Architect calulating costs

donstavros

When an architect calculates fees as a precentage of construction cost. Who calculates the construction cost?

1st phases of designing and submitting our planning permission was on fixed fee. Now, our architect has sent us a fee proposal for detail design, tendering documents and project management. She wants 12% of HER estimated construction cost of 300k.

From the begining, I told her our budget was less then 200k and now that things have gone dodgy in construction I reduced this budget more. The construction cost quoted to me last week, by a builder, was 150k.

The architect has me over a barrell because she designed the house we have planning permission for and now I need her to do the detailed design.

Can I reject this fee proposal from the architect? I didn't agree to anything yet but she knows I have no choice.

Why on earth should I pay a precentage of 300k when the actual cost will be 150kish?

sunnysoutheast

Well ifrom the reading of it t's just that at present, a proposal.

Both parties have executed the previous agreement, the architect has helped you obtain planning permission, you've settled the fees (I assume).

Unless you've signed anything else there is nothing to stop you getting somebody else to carry out the tasks you've outlined. The difficulties you'll face will likely be the practical ones of getting copies of planning drawings etc. and there may be some redrafting required.

Obviously no-one on an internet forum will have the detail so you may need to take legal advice.

Fees are normally based on the VAT-exclusive price, so you'll be paying 300000/1.135 * 12% = 31700 plus 21% VAT = 38k total. This seems high to me, unless you're building something truly bizarre.

I also wouldn't assume that building prices have gone down across the board, labour for certain basic trades yes. Materials have gone up a lot.

SSE

muffler

I think the 12% is like the wrong side of everest - steep

No6

Have you got a written & signed fee agreement (you should have) In this case you are in a contract with the architect. The % fee is based on the overall cost of the build, it seems to me give the difference between the two estimates there should be some negiotions between you, perhaps the architect is front loading the fee for cashflow (which they shouldn't) You should only be paying a % of the overall fee depending on what stage of the project you are at based on an estimated fee untill you have an actual contract figure where you can then recalculate the fee (downwards if you're right, upwards if she is!!) If you cannot resolve your problem and your architect is an RIAI architect please report them to the RIAI, 12% is a very high fee unless you are getting a bespoke design with a full service.

Mellor

Considering the PP was billed separate, the 12% is high to me also.
Talk to the Arch about where the 300k came from. Tel her 150k is the cntracter estimate

sinnerboy

donstavros wrote: »

When an architect calculates fees as a precentage of construction cost. Who calculates the construction cost?

1st phases of designing and submitting our planning permission was on fixed fee. Now, our architect has sent us a fee proposal for detail design, tendering documents and project management. She wants 12% of HER estimated construction cost of 300k.

From the begining, I told her our budget was less then 200k and now that things have gone dodgy in construction I reduced this budget more. The construction cost quoted to me last week, by a builder, was 150k.

The architect has me over a barrell because she designed the house we have planning permission for and now I need her to do the detailed design.

Can I reject this fee proposal from the architect? I didn't agree to anything yet but she knows I have no choice.

Why on earth should I pay a precentage of 300k when the actual cost will be 150kish?

OP can you please say
what part of the country you live in
what m2 of works are you talking about and
whether you are doing a new build or refurb + extend job

For budgeting purposes compare the architects advice against this

http://www.riai.ie/public/downloads/RIAI_cost_guidelines06.pdf

This is not a bad starting point .

I would be very careful about relying on a builders cost where -
- no technical / for construction information is prepared
- no PC sums are established ( i.e. what will spend on kitchen / floor finishes / M+E / external works )
- contractual terms including payments , retentions , defect liability are not agreed

Now perhaps this is covered - well and good so - if not the €150K may not be a reliable cost at all .

You are not over a barrel based on a design which may be interpreted technically as high - medium - or low specification

The RIAI used to publish a fee scale - they don't anymore . It , in the opinion of many , established a useful point of reference . I am reading a posting from a 1999 document now , £ir .

For construction cost varying between IR 175k - IR 500k fee scale amount was 12.99% . For services from concept to completion . Approx 1/3rd payable at planning . So on the face of it 12% from post planning to completion does seem high . But there may be a reason for that - ask your architect .

I am not defending any one's position such as your architects but I am tending to differ from the general thrust of the other posters -

You architect may be pulling the wool - but she might not be too . Try to get a second opinion from another architect . But one who has a good track record - compare like with like . And if there is not much in it stick with the current architect - if you can make a saving .... go for it having proporely terminated the current architect appointment

donstavros

we have got planning permission for a rebuild and extension, total of about 85m2. so not too large. We have paid our architect for all services up to now. I asked for a fee proposal for a detailed design for our builder and we got the mad percentage of her estimated construction cost of 300k.

Because things have gone a bit dodgy we don't want to borrow too much. So we've decided to cut costs on our project.

• we were thinking of a zinc roof but found out it was way too expensive now we choosing normal.

• we are putting in a cheap kitchen/bathrooms until we can afford better.

I have spoken to a builder who has done work for friends of ours and he said that his company would construct our house, excluding kitchen/bathroom and skylights for our new extension, for 140k + vat (13.5%).

surely this makes our archtects construction cost estimate look high. And more importantly if the architect fee, for the detail design, is based on percentage of construction cost then why go with a percentage of 300k. There is no way we will be spending 300k on renovations.

sinnerboy

Ok that equates to €3500k/m2 - no way . Ask her to reconcile that with RIAI link I posted earlier . And 8% of the build cost now is more than fair .

At 140k build cost is €1650/m2 which i,m guessing places you close to the M50 somewhere ?

It is in your best interests to retain a profesional to manage the build and certity upon completion - perhaps not the incumbent however

donstavros

yes. we are in DunLaoghaire - rathdown co council.

our site is awkward but we have been consulting with builders throughout planning. prices have definitley dropped for labour. Our architect has not taken this into account with her recent fee proposal.

my questions are:

1. if our budget is up to 150k, how can our architect base her fee on a percentage of an estimate that she suggested?
2. can i insist the the architect bases her percentage on our budget?
3. is it true that our architect is the only person allowed to do the detailed design of the designs we already have permission for?

We cannot and will not spend 300k on our house. not worth it and we don't have it.

muffler

donstavros, with all due respect you have now asked or stated your comments on 3 occasions so I don't see any need for further discussion. Have you read the replies? People have given you good advice here but for whatever reason you seem intent on carrying on a crusade that really and truly has nothing to do with us here.

I dont know what else you hope to achieve with this thread bar going on a total rant. Now read the replies and either accept or reject them but we cant help you any further.

sinnerboy

DLRCC area is well serviced by architectural practices , for you to obtain a 2nd opinion / alternative fee bid

Have a look at on line planning of DLRCC site and see what names keep cropping up - narrow your search by looking at extension works around you and search those addresses