Mixing with/without the band present

Niall - Dahlia

Was reading an article where John Leckie talks about his sessions with The Stone Roses (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb05/articles/classictracks.htm). Funnily enough the standout quote for me wasn't anything to do with his studio technique, but rather "the time it takes to mix is directly proportional to the number of people in the room". Never a truer word I've found, and something I've been thinking about lately.

Recently I've been mixing without the band present and find I get more done and with better results. What's the preference for you guys? Pros and cons? Depends on the artist? How do you approach the band about this? Offer it as a suggestion? Or just simply state that mixing alone is how you work and that's it?

The whole thing was highlighted for me recently while I was mixing an EP, alone. The singer dropped by during the day to see how things were going, loved the tracks that were finished, agreed to come down that night to hear the final track. When the band came back I was still mixing. Fine, they'd sit behind me quietly while I mixed (yeah right!). Big mistake. Instantly started offering suggestions. That wouldn't normally be a problem, but when they are asking for effects on guitars and vocals when I'm concentrating on drums, it's very frustrating, completely makes me lose my train of thought and where I am in the mix.

Opinions?

ungratefuldead

Hi,


what I do usually when a mix down a project is to clean all the tracks and have down a basic mix of the drums (Gate, compression,EQ) and bass,before call the band in. I leave guitar and vocals as they are (just a little panning and level correction).


After that I call the band (what I prefer is have only one member of the band with me the "leader" or the person that wrote the tune) and finish with him the mixing.

What i do I prepare 3 different version of the mix to be present to the full band, and they decide which one the like most and what they want to modify.

usually I don't like have to many persons with me when I'm doing drums.

I thing that is always better have one member of the band during the mixing process that explain you how they want the songs sound, but have them all with you is just time consuming.

teamdresch

Depends on the song.
Sometimes I'll get to a point where I can go one of several ways with a mix, at which time I'll get the band to drop by and offer their input.
As a rule though, I'll always try to get a mix to 70% before getting the band involved.

squibs

As an amateur, I won't mix with the talent in the room. I'll do the tracking and get the talent back in a week. I realise a pro studio won't have this luxury, but as I'm often paid in pints the rule is 'my way or the highway'.

My reasons are:
1) I get nervous with an audience
2) If the talent is watching, the main input is often "make mine louder"
3) When mixing, I'll often add a creative effect which will sound pants until I spend a bit of time dialling in the sound I'm after. This does little to inspire confidence in the band.
4) Sometimes I'll be asked to add musical parts, sound effects, etc. - nothing gets done when the talent inevitably wants to audition every single pad preset in the studio for a four bar keyboard line.
5) I track on day one, mix on day two and tweak on day three to keep my ears fresh and maintain perspective.

Neurojazz

I find i talk through *everything* that's being done... the client learns about mixing and they rarely get a word in edgeways ;P

But, seriously - talk through the process with them rather than sit silently twiddling - the best way to learn is too teach

PaulBrewer

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Recently I've been mixing without the band present and find I get more done and with better results. What's the preference for you guys? Pros and cons? Depends on the artist? How do you approach the band about this? Offer it as a suggestion? Or just simply state that mixing alone is how you work and that's it?

completely makes me lose my train of thought and where I am in the mix.

Opinions?

I prefer to work Sans Band if at all possible - mixing is a balancing act both actually and mentally and thus is easily unbalanced.

I think in terms as the singer as the centre of the track, then the rhythm elements - drums , bass, keys, guitars that are constant through sections of the song , then lead elements , solos or riffs that drop in or out and lastly FX elements , what ever they may be inc BVs.

Moving a track along in that logical fashion works well for me.

The problem I find with bands contributions is they don't fit into that logical progression and therefore disturb the 'balance'

But the Bands contribution is vital, after all there's no point giving them what they don't want .

So, what I do is talk the band through the mix beforehand using references that they like i.e. their influences (providing they'll admit to any!)

There's one band called Jester we're about to work with and we asked them for some very rough demos AND a CD of tracks that they like.
We can then talk in a shared language and 'pre mix' by discussion beforehand and through the whole recording process.

I find this works well while allowing you to do your job whilst allowing the band to have a say in the mix.

if6was9

What I found when mixing with people there is that stuff I want to get done like, eqing, cleaning, compression and stuff like that didn't get done like I really wanted as I didn't get to spend as much time on it as I would have alone.
As far as the band is concerned they have the effects they wanted and the levels were decent. They might happy with the sound but you know it could be better- tighter,punchier and clearer. The band don't really want to see you spend an hour cleaning up the tom hits and editing their performance- to them thats not neccessary and wasted time- they want to move on.

Also I do get nervous and feel a little strange sweeping around with an EQ listening for something and setting up a compressor when others are around. I kinda feel like they might think I don't know what I'm doing if i'm going over the same thing over and over trying to get it right ya know.

danjokill

I shouldn't say really and I do hide it well ......... But sometimes I want to shoot the F**k*ers!!!:pac:

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

I shouldn't say really and I do hide it well ......... But sometimes I want to shoot the F**k*ers!!!:pac:

Hell Yea, Recording without the band that's the plan!

