M7/M8 Portlaoise-Castletown-Cullahill Motorway (incl. Abbeyleix Bypass)

Rovi

There's a new Newsletter out for this scheme, which hasn't yet put in an appearance on the NRA site.
Attached should be a quick and dirty scan of the Newsletter, and a scan of the enclosed colouring competition.

I've taken the liberty of obscuring the entry details of the colouring competition, to stop you lot from queering the pitch for the local kids.

Amtmann

For some reason I'm starting to feel more assured that this will open a wee bit early.

If it were to, does it rely on the M7 Castletown-Nenagh section being ready too, or could the M7/M8 scheme tie directly into the old N7 if needs be?

If not then we could actually have a sectional opening - the M8 from Cullahill to the toll and onwards to Portlaoise etc., with the M7 leg being a few months behind (assuming, as I said, that C-N isn't quite ready, which, in fairness, it probably will be).

EDIT: Nope, the M7/M8 scheme can open completely regardless of whether C-N is ready or not: http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/LaoisCountyCouncil/N8PortlaoisetoCullahillCastletown/Map,15444,en.pdf

mysterious

Furet wrote: »

For some reason I'm starting to feel more assured that this will open a wee bit early.

If it were to, does it rely on the M7 Castletown-Nenagh section being ready too, or could the M7/M8 scheme tie directly into the old N7 if needs be?

If not then we could actually have a sectional opening - the M8 from Cullahill to the toll and onwards to Portlaoise etc., with the M7 leg being a few months behind (assuming, as I said, that C-N isn't quite ready, which, in fairness, it probably will be).

EDIT: Nope, the M7/M8 scheme can open completely regardless of whether C-N is ready or not: http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/LaoisCountyCouncil/N8PortlaoisetoCullahillCastletown/Map,15444,en.pdf

Castletown scheme will open Q3 2010. This toll scheme is meant to open Q4 if not 2011.

The M7 leg is shorter, so I don't see why your saying the M8 leg should open or vice a versa. It's a toll road, so I don't see it been opened secionally either. If anything the M7 section would open quicker been shorter. They have already started work on the roundabout on the Borris in ossary scheme. Infact the M7/N7 leg is where they are seeming to be working extensively.

The road connections from the New M7 to the N7 will be no issue, they are building the access at Borris in Ossary anyway. So I have no idea where your getting these notions from:rolleyes:

BluntGuy

The reason the M8 scheme should arguably open earlier is to complete the Dublin-Cork route.

It does not rely on the M7 scheme being complete. If the motorway is completed up to the M7/M8 interchange and onto the Cullahill scheme, it's simply a matter of erecting appropiate signage on the M7 advising drivers that they must turn off at J18 in order to travel to Limerick.

I am not fully aware of the progress on the M7 schemes, so I don't know how likely/unlikely my idea is. Most likely they will open the whole scheme at once.

Amtmann

mysterious wrote: »

Castletown scheme will open Q3 2010. This toll scheme is meant to open Q4 if not 2011.

The M7 leg is shorter, so I don't see why your saying the M8 leg should open or vice a versa. It's a toll road, so I don't see it been opened secionally either. If anything the M7 section would open quicker been shorter. They have already started work on the roundabout on the Borris in ossary scheme. Infact the M7/N7 leg is where they are seeming to be working extensively.

The road connections from the New M7 to the N7 will be no issue, they are building the access at Borris in Ossary anyway. So I have no idea where your getting these notions from:rolleyes:

They weren't notions; they were speculative questions derived from the fact that the M7 leg of the PPP scheme *might* not have the C-N scheme to tie into when it is ready, if for some reason the C-N scheme isn't completed in time. This would not apply to the M8 leg, as the C-C scheme is already operational.

But as I did say mysterious, the M7 C-N scheme probably will be ready in time, and in any case the PPP scheme could simply rejoin the old N7 via the new link being connected to Borris-in-Ossory. *sheesh"

mysterious

It looks like they are advancing the Borris in ossary side quickely. it's almost ready to dig up the N7 to tarmac the roundabout. If there are advancing this side quickly it would seem that the C-N scheme will finsih

The Portlaosie M7/M8 scheme is really really slow at this stage. The N7 mountrath overbridge is practically abandonend, in three weeks, all they have been doing is filling small amounts of top soil to either side of the bridge so the gradient of the N7 will fly over. But this has been going on months now.

WTF is going on with all these contractors? :mad:

Why can't they fix the contracts and can the government f***** PAY EM. It seem to me, the contract, is toilet paper to me, cus these contracts are falling apart.

I heard rumours that the Portliaoise M7/M8 is rumored to be finished early 2011.??

