The Beijing Olympics

Meganee

What are your thoughts on the Beijing Olympics this year?


I am a postgraduate student at DCU - I'm writing my dissertation on the public discourse in Ireland surrounding the Beijing Olympics. Essentially, I am interested in what Irish residents think of the Olympics being held in China.

Thoughts?


(If you have 5 minutes or so, you can REALLY help me out by answering this ever-so-short questionnaire: Beijing & Dublin - Thoughts on the Olympics survey

Thirdfox

Done that for you. I'm pretty sure I qualify as resident (as an Irish citizen) - but my views as a former Chinese citizen may be a bit different to your average Joe though .

edit: To promote discussion here though here is what I wrote (as my extra comment at the end):

The words I chose above are rather conflicting as they essentially present two sides of what is being covered (one in China and focusing on sport, and the other in "Western" media (my sources of news are NYTimes, BBC, and Irish Times) and focusing on politicising the games).

My article that I wrote in our paper highlights the fact that the media here can be so blindly hypocritical and one sided that one would think the Chinese people are savages to be shot, the environment so toxic that people are going to fall like flies, genocide (not a word used lightly) is practised around every corner. It is a shame, and one view that I absolutely disagree with.

Of course, this episode - of the violent protests in London/Paris/San Francisco (you didn't hear about the perfectly normal ones that took place in the other countries) during the torch relay and the way our media portrays issues that I personally know about certainly has made me lose a lot of faith in the Western self-proclaimed style of freedom of the press - the press is free to say whatever they want, yet they focus on only one side (including half-truths and mistruths). Often when a Chinese citizen stands up to give their version of events s/he is labelled brainwashed, their opinion ignored.

This episode has certainly left a very sour taste in my mouth in regards to my trust of how "free" we really are, and what right if any do we have to lecture other countries on their affairs when we seemingly have such big problems with our own.

As a law student we are told to analyse all sides before presenting an argument, frankly it has been pretty much ignored in this instance. And the danger is that the ordinary person on the street isn't going to think twice about accepting what the media here has stated as "the truth". Chinese propaganda is blatant and obvious...much more dangerous is the insidious type of reporting I have seen in our media over the last few weeks - makes me question what else have they misled me about.

The media here have achieved their goal anyway - I am completely unexcited about the games now, but I will still be rooting for our boys (and girls) in green (as well as red and gold) on the day I'm sure.

CCCP^

Done!

Pride Fighter

I'd prefer the Olympics to be held in a democratic nation. Just my preference, but good luck to the Chinese in hosting it.

BlaasForRafa

Thirdfox wrote: »

My article that I wrote in our paper highlights the fact that the media here can be so blindly hypocritical and one sided that one would think the Chinese people are savages to be shot, the environment so toxic that people are going to fall like flies, genocide (not a word used lightly) is practised around every corner. It is a shame, and one view that I absolutely disagree with.

At least you have the opportunity to criticise here. Try doing that in China and see what labour camp you end up in.

To cut to the chase, lets see if these questions can be answered.

1: Is china a totalitarian state?
2: Are there free and fair elections?
3: Is there an official opposition in china?
4: Is there widespread media censorship in china?
5: Is there censorship of the internet in china?

The only reason western/democratic governments are so easy on China is that they value money before they value the people of china. The west relies too much on cheap imports from china and cheap manufacturing in China to really criticize the chinese government properly.

As for the games, they will go on, coca cola and nike and many others will get lots of advertising. Whether it has any real tangible benefit for the chinese people is doubtful aside from feeling pride that their country hosted the games.

GuanYin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

At least you have the opportunity to criticise here. Try doing that in China and see what labour camp you end up in.

Lets try keep hyperbole out of this debate. Many chinese criticize the government and are free and walking around.

1: Is china a totalitarian state?

Is it a democracy? No. Is it totalitarian? No.

2: Are there free and fair elections?

Your question is loaded. China is not a democracy.

