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The Beijing Olympics

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    #92
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    GuanYin wrote: »
    In what way?

    Trying to equate sins of omission/failures with sins of commission is unfair.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    They make no affirmative action to stop the caste system, which isn't exactly opposing it.

    You are incorrect.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    You don't need a dictator to stamp anyone out. You just need to protect your weakest citizens.

    Sounds good but eradicating the ideas of inferior/superior castes/tribes (and resultant attitudes & discrimination) in 1-2 generations needs a bit more than just idealism.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    Democracy is screwed generally. It doesn't work well and where it does work, it is a pale impression of democracy relative to your wealth.

    Very sweeping statements! What great system(s)/ideas have you got for the democracies of this world instead?
    GuanYin wrote: »
    One philosophy states that you judge a society on how it treats the weakest or poorest of it's people.

    Let me ask you. Simple question. Where would you rather try to raise your family as a lower class citizen. Democractic India or Communist China?

    I think I'd much rather be here...given my lucky position of being born in a 1st world country (even if it was sort of "the poorest of the rich" way back then..) I find it hard to answer. If you're talking about people of the same wealth levels in both states I think I would actually pick India...


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    #93
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Trying to equate sins of omission/failures with sins of commission is unfair.
    To a point, if you have the power to try and end a problem and don't, you are in a very morally ambiguous place. Isn't that the whole biblical teaching around the crucifixion?
    You are incorrect.
    In your opinion? You know how things work here, please elaborate.
    Sounds good but eradicating the ideas of inferior/superior castes/tribes (and resultant attitudes & discrimination) in 1-2 generations needs a bit more than just idealism.
    True, but actively enforcing laws to stop hate crimes and prejudice and incorporating social schemes to aide the needy shouldn't be an ideal in these modern times.

    India may aspire to such but they have done very little about it in a practical sense.
    Very sweeping statements! What great system(s)/ideas have you got for the democracies of this world instead?
    I don't know, I live in a supposed democratic state where opposing democracy in any way, even as a thought exercise, gets you labelled a communist as common courtesy and probably a traitor and terrorist as an extreme.

    That isn't democracy in action, but I can only vote for one of two almost identical parties to try and change that.

    On the other hand, how many times do you guys have to vote on European treaties? Until you get it right?

    As I said, we operate in some grotesque form of democracy, but unfortunately not real democracy.
    I think I'd much rather be here...given my lucky position of being born in a 1st world country (even if it was sort of "the poorest of the rich" way back then..) I find it hard to answer. If you're talking about people of the same wealth levels in both states I think I would actually pick India...

    Why would you pick India?
    You'd rather be subject to a caste system than socialism (even if it is under communist authoritarianizm).

    What is the point in having a voice if you're such an outcast noone cares, listens or even wants to acknowledge you exist?


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    #94
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    GuanYin wrote: »
    To a point, if you have the power to try and end a problem and don't, you are in a very morally ambiguous place. Isn't that the whole biblical teaching around the crucifixion?

    Okay, but it is not equivalent to malicious action. Pilate's inaction is used as a moral example in Christianity but it's the pharisees and Judas who get the most "blame" (??I always found this religious stuff puzzling despite being a Catholic...) and not Pilate.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    In your opinion? You know how things work here, please elaborate.

    I'm no expert but I recall there is an affirmative action program in terms of university entry and govt. jobs for the lower castes.

    A time article (...actually sort of illustrates the opposition the [democratic] Indian govt. would run into if it pushed too agressively on these issues)

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1198102,00.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India
    GuanYin wrote: »
    I don't know, I live in a supposed democratic state where opposing democracy in any way, even as a thought exercise, gets you labelled a communist as common courtesy and probably a traitor and terrorist as an extreme.

    That isn't democracy in action, but I can only vote for one of two almost identical parties to try and change that.

    On the other hand, how many times do you guys have to vote on European treaties? Until you get it right?

    As I said, we operate in some grotesque form of democracy, but unfortunately not real democracy.

    Problems with particular democracies do not mean that there is some better anti-democratic system which is going improve things. In your examples I do not think one needs to be a genius to see where adjusting the existing systems (while preserving democracy, and in fact making it work better) can improve things.
    Thinking up some new & improved system from scratch minus the important "democracy" element would seem to require genius and/or madness.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    Why would you pick India?
    You'd rather be subject to a caste system than socialism (even if it is under communist authoritarianizm). What is the point in having a voice if you're such an outcast noone cares, listens or even wants to acknowledge you exist?

    Is China that communist? Its pretty capitalist now and very unequal in its distribution of wealth.
    Wouldn't the wealth you have (and status it gives you) be just as important as in India even if it has no "caste" system? There is always an elite of wealthy and powerful people even in communist states, how far removed they are from "us" varies.
    In the next galaxy like China & India -or just another country (Ireland).
    I'd rather be poor and have a small voice (when people are looking for votes...) and have even a little bit of a shield from excesses of power and wealth provided by law than be poor and have no voice, subject to the whims of autocrats.

    I probably don't know enough to choose but you did ask so I tried to answer from little knowledge.
    I suppose I know a little more about India from working with people from there. You mention the holdovers of the caste system to them and it embarrasses them (even if their parents & relatives may wish them to marry someone of x caste/family etc). I think someone of the correct age, career & bank balance was far more important in reality - just like here even if people do not mention it. Is that a good sign for the future?


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