Power (bhp) games - wheres it all going to end?

Andrewf20

I read an article recently from a magazine, and it mentioned how the M3 has more than doubled its power from 200bhp (E30) to 420bhp (E92). Are things getting out of hand? There are many other generations of cars out there in the same boat. I know cars are getting heavier but there seems to be no end to this ever increase in power. The M5 has swelled from 286bhp in the 1980's to 507bhp today. Are we ever happy enough, or is it true that power corrupts, so that no matter what, you will always want more in future.

I went thru a phase of this myself, but thankfully I have become relatively happy enough with the modest power that I have.

How much of driving pleasure comes from a 0-60 rip at the lights versus a good blast down the back roads where handling plays more of a role, rather than out right power.

What are peoples thoughts on this one.

Neilw

I agree with your statement about handling vs power, I now have a 210bhp hatch back, it's fairly quick but weighs over 1300kg so you can notice the weight affecting the handling.
I had a 106gti years ago, 120bhp and around 975kg and this car was amazing on back roads, so nimble and light. I wouldn't like to be in a crash in one tho.

Cars are getting heavier as more safety systems are added, airbags, crumple zones also drivers want more refinement, more toys and this all adds weight.
Renault seem to lead the way in making light weight models such as the clio cup, twingo cup and new megane R26.R

Neil.

Seth Brundle

The gap between going from ~200bhp to ~400bhp was over 20 years. However, recently we have seen a war between BMW / Merc / Audi etc to reach max power. In the supercar and hypercar segments the war is probably more severe.
However, if you look at the majority of cars, they haven't moved that far from where they were 10 or 20 years ago!

JHMEG

The Japanese had the 280bhp "limit" for the purpose of avoiding power wars. (They had a similar agreement for motorbikes as a result of an actual power/speed war)

Now that they have dropped the limit power has doubled over night, eg GTR, NSX, Supra/LF-A.

E92

The "power wars" are pretty much at an end. The Germans are concentrating on making their next generation of performance saloons more economical than the current ones but with no loss in performance.

The next M5 as we know is going back to a 4.4 V8, making it the smallest engined M5 since the E34, and it will be the first M car to have turbos, as well as being the first hybrid M car.

Similarly the new Audi S4 actually will have less power than the old one, at 333 bhp rather than 344 bhp.

The S4 is losing a 4.2 V8 in favour of a supercharged 3.0 V6.

I really don't know if 500 bhp really is a whole pile better than say 350 bhp.

It's not like you're ever going to use that available performance anyway IMO. That makes me glad that these power wars are coming to an end.

With ever increasing environmental pressures, the days of cars increasing their power as fast as they were had to come to a halt sooner rather than later.

ShadowHearth

hmmm in my opinion technologys going up very fast, so why not to add more power if we can.

Btw check around all normal cars dont have such difference. Ofc there is demand for high performance cars, so here you go. They give you bhp monsters. There were no such huge demand in such cars before. Look at driving culture now, all moding, tuning, street racing legend. That what forces car developers make such new cars. they even fit bodykits and ather third party stuff on theyr brand new cars!

And thing is, not alot of people drives those...

Henry Ford III

Golf GTI is a good example.

1976 - Mk I 1.6 8v. 110bhp. Simple, light, and zippy.

2008 - Mk V 2.0 16v turbo. 200bhp. A lot bigger, heavier, safer, quicker, and still decent economy if driven with restraint.

I've no issue with a bit of power for overtaking. Quick cars can stll be relatively green. I thought we were nearing the end of the power game for fwd cars, but then the 300bhp Focus RS was announced.

JHMEG

Henry Ford III wrote: »

1976 - Mk I 1.6 8v. 110bhp. Simple, light, and zippy.

zippy is relative. It was actually pretty slow.

Henry Ford III

JHMEG wrote: »

zippy is relative. It was actually pretty slow.

Au contraire. In 1976 it was a revelation. Fwd. Fuel injection.

I still prefer my Escort MkII RS2000 however. Proper car

pburns

It seems that like a lot of things in life the more you have, the more you want. The German power war was preposterous - BMW, Audi and Mercedes having a corporate pissing competition. Magazines and shows like Top Gear hype this up and it becomes more about bragging rights than anything else - for both the manufacturers and prospective owners.

A modern interpretation of the original M3 (4 cylinder AFAIK) and M5 (straight 6) would probably be unacceptable at this stage. But a 6 cylinder M3 and a V8-powered M5 seem like a move in the right direction to me. If the brilliant engineers at BMW divert some of their time to looking into ways to reduce weight just a little it would make up for any absolute power losses, improve handling and economy/CO2. So everyones a winner...