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Hell Yea, Recording without the band that's the plan!

Hell yeah .... give me the tune I'll play all the instruments, record, mix and master it. And if anyone asks we will do a Milli Vanilli on it!!!! LOL

Seziertisch

It would depend on whether someone in the band had an actual clue or not, but I would never do it with all members present.

I saw an interview with John Porter talking about working with the Smiths. Generally it was just him and Johnny Marr when it came to mix down, with one exception, the song Rubber Ring. It was initially slated to be a single but the mix relegated it from that category.

He said basically everyone wanted their bit louder/clearly audible which meant that everything was kind of at the same level in the end instead of some elements standing out.

I have never had to mix a band, but based on the sh#te I have heard talked by fellow musicians about their ideas for their music I could imagine it would be pretty unproductive having a lot of musicians present.

dav nagle

Best thing to do is to tie the band up and lock them in a steel container, with ventilation of course or just tell them that mixing is an art and cannot be done well with everyone spluttering their opinions all over the shop :eek:

Niall - Dahlia

PaulBrewer wrote: »

So, what I do is talk the band through the mix beforehand using references that they like i.e. their influences (providing they'll admit to any!)

There's one band called Jester we're about to work with and we asked them for some very rough demos AND a CD of tracks that they like.
We can then talk in a shared language and 'pre mix' by discussion beforehand and through the whole recording process.

That's pretty much how I'm working now, I'd much rather sit down on my own with a few reference albums and have a pre-mix discussion with the band about what they want.

PaulBrewer

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

That's pretty much how I'm working now, I'd much rather sit down on my own with a few reference albums and have a pre-mix discussion with the band about what they want.

Or you can do it the Damn Stoopid way as I'm doing the very minute for The Blizzards ... Doing a mix and sending an Mp3 .... then doing a changed mix and sending an MP3 ....then doing a changed mix and sending an MP3 ....hen doing a changed mix and sending an MP3 ....:(

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Or you can do it the Damn Stoopid way as I'm doing the very minute for The Blizzards ... Doing a mix and sending an Mp3 .... then doing a changed mix and sending an MP3 ....then doing a changed mix and sending an MP3 ....hen doing a changed mix and sending an MP3 ....:(

I can't understand why anyone would want to stay in a room and listen to anyone mix. The experience makes you want to claw your eyes out after 5 minutes.


.......my experience,,,,what'd you think,,,, lower the reverb on the vocals and drop them lower in the mix,,,, d'you want to fix the scrappy bits on the guitar,,, no ,, are you sure,,, yes,,,are you sure,,,, yes, the "mistakes" keep knocking people off gaurd, they know they're not listening to robots.,,,,,,,,,,,ok what do you think ,,, what do you mean, I haven't been able to hear anything for the last few hours,you keep stop starting and tweaking,,,,,,


I don't like the idea of the engineer relying on reference cd's..How am I to know he's not mixing to Phil Collins greatest hits while I'm out of the room.


You always just have to trust your sound man or mixer. Let people do their work,,, if they **** up it can be fixed later.

Personally I don't like heavy mixing. I don't like a record that sounds like someones mixed it so it sounds like it's come from an FM station -- even though you're playing the CD. If you play an old 78 rpm through an FM station it will compress the same

I really love good mastering. Theres's a huge difference between mastering and mixing.

Recording

mixing

mastering

are all separate arts and should be done by completely different people.

Who exactly do the blizzards think they are --- White snake?

PaulBrewer

:eek:

krd wrote: »

Who exactly do the blizzards think they are --- White snake?

??????????????????

danjokill

krd wrote: »

Who exactly do the blizzards think they are --- White snake?

Lost on this one as well ......

As for mastering I agree it's a different beast altogether ..... Although if I'm giving a band a CD at the end of a session to take home to listen I do tend to try and level her up a bit on the master-bus with a preset plug-in so the can listen to it at home at some kind on normal level ....... but do stipulate that this has not been Mastered correctly.

Seziertisch

krd wrote: »

Who exactly do the blizzards think they are --- White snake?

Well they do have Ireland's answer to Roy Thomas Baker doing mixes for them.

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

Well they do have Ireland's answer to Roy Thomas Baker doing mixes for them.

Yes - we are about the same size - though I have the good sense not to try to have long hair!

Just mixing 2 'acoustic' B-sides that were recorded in a couple of hours - and bejaysus they sound like it!

Niall - Dahlia

Completely lost me aswell there krd! The reference CD's would be given by the band, so they'd be in the same genre and a good guide to the sounds the band are after.

Paul I think the MP3 back and forth is a mad way of doing it. I'd almost prefer to have the whole band, all their girlfriends and 3 producers in the room!

PaulBrewer

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Paul I think the MP3 back and forth is a mad way of doing it. I'd almost prefer to have the whole band, all their girlfriends and 3 producers in the room!

Proper pain in da Whole ok!

Savman

Hmm....mixing without the band present....I can picture that gig :pac::pac: