wimmins

Pen1987

Wibbs wrote: »

I don't think Crumble Froo's trying to pick up women though.

I know, hes just trying to hold a conversation, its almost the same thing sure. Nearly all mixed conversation between two strangers involves some form of 'chatting up', chatting to is the same thing IMHO. Were all hardwired to judge all unknown people of the opposite sex as a potential partner. I can see where youre coming from though.

metaoblivia

It's always been really hard for me to find girl friends. A lot of girls are just very insecure, and they take it out on the girls around them. This past week, I've been going out with some girls I know from work (but we don't work together). It's been really nice. It's so hard to find good girl friends that you can just go out and have fun with.
And I'm a girly girl to an extent - I look the part, for sure. But there's only so much about nails, hair, fashion and celebs that you can talk about. I also really love sports and guy movies (can't stand romantic comedies). It's really important to connect with your friends on a deeper level.

Wibbs

Pen1987 wrote: »

I know, hes just trying to hold a conversation, its almost the same thing sure. Nearly all mixed conversation between two strangers involves some form of 'chatting up', chatting to is the same thing IMHO. Were all hardwired to judge all unknown people of the opposite sex as a potential partner. I can see where youre coming from though.

Crumble Froo's not a he. She's a woman, so.....:D

bennyblanco

bennyblanco wrote: »

I read in New Scientist there the other week that this is completely true

I knew I was an expert on women! Now if someone could just explain that to them...

rain on

I have a pretty even mix of male and female friends at the moment, and to be honest I often prefer hanging out with the ladies because there's no sexual tension to worry about. I haven't really experienced the bitchiness and unpleasantness in women that other Crumble Froo et al are talking about since I was in my mid-teens.. I think it's because I have no time for that sort of carry-on, the women I "attract" (for want of a better word) are of a similar disposition. I don't really have trouble making new female friends either, despite not being much of stereotypical girly girl -- makeup and clothes and what not are fun but I need more cerebral occupations than them in my life, and so do my lady friends.

I don't know if this is unusual or not but some of my best female friends became my friends through me knowing their boyfriends.. in one case her boyfriend at the time was my ex. It's happened a couple of times now that I've been acquaintances or friends with a guy and when I've been introduced to his girlfriend we've ended up becoming much closer friends than me and the guy in question were. My male friends just have great taste in ladies :cool:

cuckoo

I'm not too bothered about a potential friend's/group of people/ranomder's gender - it's the stupid people in this world that get to me. So very many - everywhere!

Clare Bear

It's funny, all through college I had mainly male friends due to my course and living with guys....some of us drifted, mainly the boys that got girlfriends actually....now I probably have more girl friends than guys...when it comes down to it I think my girl friends would be more loyal than my boy friends...if I have any problems I'd go straight to them and you can't beat a good girlie chat.

In saying that though I'd find it way easier to chat to guys than girls I don't know....unless they're girls like me who just don't give a crap....I can't stand bitchy, snobby, up their own arse kind of girls so I choose not to mix in those circles...unfortunately I get stuck with a few of them from time to time but you'll always meet arseholes along the way.

jellie

i have more close female friends than male friends. these are girls ive known since i was 11. i have male friends, but theyre not the people id pour my heart out to if i was upset, theyre the people i socialise with.

in terms of company, it can be easier with men. i was the only girl in my masters class & everyone just got along grand, included everyone, etc. - we were a very small class. if it had been all girls i cant see that it would have gone that way, probably loads of little subgroups & bitchiness.

ive only ever been close to 2 men, 1 was an ex, and the other was a guy from college (purely friendship). ive lost touch with the guy from college now & i kind of miss having the male friendship. it was totally different to female friendship. id be able to talk to him about the same stuff as the girls, eg. breaking up with the bf, but hed have a different way of cheering me up than the girls would, i cant even explain the difference.

i dont think im making much sense here im too tired. i get on with both men & women. but the girls im close with are girls ive known for years, whereas anyone ive gotten close to when im older has been male, i havent made any good female friends in a long time.

