made by a committee with little experience of road matters, as only you will know your car, your driving ability and the conditions on the day.

Speeding however has become such a political scapegoat that its drawig attention and resources from the real killers on our roads. Drink driving. Inattentive drivers. BAD driving. Yes, going too fast means you are a bad driver, but breaking the speed limit does not always mean you are going too fast!

As far as I am concerned once my actions effect no one else on the road and I remain aware, mannerly and constantly adjust my speed to changing conditions, I do not pose a danger. I feel the same way towards other drivers and hope that someday common sense will lead the road safety debate to where it should be, on driver training and education, infrasturcture improvement and the proper visiblilty of police on our roads.

Just my 2 cents.

View Profile

Those of you who watched Top Gear last week are probably already aware, but i thought it relevant to this discussion.

Swindon council could stop paying for speed cameras because it says they might not be the best way to make roads safer.
Its leader, Roderick Bluh, said cash from fines goes to central government and there could be better ways to cut the number of accidents on roads.
"We believe having done a lot of research - or my colleague in particular - that the evidence suggests, the government's own statistics suggest, that speed cameras might not be the most effective way to reduce accidents."
"They [speed cameras] are being used as a cash cow. I do take exception to the positioning of some mobile speed cameras. They are designed to raise revenue."
BBC NEWS

eringobragh

astraboy wrote: »

The problem with these speed checks, and peoples opposing views on them, is that one side believes the laws regarding speed limits, the placing, formation and use of speed limits, and the application of the law, is infallaible. I think most, if not all reasonable minded people would agree that they are not. Speed limits and their enforcement are curtailed and directed wrongly often due to political pressue. Hence limits too low for high standards of roads, and speed checks in areas of large straight roads with low accident rates.

Skimmed becasue of Long quote

Just my 2 cents.

Here Here!!! The UK adopted a silly start to the camera roll outs and now the majority of cams are on residential / high accident spots NOT SAFE Motorways.

Eru

In relation to which method is the best I dont think one is vastly superior than another.

Fixed cameras slow people down at that area therefore reducing accidents in that area only but still means a safe enough stretch of road.

Gatso moving around will reduce some peoples speed in various areas depending on where its positioned but again, means a safe area for the duration of its stay.

However, lets be honest about this. There are speed demons and plain unsafe drivers on our roads that simple speed, weave, tailgate and use the hard shoulder to overtake. Sending fines to them may not have an immediate effect on their driving at the time of their fine however the speeding tickets add up resulting in either the person finally slowing down and driving safely or being taken off the road. Both make the roads a safer place for other drivers.

Let me tell a story. the road I live on ends in 2 cul de sacs side by side. Kids play on the street as kids do everywhere. Theres a few little idiots who speed around the place skidding around corners.

I bit my tongue for a while (not ****ting on your own doorstep) but at the end of the day I have a child that plays on that street and a conscience so I had two choices. I could curse the guy that eventually kills my child or one of his friends or I could take the second option which I did. Stopped these guys, showed my badge and let them know that they would be getting tickets and summoned to court for every offence I saw through my front window.

So they could either spend thousands in fines and extra insurance as the points piled up or they could cop on and drive sensible. Was I power hungry or have I made the road safer?

Steve

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Fixed cameras slow people down at that area therefore reducing accidents in that area only but still means a safe enough stretch of road.

With the greatest of respect Karlito, they only slow people down if they're visible. If they're hidden then nothing is achieved for safety on that stretch.
As you said, you went and showed your badge to the muppets on your road - I am sure that frightened them into behaving - would it have had the same effect if you had just sent them a fine a month later?

Bee

Local people in local areas are aware of the most dangerous spots where where traffic law enforcement is needed for all road users.

Cash cameras do nothing to reduce road fatalities and to enforce correct road user behaviour.

As the Gardai continue to fail to produce an adequate service in traffic law enforcement and resort to hiding behind bushes, their control must be placed into the hands of the public.

I would suggest that the control of these public servants must be put into the hands of the local community where they can be instructed on where and how they enforce traffic law with appropriate non-revenuing generate targets to meet as in a reduction of fatalities and road accidents.