Sandwich

kbannon wrote: »

However, if you look at the majority of cars, they haven't moved that far from where they were 10 or 20 years ago!

Would have guessed the opposite kb but havent studied any figures particularly. I would have gone for approx 25% increase for the majority of normal motors (excluding M3s etc). Was 80-90ish bhp not the basic engine in your average Sierra/Vectra of the time? Now more like 110-120. 70 was typical for a mid range hatchback. Now more like 90-100. Even more upmarket stuff, say BMW 520 from 140ish to 180ish.

magick

also with the current price of fuel i think petrol guzzling cars are going to take a major hit in terms of sales.

Seth Brundle

Sandwich wrote: »

Would have guessed the opposite kb but havent studied any figures particularly. I would have gone for approx 25% increase for the majority of normal motors (excluding M3s etc). Was 80-90ish bhp not the basic engine in your average Sierra/Vectra of the time? Now more like 110-120. 70 was typical for a mid range hatchback. Now more like 90-100. Even more upmarket stuff, say BMW 520 from 140ish to 180ish.

Sorry - I had meant power to weight rather than just straight power.

Andrewf20

I reckon around 160bhp / ton is the most id ever really want from a car. Ive driven big power cars in the past (250bhp+), and they certainly do have a wow factor on acceleration but I find its relatively short lived. Its as if you get used to its speed.

In the past I got a chance to sit as a passenger in the bros E30 318is as well as an E46 M3 at Mondello, and I have to say that the E30 gave the M3 a run for its money on fun factor, despite the M3 demolishing it ultimetly performance wise.

unkel

pburns wrote: »

It seems that like a lot of things in life the more you have, the more you want

It's called progress. It's called evolution. Fair play to anybody happy with their 90 bhp turbo diesel, but some of us want / need / aspire to real power

pburns wrote: »

The German power war was preposterous

It might look that way with the jump from the >400BHP to nearly 600bhp range. Nothing revolutionary though...

My 22 year old classic car produces 310bhp. Current hot hatches would not nearly be in the same league. And almost all of them suffer from FWD (impotence) too

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

My 22 year old classic car produces 310bhp.

Produced. It'd be well down by now, prob below 200bhp. Someone like Westward in Enfield can dyno it for you for €50. Mightn't be that bad.

EDIT: think for RWD it was €80 they were charging.

peasant

The most fun I ever had on the roads was in my little 1000 cc Mini. Even though it wasn't fast in relative terms, it certainly felt it, especially through corners.

The acceleration of the old Saab 900 turbo was fantastic ...but it only really worked on a straight. It would give you squirts of fun, whereas the Mini just was a laugh whatever you did ...with the grand total of 44 bhp.

Whether your car has 300 bhp or 600 bhp is sort of immaterial for normal road driving ...either way it's way too fast for you to realise its potential legally.

Bragging rights is all you get out of it, really.

pburns

unkel wrote: »

It's called progress. It's called evolution. Fair play to anybody happy with their 90 bhp turbo diesel, but some of us want / need / aspire to real power

It might look that way with the jump from the >400BHP to nearly 600bhp range. Nothing revolutionary though...

My 22 year old classic car produces 310bhp. Current hot hatches would not nearly be in the same league. And almost all of them suffer from FWD (impotence) too

Pah...just making cars bigger, fatter, faster and thirstier is hardly 'progress'. It's just a by-product of cheap fuel thoughout the 90s and early noughties when manufacturers became complacent and resorted to lazy gluttony - more speed, more weight, more power...

Like I said, pissing competition.

I think most people with even a slight interest in driving will want something better than a 90bhp diesel. Even in Ireland. But 150-220bhp will pull you along fairly nicely in most mid-size cars.
What was it Colin Chapman said? Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere.

peasant wrote: »

The most fun I ever had on the roads was in my little 1000 cc Mini. Even though it wasn't fast in relative terms, it certainly felt it, especially through corners.

The acceleration of the old Saab 900 turbo was fantastic ...but it only really worked on a straight. It would give you squirts of fun, whereas the Mini just was a laugh whatever you did ...with the grand total of 44 bhp.

Whether your car has 300 bhp or 600 bhp is sort of immaterial for normal road driving ...either way it's way too fast for you to realise its potential legally.

Bragging rights is all you get out of it, really.