Crumble Froo

Thaedydal wrote: »

Look there are non girlie females out there, there are a lot more of us then we tend to think and yes crumble foo I have been there on a few nights out but I found that talking about giving birth in detail kills thier inane conversations and they then think I am werid and give me a wide berth but I only tend to resort to that after I have asked my 13 questions of intrest

haha, after a few failed attempts at conversation, i just poured the whole contents of my hipflask (*shiftyeyes*) into the one drink, and drank up. i dont think i have anything that could quite compare to birthgiving as a way to shut people up.

rain on wrote: »

I have a pretty even mix of male and female friends at the moment, and to be honest I often prefer hanging out with the ladies because there's no sexual tension to worry about. I haven't really experienced the bitchiness and unpleasantness in women that other Crumble Froo et al are talking about since I was in my mid-teens.. I think it's because I have no time for that sort of carry-on, the women I "attract" (for want of a better word) are of a similar disposition. I don't really have trouble making new female friends either, despite not being much of stereotypical girly girl -- makeup and clothes and what not are fun but I need more cerebral occupations than them in my life, and so do my lady friends.

personally, some of my closest friends are girls. one hangs around mostly with girls, and i spent most of secondary school hating them. just had a habit of making me feel like complete ****, those bitchy comments, blatant put downs, etc. the rest of my girl mates (i tend to be mates with people on an individual basis, rather than groups) tend to get on better with guys too.

though what you said about it not being a problem since your mid teens... the girl that prompted me to start this thread is in her 30s. nuff said, really.

Wibbs

Crumble Froo wrote: »

though what you said about it not being a problem since your mid teens... the girl that prompted me to start this thread is in her 30s. nuff said, really.

People do calm down a lot when they hit their 30's, or at least they cover up their crap better maybe. That social competition bit gets channeled elsewhere too. If you've ever been to a mixed dinner party of 30 something women in married - big lease on a car they can't afford - 2.2 children(who are always gifted)suburbia, you'll know what I mean. Men do it too, but not nearly to the same degree.

Crumble Froo

Wibbs wrote: »

People do calm down a lot when they hit their 30's, or at least they cover up their crap better maybe. That social competition bit gets channeled elsewhere too. If you've ever been to a mixed dinner party of 30 something women in married - big lease on a car they can't afford - 2.2 children(who are always gifted)suburbia, you'll know what I mean. Men do it too, but not nearly to the same degree.

my mam had 6 sisters... so yep, im quite familiar with the scenario...

still though,the chick i met the other night, i knew through a male friend, who goes way back with my partner, hence how i know him. i've met some of his female friends a few times before, and we've always quite got along. he's going through a bad patch, so the night was about making sure he wasnt sitting at home on his own, hardly a competitive situation, but how and ever. ill be actively avoiding going out with him if she's there in future, though, i get nervey enough meeting new people as it is, without adding all that horrible horrible tension into it.

Dragan

Wibbs wrote: »

I've got a few bloody good women mates and as a guy I don't see this so much, unless there are other women around. Then with a lot of women all bets are off. IMHO women are much more competitive with each other than men are with each other. It's also on more levels.

I would disagree, i think women just need to be competitive with each other in different area's where "domination" cannot be acheived as quickly as males.

We are still pretty primative at times.

Jules

I would find myself being so much less confident around women. Always looking and pointing and making comments and judging people. Guys are just more, well for the most part, laid back and don't give a crap about material things or physical apperance. I have four close female friends and i would say two of them, well one of them is a total girlie girl, but she never passes comment or judgement and apperciates me for who i am. One is a girlie girl but not as much as the first, doesn't have to wear make up all the time and loves her trackie bots as much as i do! One it a total fruit loop and likes to do what ever the hell she likes and has a mouth like a gutter. The last is totally into computers, guns, gaming and cars so i find a little bit of myself in all of them, i have a good balance of female friends but the majority of mates are guys... there is just no bull****!

fits

Gosh I dunno. I really value my female friends (and my sisters). I was just away at the weekend there with one of my old friends and 8 other girls and I had such a great time. There was none of this competitive cr4p a lot of you speak of. It was just really comfortable. That said, in some situations I do feel the competition and find myself drawn in and I hate it. But its very rare in the circles I move in.