Does the US have free and fair elections? Does Irish voting represent the will of the people (especially when they have to re-vote)?

3: Is there an official opposition in china?
4: Is there widespread media censorship in china?
5: Is there censorship of the internet in china?

There is a censorship of many western values. Which, while inherently wrong,
is done for reasons that have some logic to the Chinese.

Incidently, we've banned this topic in the past. I'll ban any person who uses this thread for anti-chinese propaganda. Stick to the facts, not conjecture.

BlaasForRafa

GuanYin wrote: »

Incidently, we've banned this topic in the past. I'll ban any person who uses this thread for anti-chinese propaganda. Stick to the facts, not conjecture.

Was what I said anti-chinese people? I hope not, it certainly wasn't intended to be.

Was it anti-chinese government? absolutely.

I realise china's culture is far older than most western cultures and their values can be (and probably are) different and thats fine. Perhaps the chinese people don't want democracy and would prefer to be in a permanent one party state?...thats quite possible but I can't help feeling that democracy is the right of all people. Sure its not always fair, the world isn't perfect...but they should have the right to it which are currently being denied them in my opinion.

GuanYin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I can't help feeling that democracy is the right of all people. Sure its not always fair, the world isn't perfect...but they should have the right to it which are currently being denied them in my opinion.

You've been brought up in a democracy and know nothing else, you aren't exactly in a place to offer an objective opinion.

I would not defend the PRC over democracy but I will say I respect the opinions of the Chinese people who say they are happy in China. The current Chinese Premier, Wen Jiabao, is very popular among the people and progressive in terms of the PRC.

For someone who has a knowledge of the situation based on, quite frankly, biased media, to state that their way is better, is both ignorant and arrogant, as much as someone with no experience of democracy barring the anti-western attitudes in the east would be so should they decry democracy.

BlaasForRafa

GuanYin wrote: »

You've been brought up in a democracy and know nothing else, you aren't exactly in a place to offer an objective opinion.

I would not defend the PRC over democracy but I will say I respect the opinions of the Chinese people who say they are happy in China. The current Chinese Premier, Wen Jiabao, is very popular among the people and progressive in terms of the PRC.

For someone who has a knowledge of the situation based on, quite frankly, biased media, to state that their way is better, is both ignorant and arrogant, as much as someone with no experience of democracy barring the anti-western attitudes in the east would be so should they decry democracy.

You've made an assumption on where I have been brought up based on no evidence so for you to say what my knowledge is based on is ignorant and arrogant.

GuanYin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You've made an assumption on where I have been brought up based on no evidence so for you to say what my knowledge is based on is ignorant and arrogant.

I made no such assumption. I stated a conditional opinion. Were you raised in a democracy or under the jurisdiction of one? If not, where were you brought up?

SkepticOne

Done!

Kev_ps3

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'd prefer the Olympics to be held in a democratic nation. Just my preference, but good luck to the Chinese in hosting it.

Why? Democraticy in the west is a joke. A few partys who are essentially the same. Thats not true democraticy.

My view is that the western media are trying to put a bad image on the Olympics because they are fearful of the coming superpower that is China.

wes

Filled out the survey.

As for China, well best of luck to them with the Olympics. At the very least the Olympics may serve to highlight conditions in China good or bad.

BlaasForRafa

GuanYin wrote: »

I made no such assumption. I stated a conditional opinion. Were you raised in a democracy or under the jurisdiction of one? If not, where were you brought up?

Where and how I was brought up is none of your business.

GuanYin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Where and how I was brought up is none of your business.

Yeah, I figured as much. Nice try at diversionary tactics there. I guess unless you state otherwise, you were brought up in a western democracy and my original point stands.

Fighting Irish

Anyone who cares needs to get a life, lets say everyone in china started getting paid properly, then most things we buy will get more expensive and then you complain about that, you can't have it both ways

Overheal

GuanYin wrote: »

There is a censorship of many western values. Which, while inherently wrong,
is done for reasons that have some logic to the Chinese.

