Palestinian child shot dead by Israeli soldiers

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

Not really that simple though. From the sounds of it the crowd were attacking the soldiers. Also, killing as part of a military force under orders isn't murder at all.

The crowd were fleeing into the village when they fired live rounds, its in the article. The IDF has capabilities to disperse the crowd, using non-lethal means and did so and the crowd went back to there village. The boy was as per the article shot in the village.

From the article in the op again:

“Protesters arrived at the wall’s construction site outside the village and the soldiers started to open fire with rubber bullets and tear gas. This pushed the protesters back into the village where the boy was hit by a live bullet in his chest,” he said.

Explain to me how shooting fleeing protesters, and killing one of them isn't murder? It looks like murder to me.

Also, I can't quite believe your using military orders as an excuse for the murder of a child. You can murder someone under military orders, this is well established under international law, last I checked.

dlofnep

Bubs101 wrote: »

Not really that simple though. From the sounds of it the crowd were attacking the soldiers. Also, killing as part of a military force under orders isn't murder at all.

So they were ordered to shoot a 9 year old child in the chest?

Bubs101

It doesn't say that they targeted him anywhere. I'm pretty sure that no matter how evil the Israeli's are portrayed in the media one of them isn't going to shoot a kid in the chest for no reason whatsoever on purpose. It was in all likely hood either an accident or a bulley meant for somebody else

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

It doesn't say that they targeted him anywhere. I'm pretty sure that no matter how evil the Israeli's are portrayed in the media one of them isn't going to shoot a kid in the chest for no reason whatsoever on purpose. It was in all likely hood either an accident or a bulley meant for somebody else

The protesters were pushed back to the village by tear gas and rubber bullets and then they used live rounds. Firing live rounds into a crowd that was getting the hell out of the place after the IDF used tear gas etc is murder. The protesters at this point were not threat to the IDF soldiers, so to use live rounds at his point was going to result in civilian deaths.

Bubs101

wes wrote: »

The protesters at this point were not threat to the IDF soldiers, so to use live rounds at his point was going to result in civilian deaths.

Given their history Palestinian protestors are always a threat. The Israelis are well versed in their tactics and may have gotten suspicious. We don't know what happened but I think it's safe to suspect that
1. During a time of ceasefire an israeli soldier is not going to shoot a Palestinian without a reason
2. That it's unlikely he was aiming for a 9 year old child

I'm not an Israeli sympathiser, quite the opposite but people are making this out to be far more significant and evil than it was. I would be 99% sure that it was not what I would consider a murder

nacho libre

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This thread is just being used as another opportunity by the usual suspects to beat up on Israel.

Does a new thread get opened when an Israeli citizen is killed by a rocket attack?

It would be refreshing if everybody could condemn the murder of children whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. it seems in this particular thread some are more interested in deflecting blame due to their in built prejudice. Which really is disgraceful as the inference is that Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian life.

Zulu

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that no matter how evil the Israeli's are portrayed in the media one of them isn't going to shoot a kid in the chest for no reason whatsoever on purpose....

And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bulldoze through civilian houses with people in them, or shoot unarmed reporters, or call in airstrikes on civilian houses....

...oh, no. Wait. They did.

Bubs101

Zulu wrote: »

And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bulldoze through civilian houses with people in them, or shoot unarmed reporters, or call in airstrikes on civilian houses....

...oh, no. Wait. They did.

But it's a back and forth thing. They do those kind of things out of in built suspicions of attacks. If the Palestinians use civilians as weapons then civilians become a target

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

Given their history Palestinian protestors are always a threat. The Israelis are well versed in their tactics and may have gotten suspicious. We don't know what happened but I think it's safe to suspect that

What tactics? Throwing rocks? There has been an ongoing protest in Nilin and the protesters had been pushed back when they used live rounds. So it doesn't matter what they suspected, the protesters were dispersing. To fire live rounds at them at this point and kill someone is murder.

Bubs101 wrote: »

1. During a time of ceasefire an israeli soldier is not going to shoot a Palestinian without a reason

The Palestinians were not firing at them at any point. Some threw rocks, but the use of live ammunition was on people who were back in the village after being dispersed.

They IDF were not returning fire from anyone and shot at people who were going back to the village.

Bubs101 wrote: »

2. That it's unlikely he was aiming for a 9 year old child

So what? They fired into a crowd of fleeing protesters and killed a child, that is murder.