This is totally cheesy but feck it I think its appropriate.

SISTERS...

A young woman sat on a sofa on a hot humid day, drinking iced tea

and visiting with her Mother. As

they talked about life, marriage, the

responsibilities of life and the obligations of

adulthood, the mother clinked the ice cubes in her

glass thoughtfully and turned a clear, sober glance

upon her daughter

'Don't forget your Sisters,' she advised, swirling

the tea leaves to the bottom of her glass. 'They'll

be more important as you get older. No matter how

much you love your husband, no matter how much you

love the children you may have, you are still going

to need Sisters. Remember to go places with them now

and then; do things with them.'

'Remember that 'Sisters' means ALL the women...

your girlfriends, your daughters, and all your other

women relatives too. 'You'll need other women. Women

always do.'

What a funny piece of advice!' the young woman

thought. Haven't I just gotten married?

Haven't I just joined the couple-world? I'm now a

married woman, for goodness sake! A grownup! Surely

my husband and the family we may start will be all I

need to make my life worthwhile!'

But she listened to her Mother. She kept contact

with her Sisters and made more women friends each

year. As the years tumbled by, one after another,

she gradually came to understand that her Mom really

knew what she was talking about. As time and nature

work their changes and their mysteries upon a woman,

Sisters are the mainstays of her life.

After more than 50 years of living in this world,

here is what I've learned:

THIS SAYS IT ALL:

Time passes.

Life happens.

Distance separates.

Children grow up.

Jobs come and go.

Love waxes and wanes.

Men don't do what they're supposed to do.

Hearts break.

Parents die.

Colleagues forget favours.

Careers end.

BUT...........

Sisters are there,

no matter how much time and how

many miles are

between you. A girl friend is never farther away

than needing her can reach.

When you have to walk that lonesome valley and you

have to walk it by yourself, the women in your life

will be on the valley's rim, cheering you on,

praying for you, pulling for you, intervening on

your behalf, and waiting with open arms at the

valley's end.

Sometimes, they will even break the rules and walk

beside you.....Or come in and carry you out.

Girlfriends, daughters, granddaughters,

daughters-in-law, sisters, sisters-in-law, Mothers,

Grandmothers, aunts, nieces, cousins, and extended

family, all bless our life!

The world wouldn't be the same without women, and

neither would I. When we began this adventure called

womanhood, we had no idea of the incredible joys or

sorrows that lay ahead. Nor did we know how much we

would need each other.

Every day, we need each other still.

cuckoo

Dragan wrote: »

I would disagree, i think women just need to be competitive with each other in different area's where "domination" cannot be acheived as quickly as males.

We are still pretty primative at times.

Interestingly, i was reading the other day about how womens prisons in the US are sometimes more violent than mens prisons - wardens believe it's because the men have established hierarcies, with clearly understood rules of advancement. Amongst the women it's all more fluid, and thus turbulent.

Wibbs threw up the horrifying spectre of the dinner party, and I have experienced the jostling for status that such events consist of. The men start off with 'what d'you do? drive? what size are your gf's breasts? golf handicap?' and pretty quickly seem to have themselves arranged in order of rank, then they relax. The top ranking man gets listened to with respect by the others, who lap around his feet like puppies looking for crumbs of acknowledgement.

Meanwhile, the women are skitting around it. Shoes, handbags and jewellery are discussed. Careers glanced at. The children, if there are any, are spoken of proudly. Naturally, 100% of the offspring of those at the event are in the top 5% academically. If there's a lot of mothers there, the conversation will halt at the sticky issue of "to immunise, or not to immunise, that is the question....". Some of the men folk (doctors, scientists, men-in-white-coats) will be called away from talks of golf to give their opinion on this. If there is a woman there who herself is qualified and experienced, the other women will still prefer to listen to the man-of-science's opinion.