Amtmann

I have received another update from my source close to the project. It is still on schedule; however, tensions have emerged between the contractor and Irish Rail about access to IR lands. If this isn't resolved soo then it could have an impact on the scheme's schedule. As things stand though, the M7/M8 PPP is on target.

El_Duderino 09

It is on schedule. I don’t think you fully appreciate the time it takes to build a structure, before you get into monthly budgets an contracts. Concrete has to be left for months in some places just to cure properly before being loaded with beams. Then the beams have to sit before the deck is ready to go. They have to keep everybody working so they can only employ so many crews. Some structures are close to completion now like the one between Mrath and Plaois. That will open in the next short while and so will some more before that. There was some woeful nonsense spoken here already 200 laid off and construction stopped for a month. Tar coldnt be laid in below 4 degrees but nowhere was near finish surface until now. One side road is very close and then the one above. Earthworks havent been rained off in a while and there doing a power of work. Lots of drainage is down.
Its due for completion the end of 2010 so theres no real rush.

Geogregor

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Concrete has to be left for months in some places just to cure properly before being loaded with beams.

No way, who told you about months? Weeks, yes, but not months.

Then the beams have to sit before the deck is ready to go.

No. If beams are prefabricated work on deck can start almost immediately.

Its due for completion the end of 2010 so theres no real rush.

Agree on that. They have plenty of time. I don't understand all this nonsense about being behind the schedule. They have more than 1.5 year to finish.

KevR

Bear in mind the MIUs were originally supposed to be completed by 2006!

The schedule was revised and they were put back to 2010 so they're all still on target so to speak but, at the same time, they're 4 years late/behind schedule.

Amtmann

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It is on schedule. I don’t think you fully appreciate the time it takes to build a structure, before you get into monthly budgets an contracts. Concrete has to be left for months in some places just to cure properly before being loaded with beams. Then the beams have to sit before the deck is ready to go. They have to keep everybody working so they can only employ so many crews. Some structures are close to completion now like the one between Mrath and Plaois. That will open in the next short while and so will some more before that. There was some woeful nonsense spoken here already 200 laid off and construction stopped for a month. Tar coldnt be laid in below 4 degrees but nowhere was near finish surface until now. One side road is very close and then the one above. Earthworks havent been rained off in a while and there doing a power of work. Lots of drainage is down.
Its due for completion the end of 2010 so theres no real rush.

Thanks for that. I'd hazard a guess that you have some connection to the site. If rubbish has been written here, it is only because the M7/M8 project is not being built as quickly as many others, such as the various M8 and M9 schemes for example. People notice when progress on one project is rapid, and also when progress on another project 30 miles away from the first is much slower. This has undoubtedly been the case with the M7/M8.

I have read various excuses, such as your one above about structures taking months to build. Fair enough; but the M7/M8 PPP has been at the construction phase since mid 2007! The M8 Mitchelstown to Fermoy, on the otherhand, had all of its structures open a mere 9 months after construction started there.

Another chap said you cannot do "muck shifts" in "wet weather". While I'm sure that's true, it seems to imply that we've had "wet weather" here for months upon months upon months. And that just isn't true: this has been one of the driest winters in a long time. And again, I must point out, "muck shifts" and bulk earthworks were carried out on the Fermoy to Mitchelstown scheme this winter.

As, indeed, was tarring. Another canard I've heard here. "You can't lay tar in temperatures below +4 celcius." Fine. But really, are people suggesting that all this past winter and spring temperatures haven't risen above that figure? Of course they have. And again, I have to point out that 8km of the M-F scheme received its CBM and first two asphalt layers between November 2008 and now. (In any case, who honestly believes that even one kilometre on the M7/M8 mainline is ready for even the first layer of asphalt?)

There's also the fact that the M7/M8 PPP newsletters are very uninformative. Builders on the site seem a bit defensive and say "so what"? So what indeed. The fact is, PPP contractors are obliged to produce newsletters, so if they produce a bad one, then they've only themselves to blame when the rumour mill starts turning - especially when your project has been overtaken at a frankly embarrassing rate by another project that started 6 months behind yours.

I am satisfied now that the project is on target, and I appreciate that it's unlikely to open before its scheduled completion date. That's fine. But builders, if you're reading this, don't think we're thick. Your various protestations about wetness, the amount of time it takes for concrete to dry, and about asphalt laying in cold weather just don't convince us. If you want to know why, then check out this thread.

Irish and Proud

Furet wrote: »

.....But builders, if you're reading this, don't think we're thick. Your various protestations about wetness, the amount of time it takes for concrete to dry, and about asphalt laying in cold weather just don't convince us. If you want to know why, then check out this thread.

Good man Furet!!!