True. By very definition I guess you have to call that xenophobia but look what it has done for them and their culture - instead of what you have in europe: the freedom of movement and the melting pot of culture essentially (I mean hell you guys managed to invoke just a little irish into me, and American Television has certainly done a number on you) is what we value; that freedom to view all ideas - that by through assimilation by choice the best ideas will persevere.

On the other hand China never did that, and its very clear that while sometimes that causes them to get it wrong in my opinion (human rights, green issues, etc) you cant fault them for much of their culture that remains very strong, my favorite example being Shaolin Kung Fu o'course (something which may have never survived as long as it did purely through assimilation by choice). Say what you want but the chinese have a very strong sense of discipline about wavering to outside influence (not to mention discipline in their daily lives), and I respect that.

BlaasForRafa

GuanYin wrote: »

Yeah, I figured as much. Nice try at diversionary tactics there. I guess unless you state otherwise, you were brought up in a western democracy and my original point stands.

Why should I give personal information about myself to some antagonistic stranger on the internet?.

Your original point was flawed in any case...how do we know what the chinese people want when they haven't been given a chance to express it by voting?

Thirdfox

Because voting isn't the only way of expressing what you want?

GuanYin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Why should I give personal information about myself to some antagonistic stranger on the internet?.

Why would you allude to a false presumption if you're not willing to confirm the invalidity?

Your original point was flawed in any case...how do we know what the chinese people want when they haven't been given a chance to express it by voting?

So noone without a vote has every expressed their opinion?
Women, african americans, subjects of the old British empire.... we never heard from them :rolleyes:

Overheal wrote:

True. By very definition I guess you have to call that xenophobia but look what it has done for them and their culture - instead of what you have in europe: the freedom of movement and the melting pot of culture essentially (I mean hell you guys managed to invoke just a little irish into me, and American Television has certainly done a number on you) is what we value; that freedom to view all ideas - that by through assimilation by choice the best ideas will persevere.

Is it true xenophobia though? Western culture and influence is apparent and available in China, the difference is the state refuses to abandon it's own culture for the sake of it.

Look at Japan for instance, they're almost mocked for their westernification (the haircuts, the skin whitening, the operations to round out their eyes and put folds in their eyelids) and the consignment of their culture to stereotyped fiction.

I'm not Irish by the way, I've only been to Ireland a few times and from what I can see, Ireland is a case in point, such a rich historic culture that has been all but forsaken in the pursuit of US trends and capitalism.

BlaasForRafa

GuanYin wrote: »

So noone without a vote has every expressed their opinion?
Women, african americans, subjects of the old British empire.... we never heard from them :rolleyes:

.

Right...so you want to take the vote away from women, bring back slavery and return africa to colonisation. That explains a lot about your previous posts.

GuanYin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Right...so you want to take the vote away from women, bring back slavery and return africa to colonisation. That explains a lot about your previous posts.

Please show me where I said that or retract the comment before I'm forced into moderator mode.

At his stage I see you as a troll, I'd like to think I'm wrong and you've just accidently misrepresented me..

Thirdfox

GuanYin wrote: »

I'm not Irish by the way, I've only been to Ireland a few times and from what I can see, Ireland is a case in point, such a rich historic culture that has been all but forsaken in the pursuit of US trends and capitalism.

I am Irish (though not a typical one I reckon). But De Valera's view of Ireland as completely separate from the UK with maidens dancing at the crossroads isn't one that most people would aspire to nowadays.

I don't think the culture has been forsaken, but being a small island nation it has done what needs to be done in order to prosper in the world (open up to international trade and export lots of goods).

Though my point point is hardly here or there in regards to Beijing.



Back on topic - reading the BBC's China Blog by James Reynolds (which is an interesting read for many reasons) you can see how journalists will end up cherry-picking inflammatory comments made and ignore the reasoned considered arguments of Chinese and non-Chinese posters who understand the Chinese viewpoint on things. Likewise you will see plenty of holier-than-thou people who basically lambaste the country (its government AND its people) for actions that do not subscribe to their way of thinking.