The status jostling of the women is very complicated, woman X may win on the handbag stakes, but then she gets trumped in the engagement ring size test by woman Y. Y is then trampled to the ground by Z in the 'supermummy' competition (z's children play 3 instruments, and are attending an organic, bilingual spanish/irish playschool). The women can never relax for the whole evening, it's continual back and forth competition.

Things get a little nasty over the deserts as the relative merits of different diets are mentioned, and woman A has a momentary triumph when she states she doesn't have to worry about what she eats as she goes to the gym 5 times a week. As she relishes the silence that follows that she gets knocked back down again by one of the mothers, "well, of course, you have time to do that --- as you have no children".

As the coffee is poured the final battle is fought. Forget the poppy strewn fields of WW1, these women have dug into their trenches and are facing off for real war - working outside the home mothers vs stay at home mothers. The childless don't get to play in this one, they're relegated to the sidelines. The women-without-men ("honestly, who let the single woman in?") act as a unifying force however, as they don their UN blue helmet and dare to utter an opinion, only to face the wrath of all the mothers as with a laugh a mother casually says "oh, what would you know..." The men remain oblivious as the medic evac helicopter whisks the mortally wounded single woman away.

AAAAARRRGGGHH!

But....while women can be nasty to each other, and men brutish to each other too, i'm more of an observer. I had an epiphany a few years ago, when i realised that nobody else could ever be as tough on me as i am on myself, so while i'll note and remember things other people say, i'm not too overly bothered.

Wibbs

^^

The Sweeper

The status jostling among women is a reflection of how they feel about themselves.

I like myself. Therefore I never ignore, trump, bitch at, snipe at or compete with women I have just met.

However, because I like myself, I often find women who don't like themselves much violently react to my presence and are able to announce, within a day or two, that they hate me and I'm a bitch.

I'm not the prettiest in the room, but I don't care.
I'm not the richest in the room, but I don't care.
I'm certainly not the thinnest in the room, but I don't care.
I don't have the biggest tits in the room, but I don't care.
I don't have the most expensive shoe-handbag combo in the room, but I don't care.
I don't have any children, but I don't care.
I don't have the greatest career job in the world, but I don't care.

I usually find that bitches have a rather shallow existance, and frankly I find them tiresome and I'd far rather be me.

Then again that's probably why they hate me.

b3t4

MAJD post, as always, is a great one.

There are two groups of women I dislike

1. The extreme girly-girly ones where everything is pink and inane.
2. The extreme I'm so much better than group 1 types as they don’t like pink and inane things.

In my opinion both groups are as bad as each other. Group 1 and 2 will bitch and moan about each other. Each group is equally as good at excluding the other and dismissing them out of hand.

I used to sit somewhat in group 2 but thankfully I grew out of that. I now know that each group has something to offer me so I dabble on both sides

My circle of friends is now predominantly female. My female friends would sit outside the above groups and are of the non-judgemental variety. Some of my female friends lean more towards group 1 while others lean more towards group 2. The great thing is that they all get on together. That said it took me a long time to find these friends and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that it took me a long time to realise than I'm a fabulous person (in my own humble opinion haha )

A.

Dudess

I hate the way if you're an opinionated female, that means you're a bitch.

Peared

I think sometimes you gotta just accept that you're not somebodys cup of tea.

Maybe the reason they dont like you (the general 'you') isn't because they are jealous or insecure or girlie or threatened.

Maybe they just don't like you.

That's allowed surely.

Peared

Peared wrote: »

Maybe they just don't like you.

That's allowed surely.

Yes but still it is incredibly annoying when people treat you by how they expect you are. Rather than get to know you.

Dudess

Peared wrote: »

I think sometimes you gotta just accept that you're not somebodys cup of tea.

Maybe the reason they dont like you (the general 'you') isn't because they are jealous or insecure or girlie or threatened.

Maybe they just don't like you.

That's allowed surely.

I wouldn't give a sh1t about someone like that not liking me - in fact that's the way I'd prefer it - however, what I object to is being considered or called a bitch on the basis of a summing-up by someone who doesn't even know me and has no reason to come to such a conclusion other than me being opinionated.