...and that doesn't go just for road building and punctuality, it also goes for the provision of many other goods and services - something over which the ordinary people of this country are being fed pure BS. You're right mate, the business sector and politicians in this country seriously think that we (as the ordinary people) are plain thick! :mad:

Things that come to mind are

1) Public transport and excessively high fares - though oil prices and other costs are dropping - Why???

2) Road Tolls - surely these should be dropping in line with deflation, instead of increasing!

3) Taxi fares - I've to pay €15 for a 6 mile rural trip (one way)!

4) Of course, off the subject of transport, there are issues relating to Doctors, Dentists, Architects, Engineers etc, etc, etc... :mad:

Of course, the list could go on and on -

To the elite of this country - who do you think you're fooling??? :mad:

Regards!

El_Duderino 09

The tar is a non issue. No one should believe even one Km is ready for tar, no one suggested it. One side road got black top this week though. You see earthworks can continue in wet weather, but its slower and less cost effective. They were rained off a few days but it was pretty wet others. They are ahead of schedule so why push it when its less efficient. Most of the site closed for 3 days in feb when the snow came down, mainly because it was too cold for concrete. (The water in concrete crystallises at 4 degrees) so chippies and steel fixers were idle.
On another point the other job you mentioned may well be proceeding faster. Presumably there is a bonus on that job for early finish comparable to the penalty for late finish. So why bother working faster when they wont get paid any more to do so?
And to answer a question posted before, no they wont transfer resources from the other job finishing in Wicklow or Waterford or wherever it is. It doesn’t work like that. There is no problem with resources it is simply a matter of finding the most cost effective rate to work and finish, before the deadline.
You tell those builders though. More interested in breakfast rolls and those titty mags they call newspapers to answer questions I expect

Danno

Furet, I really don't understand where you are getting this "dry winter" information from! January deposited over 150mm in these parts, almost 200% of normal. The temperatures have been very low this winter also, esp in comparison to the previous ones. The ground temperatures have been even colder though. It could be 5c in the midday heat in January, but the ground can still be only 1c or 2c or even lower in calm conditions.

On another note, I drove from Ballacolla to Aghaboe (R434) the other day and it seems that alot of work is done, must be down to the rather fine second half of February. The overbridge over the to be M7 at Aghaboe is tarred and looks like it will be open in a very short time.

The motorway itself has a much better shape to it now, perhaps some tar could be laid soon too. The base of the road looks very smooth and looks like tar could be laid.

Kind Regards
Danno.

Amtmann

Danno wrote: »

Furet, I really don't understand where you are getting this "dry winter" information from! January deposited over 150mm in these parts, almost 200% of normal. The temperatures have been very low this winter also, esp in comparison to the previous ones. The ground temperatures have been even colder though. It could be 5c in the midday heat in January, but the ground can still be only 1c or 2c or even lower in calm conditions.

Fair points. But November and December were much drier than usual. I recall that there was even a concern in some parts that reservoir levels would drop too low, while the final two weeks of February were fine. It was a coldish winter to be sure, but not too cold to lay asphalt for much of the time if the M8 and M9 schemes are anything to go by.

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

Fair points. But November and December were much drier than usual. I recall that there was even a concern in some parts that reservoir levels would drop too low, while the final two weeks of February were fine. It was a coldish winter to be sure, but not too cold to lay asphalt for much of the time if the M8 and M9 schemes are anything to go by.

Unfortunately, from reading what El Duderino has said, the contractors on this scheme don't agree.

Plus, it seems they're not too bothered about getting an early completion bonus, maybe because they've calculated that it would cost them more in overtime payments etc than any potential bonus.

Rovi

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Plus, it seems they're not too bothered about getting an early completion bonus, maybe because they've calculated that it would cost them more in overtime payments etc than any potential bonus.

We're led to believe that the early completion bonus on many of these schemes has, erm... 'gone away', so I'd suspect that the plan now is to finish on time and within budget.

mysterious

The Nenagh Limerick scheme has being pushed till the end of the year as completion date. This is absaloutely unacceptable:mad:

I'm actually really concerned that the government are not on top of this.

Carawaystick

lads, bertie told us the roads'd be done by the end of 2006 and if you are going to be negative, why dont yes do yerself's in or something.

Since he left, the leadership of the country has been less inspiring.

back on topic, When CRG bult the Dundalk M1 bypass, they didn't get any of the toll money until it opened as an incentive. has the clock started on the concession for the M7/8 ppp or has sloppy wording allowed this construction to drag on?

I'd imagine whatever number of vehicles paying a toll would be an early completion bonus.....

marmurr1916

Rovi wrote: »

We're led to believe that the early completion bonus on many of these schemes has, erm... 'gone away', so I'd suspect that the plan now is to finish on time and within budget.

Wouldn't the early completion bonuses be written into the contracts?

Rovi

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Wouldn't the early completion bonuses be written into the contracts?

Yes indeed, but the rumour around here is that 'in light of the current economic situation', the early completion bonus part of many contracts has been re-negotiated.

El_Duderino 09

The early completion bonus is not necessarily written in. the late penalty is most certainly written in with certain clauses but the early completion is usually an ad-hoc agreement, if the job is ahead of schedule and if the NRA want to pay more to have it completed early.

Furet about this canard of your own, a dry Nov and Dec, relatively dry it might have been, but when it rained it rained heavy for a week or two and the likes. The ground is not only wet while it rains but also for a considerable period afterwards. During which time earth is slower to move and bulks more and might need lime treatment to keep it from turning to complete slop. Cost effective it is not for that part of the year. So why push it when your ahead of schedule and it will cost extra?

Amtmann

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The early completion bonus is not necessarily written in. the late penalty is most certainly written in with certain clauses but the early completion is usually an ad-hoc agreement, if the job is ahead of schedule and if the NRA want to pay more to have it completed early.

Furet about this canard of your own, a dry Nov and Dec, relatively dry it might have been, but when it rained it rained heavy for a week or two and the likes. The ground is not only wet while it rains but also for a considerable period afterwards. During which time earth is slower to move and bulks more and might need lime treatment to keep it from turning to complete slop. Cost effective it is not for that part of the year. So why push it when your ahead of schedule and it will cost extra?

I can accept all that. My gripe is with the explanation frequently given that "you can't do x, y, z in winter." Clearly you can - see the N18 and M8 schemes as examples.

The real explanation, so, is not bad weather, which is what was initially claimed (if not by you then by others). It is that the contractor is in no particular hurry.

Carawaystick

Furet wrote: »

The real explanation, so, is not bad weather, which is what was initially claimed (if not by you then by others). It is that the contractor is in no particular hurry.

And as this is a toll road, then it can be inferred that the contact was so poorly written that there is no incentive for the developer to get cash in sooner from tolls, like the M1.

ForiegnNational

Some third hand information on the whole M7/M8 Portlaoise/Castletown/Cullahill scheme...

The contractors have been told to go slow on the whole project, even move completion out to 2011, so that that the company can keep on all of the workers.

As the early completion bonus is a thing of the past, they are willing to take the punative late charges, will still break even on the project, and not have to sack people.

One way to keep jobs in the current climate, but a nightmare for all people that are going to have to endure another two years of Abbeyleix and Durrow.

BluntGuy

Ah, so it seems my sneaking suspicion of this not being finished until mid 2011 may not be so ridiculous.

Funny in a way though. If that happens, the government will have failed even on its MIU promise.

mysterious

Fianna fail, really need to scrap this alot done more to do bubus.

I really think it's bye bye for fianna fail for me. They have ****ed up badly. They enjoyed the economic celtic tiger era for two terms and ****ed it up.

Think thsi is enough to be said here. They couldn't even complete a 4 year late project ontime.

Ouch this country, OUch...

Zoney

BluntGuy wrote: »

Ah, so it seems my sneaking suspicion of this not being finished until mid 2011 may not be so ridiculous.

Funny in a way though. If that happens, the government will have failed even on its MIU promise.

You mean its *second* MIU promise. At the publishing of the original NDP, the routes were supposed to be done by 2006, and indeed the government kept touting that date for years. It was never going to happen though because they split the routes up into small projects. Imagine if we had the interurbans done by 2006. We would surely have N11/M11 and M18 finished by now and M20 underway. Being 4 years late makes a *big* difference (not just because of the bust following boom either).

Chris_533976

Great, so its looking like the most important part of the M8 and massive swathes of the M7 are going to miss the 2010 completion date.

And yet the progress on Crusheen - Gort is phenomenal. As it Mitch - Fermoy.

I think if there are going to be any new projects started that its pretty obvious which companies are going to be picked to build them.

BluntGuy

Well, unless you see some roadtop down with in the next four months (at the most), it will not hit its Q3 2010 target or even a Q4 2010 target. We're fast approaching the deadline event horizon for this particular scheme.

It's a shame CRG are proceeding so sluggishly on this scheme, because their workrate on the Waterford Bypass has been phenomenal. And let us not forget that that scheme involves a massive bridge.

I don't care for this rationale about keeping people in jobs for as long as possible constructing the road. As far as I'm concerned, roads should be built as quick as possible to minimize accidents.

If just ONE person dies on the M7/M8 stretches in question simply because the contractors deliberately slowed down...