I wonder do these people who spew such vitriolic remarks (and maybe genuinely think that this will help the Chinese people) believe that their actions are positively affecting how the Chinese people see people in England, US etc.? Have they not considered that continuously attacking a country is not the best way to achieve their aims? The gap between people only widens and I fear at one point the Chinese who used to respect what the "West" has achieved for itself will deem it irrelevant... and then times will get interesting (not to mention dangerous).

A quote that I heard today - Churchill - always better to jaw-jaw than to war-war...

wes

Thirdfox wrote: »

Because voting isn't the only way of expressing what you want?

True, but it is however the best system we have at present imho. It has many faults and democracies are by no means perfect and are no angels either (see the Iraq war).

I can't quite see how the Chinese government can possibly know the wishes of its people without elections of some kind. I mean a representative picture. Wouldn't a 1 party system mean that one view would dominate?

I know certain groups can lobby if they have the cash and engage in other methods. This would still skew things in favor of a few who can lobby and or have the pull to agitate on there own behalf.

Thirdfox

See the debates people have had here over democracy (what is it anyway - the US system, UK system etc.) and the Lisbon referendum result controversy (which is democracy at its supposed best - direct say by the people over political matters). I'm not convinced that democracy as we practise it, is the best way of deciding what's best for our national interests.

Oh, just saw on the NY Times they have a clip of undercover footage of the opening ceremony...
http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/30/a-sneak-preview-literally-of-the-opening-ceremony/index.html?hp
They actually ask does it look "vaguely fascist"... I seem to remember the outrage Americans expressed when that Fox News presenter asked was the Obama knuckle tap a "terrorist fist jab" or something of the sort. How can people purport to say that they are objective (in this instance anyway). Might as well say that every opening ceremony after 1936 was facist then (including all those US ones too...)

But back to your point - I think the main difference in a democracy like we have here in Ireland and the system they have in China is that if things go wrong, after 5 years we can throw the government out... but inbetween those 5 years we are remarkably similar (in terms of knowing the wishes of its people) - lobby groups and people communicate, not by voting, but by literally speaking and telling them what their wishes are. One could argue that the Chinese people have given the current government their mandate by supporting them over the KMT during the civil war (our "wars" aka general elections are fought much more regularly though).

wes

Thirdfox wrote: »

See the debates people have had here over democracy (what is it anyway - the US system, UK system etc.) and the Lisbon referendum result controversy (which is democracy at its supposed best - direct say by the people over political matters). I'm not convinced that democracy as we practise it, is the best way of deciding what's best for our national interests.

I agree that there are problems with democracy. Still a 1 party system would tend to represent one view to the best of my knowledge. For all democracies faults, there are at least 2 views (at a minimum) represented in our system.

Thirdfox wrote: »

Oh, just saw on the NY Times they have a clip of undercover footage of the opening ceremony...
http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/30/a-sneak-preview-literally-of-the-opening-ceremony/index.html?hp
They actually ask does it look "vaguely fascist"... I seem to remember the outrage Americans expressed when that Fox News presenter asked was the Obama knuckle tap a "terrorist fist jab" or something of the sort. How can people purport to say that they are objective (in this instance anyway). Might as well say that every opening ceremony after 1936 was facist then (including all those US ones too...)

The vaguely fascist things sounds like a joke to me.

I know the Western media has problems, but we do have access to a lot of it.

I have access to Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Pakistani, and Indian news channels and some of these are more favorable to China.

Thirdfox wrote: »

But back to your point - I think the main difference in a democracy like we have here in Ireland and the system they have in China is that if things go wrong, after 5 years we can throw the government out... but inbetween those 5 years we are remarkably similar (in terms of knowing the wishes of its people) - lobby groups and people communicate, not by voting, but by literally speaking and telling them what their wishes are. One could argue that the Chinese people have given the current government their mandate by supporting them over the KMT during the civil war (our "wars" aka general elections are fought much more regularly though).