The Gardai need to be re-educated to understand that they operate on behalf of the public and not in their current behaviour of an old boys club

astraboy

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

In relation to which method is the best I dont think one is vastly superior than another.

Fixed cameras slow people down at that area therefore reducing accidents in that area only but still means a safe enough stretch of road.

Gatso moving around will reduce some peoples speed in various areas depending on where its positioned but again, means a safe area for the duration of its stay.

However, lets be honest about this. There are speed demons and plain unsafe drivers on our roads that simple speed, weave, tailgate and use the hard shoulder to overtake. Sending fines to them may not have an immediate effect on their driving at the time of their fine however the speeding tickets add up resulting in either the person finally slowing down and driving safely or being taken off the road. Both make the roads a safer place for other drivers.

Let me tell a story. the road I live on ends in 2 cul de sacs side by side. Kids play on the street as kids do everywhere. Theres a few little idiots who speed around the place skidding around corners.

I bit my tongue for a while (not ****ting on your own doorstep) but at the end of the day I have a child that plays on that street and a conscience so I had two choices. I could curse the guy that eventually kills my child or one of his friends or I could take the second option which I did. Stopped these guys, showed my badge and let them know that they would be getting tickets and summoned to court for every offence I saw through my front window.

So they could either spend thousands in fines and extra insurance as the points piled up or they could cop on and drive sensible. Was I power hungry or have I made the road safer?

You did the right thing IMO, literally making the streets safer! However hidden cameras and the snakey tactics of hiding behind bushes/bridges/busstops does not make the road safer, VISIBLE policing does that. Visible police presence cops people on and slows them down, catching them doing 8kph over the limit and sending them a fine does not. Prevention is better then cure, by encouraging people to drive safer in general, rather then just fining them after breaking what may be a poorly applied speed limit, the roads would be safer.

I'm sure speed cameras would not have caught the guys tearing up your street, as many of their antics may have been excessive acceleration, or pulling handbrakes, but not actually breaking the limit. Again, another reason why fixed cameras in large numbers are a joke, they do NOT catch the actual dangerous drivers out there.

Cops on the streets and roads patroling is what will make the road safer(As you did).

@eringobragh, love the Sig! Keep it up.:D

Seth Brundle

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

In relation to which method is the best I dont think one is vastly superior than another.

There isn't anything to suggest that cameras come anywhere close to having the same effect as a manual checkpoint.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Fixed cameras slow people down at that area therefore reducing accidents in that area only but still means a safe enough stretch of road.

Based on what? Thats total crap!

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Gatso moving around will reduce some peoples speed in various areas depending on where its positioned but again, means a safe area for the duration of its stay.

You are just making this up. Neither a fixed camera nor a camera van will have any form of 'long term' effect. If seen, they force drivers to suddenly brake (strangely generally even drivers who know of their presence seem to suddenly brake) causing cars behind to suddenly brake. Being under the posted limit often has no bearing on the action - people still brake.
However, by and large, people increase their speed once they have passed the camera!
How is all of that safe?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

However, lets be honest about this. There are speed demons and plain unsafe drivers on our roads that simple speed, weave, tailgate and use the hard shoulder to overtake. Sending fines to them may not have an immediate effect on their driving at the time of their fine however the speeding tickets add up resulting in either the person finally slowing down and driving safely or being taken off the road. Both make the roads a safer place for other drivers.

This type of driver would not be caught by either a fixed or mobile Gatso!

The Muppet

the_syco wrote: »

You see sop, cop car, etc, you slow down. You speed, you get fined two weeks later.

You ignore fine, a few weeks later you receive summons to court, you turn up in court and say sorry Judge I never receeved the letter about the fine, judge says case dismissed and off you go with your clean licence. What a fantastic system to promote road safety.

the_syco wrote: »

I'm more for the "we're watching you" big brother style policing, rather than the "ha ha we saw you two weeks ago speeding" that the gatso vans are used for.