Spot on really...

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

Produced. It'd be well down by now, prob below 200bhp

LOL, you watch too much top gear. It's a relatively modern 80s Porsche, not a dodgy neglected Italian 70s once-upon-a-supercar

JHMEG wrote: »

Someone like Westward in Enfield can dyno it for you for €50. Mightn't be that bad.

EDIT: think for RWD it was €80 they were charging.

Right, wanna put your money where your mouth is? Let's go to that place and if my car dynos at less than 200BHP, I'll pay the bill. I'll also donate €100 to a charity of your choice. Otherwise, you'll pay the bill. Is that fair?

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

LOL, you watch too much top gear. It's a relatively modern 80s Porsche, not a dodgy neglected Italian 70s once-upon-a-supercar



Right, wanna put your money where your mouth is? Let's go to that place and if my car dynos at less than 200BHP, I'll pay the bill. I'll also donate €100 to a charity of your choice. Otherwise, you'll pay the bill. Is that fair?

Not interested in any of that. Point is you said you car produces 310bhp, which clearly by now it doesn't, and may not even be remotely close. Borrow an accelerometer and see how far off the 0-60 time is now from where it's supposed to be. Being an automatic there's little scope for variances due to driver gear changes, which is the biggest variable in drag racing.

vectra

Andrewf20 wrote: »

is it true that power corrupts, so that no matter what, you will always want more in future.

YES.
Just think "Bertie"

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

Not interested in any of that.

Afraid you'd be proven wrong?

What if I make it a €1000 donation to charity if you are right?

My car is 22 years old. Back then it held the official world speed record for production cars, but thankfully things move on

A bog standard 2008 Golf GTI would nearly be as fast now in a 0-100km/h contest, although because the limited power and FWD, it would not come close in a race and the top speed of the Golf would be relatively low

IrishRover

I think this engine power loss over the years notion is a bit of a myth as well. I got one of mine that is 14 years old and in standard condition rolling roaded at Westward and the power was exactly what the factory figures were.

Your Porsche isn't by any chance a cream coloured English A-reg is it Unkel?

Steve

unkel wrote: »

Afraid you'd be proven wrong?

What if I make it a €1000 donation to charity if you are right?

My car is 22 years old. Back then it held the official world speed record for production cars, but thankfully things move on

A bog standard 2008 Golf GTI would nearly be as fast now in a 0-100km/h contest, although because the limited power and FWD, it would not come close in a race and the top speed of the Golf would be relatively low

Can't wait to see where this goes - Can I come and be official judge?

/gets popcorn and beer

Andrewf20

The bros E30 318is is 18 years old with 170k miles on the clock and still shifts big time. Id say Unkels Porsche is the same, delivering smiles and sense of occasion by the bucket load.

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

Afraid you'd be proven wrong?

Afraid to go to Westward on your own and post the results back here? I don't have the time to dyno your car, but if you dyno it and it's producing 310bhp, I'll pay for the run.

EDIT: Re the 0-60, you're missing the point. It's your car vs itself when new. (I reckon the GTI would be quicker in all situations, certainly the figures suggest it, but it has nothing to do with your claims)

Seth Brundle

Just on the power loss issue, my old E30 320i which left the factory with 129 horses was dynoed in Enfield when it was badly in need of a service. It came out with 128bhp!
(I still get tingles from the sound of her!)

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

it's producing 310bhp, I'll pay for the run.

You said it would probably be below 200bhp, but I understand if you're backing out of that statement now

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

You said it would probably be below 200bhp, but I understand if you're backing out of that statement now

This is the car with an alusil block and no cylinder liners?

As I said, if what you claim is true, I'll pay for the dyno run.

Biro

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I reckon around 160bhp / ton is the most id ever really want from a car. Ive driven big power cars in the past (250bhp+), and they certainly do have a wow factor on acceleration but I find its relatively short lived. Its as if you get used to its speed.

In the past I got a chance to sit as a passenger in the bros E30 318is as well as an E46 M3 at Mondello, and I have to say that the E30 gave the M3 a run for its money on fun factor, despite the M3 demolishing it ultimetly performance wise.

True, there's a hell of a lot more to a fun machine than pace and power!
(However, the Aerial Atom provides both!! )
The E30 M3 would have a lot more character than the E46 I reckon. Haven't been in an E30, but I found the E46 a very competent and complete car, but lacked something. Lacked some kind of feel, or sense of occasion or something.

zero19

Ah sure i'm happy out with the pushbike...