I don't think that is a fair representation. The opposition can agitate against the government and can sometime even beat government legislation. Having the opposition there keeps the government honest, as they know if they mess up they get kicked out at the election.

In a one party system, this threat doesn't exist.

Thirdfox

But that's under the assumption that the party is one big happy family - political reality says that it's all about political manoveuring, backstabbing (smoke and daggers as our former Taoiseach so eloquently put it) etc. Make major mistakes (bribery for the Chinese FDA head - execution, jailtime for the mayor of Shanghai too I believe).

So while there isn't an external opposition to deal with, to say that everything goes swimmingly and leaders can act with total impunity (which I don't think is exactly what you're suggesting) is not the case... not even in North Korea I would guess.

The People's Congress are elected by citizens of China (though our Chinese Constitutional law professor stated that for the most part they are wholly ineffective). Ethnic minorities get their own mini-parliament with their own political parties I believe. But of course it is the politburo that holds nearly all the power - that doesn't mean they can't be toppled from within though.

Somewhat similar to the Law Society - do you trust them to self-regulate? Many don't but that's the system they have right now and it hasn't been completely bad has it?

Firetrap

Done. I've mixed feelings about the whole thing. The Olympics has led to greater publicity for unpleasant things about China but I don't think it's going to lead to changes. China is such an enormous economic power that western governments are prepared to ignore a lot of things just so they can do business with the Chinese

wes

Thirdfox wrote: »

But that's under the assumption that the party is one big happy family - political reality says that it's all about political manoveuring, backstabbing (smoke and daggers as our former Taoiseach so eloquently put it) etc. Make major mistakes (bribery for the Chinese FDA head - execution, jailtime for the mayor of Shanghai too I believe).

This is true to a degree, but people in the same party aren't going to differ hugely on most issues. There would be broad agreement on most things. People may differ on the details however.

Thirdfox wrote: »

So while there isn't an external opposition to deal with, to say that everything goes swimmingly and leaders can act with total impunity (which I don't think is exactly what you're suggesting) is not the case... not even in North Korea I would guess.

I would disagree on North Korea, from everything I have read on them, the leader can do as he please. China is no where near that bad.

Its more that a singular party vision and particular point of view is the only one that exists. People in the same party are not going to be very different, they may not see eye to eye on certain issues, but in the end they are in the same party and there vision of things would not differ too greately.

Thirdfox wrote: »

The People's Congress are elected by citizens of China (though our Chinese Constitutional law professor stated that for the most part they are wholly ineffective). Ethnic minorities get their own mini-parliament with their own political parties I believe. But of course it is the politburo that holds nearly all the power - that doesn't mean they can't be toppled from within though.

While such systems could evolve to be democracy in the future. There is still a concentration of power in a single groups hands.

The way I see, while a single party system may have efficiency benefits, having so much power in too few hands, with little chance of them paying the price if they mess up is a bad idea.

As for toppling from with, well that could happen, but the system doesn't make this an ongoing threat to the people in charge if they screw up. They could just as easily mess up very badly and cling on to power.

Thirdfox wrote: »

Somewhat similar to the Law Society - do you trust them to self-regulate? Many don't but that's the system they have right now and it hasn't been completely bad has it?

Its a different situation to be fair. They don't run the country.

GuanYin

You know, reading the posts here, you'd really think that the PRC is both anti-democracy and tyranical. In actual fact neither is the case. China shifted towards a more liberal society and made great reforms in the 80's (and unfortunately climaxed in a tragedy through issues downstream of party politics and dissent among conservatives) and the current premier is on record as stating that democracy is the ultimate goal of the PRC.

Thirdfox

As an update - the NY Times has pulled the fascist remark... and the video has been pulled from Youtube apparently (it is copyrighted material and subject to confidentiality agreements afterall).