In the last few weeks I have encountered 3 speed checks all on Dual carriage ways and each time the guy with the camera was hiding behind something, making himself as invisible as possible.

I don't really have a problem with that but its totally at odds with what the commisioner has had to say in the links in the thread and I do believe that a high visibility campaign would be more beneficial than skulking behind ditches etc.

Eru

kbannon wrote: »

There isn't anything to suggest that cameras come anywhere close to having the same effect as a manual checkpoint.
Based on what? Thats total crap!

You are just making this up. Neither a fixed camera nor a camera van will have any form of 'long term' effect. If seen, they force drivers to suddenly brake (strangely generally even drivers who know of their presence seem to suddenly brake) causing cars behind to suddenly brake. Being under the posted limit often has no bearing on the action - people still brake.
However, by and large,

people increase their speed once they have passed the camera!

How is all of that safe?

This type of driver would not be caught by either a fixed or mobile Gatso!

Not sure where too start with you, could call you a name but I will be polite.

1. Cameras dont take up 2 tears of training or 2 of the 3000 Garda working in the entire country! they also pay for themselves as is proven by the amount of people claiming they are cash generators.

2. Erm, Unless the world is littered with idiots that have the mental capacity of goldfish having a speed camera fixed in a location DOES reduce peoples speeding in that area because most people, evidently not you, remember that the camera is there. That does not exist during checkpoints as people can not see into the future and predict if a checkpoint will exist on such and such a road tomorrow.

3. See point 2 again regarding long term effects. Most people, again not you evidently, have a memory thats sufficent to remember that the M50 has speed cameras on it and where.

4. Agreed, people do speed up again after the camera but my point concerning fixed cameras was that people do actually slow down in the first place. Maybe only for 200 or 300 metres but they still slow down. Therefore the camera works in that specific area.

5. How is letting people speed continiously safe?

6. Catching these drivers is not my objective, my objective is too stop them speeding on my road in the first place thereby protecting the children playing on said street. A camera would have the exact same effect as my little chat did. It would stop them speeding on my street. Its not changing their attitudes, Im not an idiot and perfectly aware that once they are away from my house they revert back to moron mode. However it would have a longterm effect if they continued to speed as speeding carries penalty points. " point or even4 maybe they wouldnt care but when the insurance starts getting expensive and a ban is closing in, well like I originally said, either they are taken off the road or they cop on. Both acceptable to me.



Too finish, I never stated that I had statistics too support my opinion. Its exactly that, an opinion based on enforcing road traffic law. seems funny that you attack my opinion as not being based on statistics but provide no statistics supporting your condemnation of me. Hello Mr kettle.

In relation to other comments. First of may I suggest thats its drivers and not Gardai that are too blame for the amount of carnage on our roads to begin with. Like every crime, its the criminal and not the police that should be held accountable for the crime itself. theres also no statistics kept showing how many crimes, deaths or crashes did NOT occur as a result of early Garda intervention.

Also, 3000 Gardai at any gievn time is not a lot for a country containing in excess of 5 million people. Howe many Gardai should be sent out to perform checkpoints? remember that many areas only have enough Gardai to put out 1 car with 2 Gardai in it. If that car is doing a checkpoint who is patrolling? Responding to calls? Combatting the thousands of other crimes being commited?

As for Gardai being broken down and put in the hands of the communities. well thats sounds fine in theory but should we become political? Canvass, make false promises and only deal with things that the Super promised at the last election? Should we have Gardai that are afraid to confront certain people because these people hold power in the area? Be working on the basis of upcoming elections? And thats not even considering that there are areas on this country that would have a significent number of criminals living in them. Can we honestly say that pressure would not be put on people to vote out the local Gardai by criminals? their associates, little speed racers, etc.

We can say it wouldnt happen but it happens a lot where the police are elected. Local town sheriffs in the US for example, many stories of them turning a blind eye because it meant they would not be elected otherwise.

Our system means Gardai have nothing to fear from doing their jobs honestly and are not hindered from going after people regardless of who. Look back to the 80s and you can see that policing and politics dont mix.