I can relate to what Minesajackdaniels said.

Oh, being a tease and even a slut cuz I get on with lads - that's a classic one.

The Sweeper

I'd be exhausted if I objected to what people consider inside their own heads. That's like saying "I don't care what peopel think of me, but I care what people think of me."

It's one of the advantages of age. As you advance, you care less.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

I hate the way if you're an opinionated female, that means you're a bitch.

To be honest I think alot of it has to do with delivery.

Women who are opinionated seem to force their opinions on others more than men who would share equally strongly held opinions. I am fully aware that this sounds sexist but it is certainly my opinion.

This may have to do with women wishing to distinguish themselves from their social equals and men looking to appeal to the common norm amongst their peer group. Labov conducted a study into language shifts in New York in the 1970's that came to this conclusion and I think women do this in other ways also. "Girly girls" tend to do this through a perpetual fashion contest, opinionated women through a need to constantly inform others of said opinions.

I am not saying all opinionated women are bitches by any means. Just that the perception that they are bitches might come by the manner in which they choose to deliver those opinions to the people around them.

I am certain male insecurities may be a contributing factor but as a possessor of an argumentative streak as long as your arm I have never held issue with someone willing to go 10 rounds on religion, legal issues etc.

Dudess

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I'd be exhausted if I objected to what people consider inside their own heads. That's like saying "I don't care what peopel think of me, but I care what people think of me."

Not quite. If they want to dislike me, sweet. They can dislike me all they want, once they leave it at that.
However if it means that they're gonna:

trump, bitch at, snipe at or compete with

and

violently react to my presence and are able to announce, within a day or two, that they hate me and I'm a bitch.

... well while it's best to ignore them, it's also fair enough to point out on a one-off basis, like this thread, that it's unacceptable.

But you're right, you do care less as you grow older - that's why I've loved being the age I am since about 27.

dfx-

Dudess wrote: »

I hate the way if you're an opinionated female, that means you're a bitch.

Perhaps because someone opinionated is much more likely to start off a bitch-fest because they're unable to shut up when they probably should.

MysticFaye

I have to say, my group of friends has alway been males. I've only ever had 2 female best friends in my life, one in primary school, the other in college. The one in primary school didn't last though as her family ended up moving away and one of my female 'friends' managed to get in contact with her, however refused to give me the details despite saying she would previously. So I never got to talk to my best friend after that.

My second female best friend and I still keep in touch however. The thing is, she is different to me. I'm quite out-going, speak my mind, try to keep everyone in the convo and keep a convo going, whereas she was really shy, would rather follow than lead, however she did giggle at everything and would always listen.

I've never really gotten along with girls, not because I haven't tried, but because they used to exclude and isolate me as I was different to them. I wasn't all about looks, shopping, sofistication. I was more about being open, saying what I thought, a bit of rough and tumble, fart/burping competitions etc.

I think I find it easier to be friends with guys because they're alot less judgemental so to speak. Most guys are very individual and do what they want and the other guys know that, whereas I've always felt women want you to be a certain way to fit in. Want you to be a sheep and follow the crowd kind of thing. That may not be true, and probably isn't for alot of women out there, but it is what I have seen and experienced through my life so far.

I do want more female friends, especially now that I live in Ireland, I want to try and make more/new friends (as I only know 2 people here >.<) especially female friends. I feel I've missed out on the closeness that girlfriends have that you can't really share with guys, as there are certain conversations that no matter how willing they are to talk and listen about it, will never understand completely as they'll never go through it being a woman only thing.

Dudess

dfx- wrote: »

Perhaps because someone opinionated is much more likely to start off a bitch-fest because they're unable to shut up when they probably should.

Yeah... or maybe people simply have a problem with people who have their own mind and aren't sheep-like.

Crumble Froo

there's still a line though... between agreeing to disagree, changing hte subject for the sake of peace, or going full on arguing different points of view. i know i certainly wouldnt do the latter with anyone i'd just met.

Dudess

Neither would I - not by a long shot.