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm not an Israeli sympathiser, quite the opposite but people are making this out to be far more significant and evil than it was. I would be 99% sure that it was not what I would consider a murder

Firing live ammunition into a crowd of protesters who were dispersing and killing someone is murder. There was no need to use live ammunition against a dispersing crowd. Especially when they had non-lethal means at there disposal and those were working as the protesters were dispersing.

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

But it's a back and forth thing. They do those kind of things out of in built suspicions of attacks. If the Palestinians use civilians as weapons then civilians become a target

Sorry, but murdering civilians is wrong and targeting them when there dispersing is even worse. They were dispersing, when the IDF fired. What threat could the pose at this point?

In fact Hamas use the same excuse, that Israel trains most of there citizens as soldiers, so that make them all targets, which is an excuse for murder pure and simple.

Zulu

Bubs101 wrote: »

But it's a back and forth thing. They do those kind of things out of in built suspicions of attacks. If the Palestinians use civilians as weapons then civilians become a target

OK you are right. It's ok to shoot unarmed children dead. My bad. :rolleyes:

Bubs101

wes wrote: »

Sorry, but murdering civilians is wrong and targeting them when there dispersing is even worse.

In fact Hamas use the same excuse, that Israel trains most of there citizens as soldiers, so that make them all targets, which is an excuse for murder pure and simple.

I'm not excusing any murder. Personally speaking, I don't think that it's fair to label a soldier who kills somebody by accident while on duty a murderer. They're different things. Neither side is right in the global scale of things but to their people they are. The fact is that Hamas does use the disguise of the civilian to kill Israeli's. Israel has to do something to try and stop it but it's a really difficult situation to which their is no solution. If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

The Saint

Just for some perspective:

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories : 948
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces in Isreal : 3

Total: 951



Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories : 39
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in Isreal : 84

Total: 123

Bubs101 wrote: »

If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

I think you're getting the balance of deaths mixed up:

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces : 4,815

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians: 723

nacho libre

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm not excusing any murder. Personally speaking, I don't think that it's fair to label a soldier who kills somebody by accident while on duty a murderer. They're different things. Neither side is right in the global scale of things but to their people they are. The fact is that Hamas does use the disguise of the civilian to kill Israeli's. Israel has to do something to try and stop it but it's a really difficult situation to which their is no solution. If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

I think it is fair to label him/her a murderer when he/she fires live ammo at a crowd that is dispering.

Bubs101

nacho libre wrote: »

I think it is fair to label him/her a murderer when he/she fires live ammo at a crowd that is dispering.

If he was ordered to do so?

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

I'm not excusing any murder. Personally speaking, I don't think that it's fair to label a soldier who kills somebody by accident while on duty a murderer. They're different things.

When they murder a child it is fair. The crowd were dispersing and they used live rounds. They had capability to disperse the crowd with tear gas and rubber bullets and chose to use live rounds, even after the non-lethal means were working to disperse the crowd.

Here is another example of IDF brutality in the Nilin:
Story behind the shot protester and the teen who caught it on film

This is the kind of thing that the IDF does and firing on a dispersing group of protesters with live round killing a child is not an accident, its murder imho.

Bubs101 wrote: »

Neither side is right in the global scale of things but to their people they are. The fact is that Hamas does use the disguise of the civilian to kill Israeli's. Israel has to do something to try and stop it but it's a really difficult situation to which their is no solution.

This is in the West Bank btw and the people were dispersing and going back to the village when they were fired upon and were no threat to the soldiers, who were incidentally the aggressors, who were in the process of stealing Palestinian land and violating international law. No Israeli civilians were in danger (as the IDF were in Palestine) in this situation and the IDF were hardly in danger from a dispersing group of protesters.

Bubs101 wrote: »

If I were in Israeli government, I'd prefer one dead Palestinian who was suspected by soldiers, people who are trained to spot them, to be a suicide bomber than 10+ dead Israeli citizens. They are trying to protect themselves

Complete nonsense. The IDF soldiers were in Palestine, building a wall on Palestinian land, basically stealing more Palestinian land. The wall would work just fine being built on there own land. They shot dispersing protesters. There is no excuse for this. They were not defending themselves, they were engaged in the aggressive theft of Palestinian land. These people were in there own nation protesting a foreign force building a wall to steal there land and were fired with live rounds when they were dispersing. This is murder pure and simple.

The child killed was going back to his village and not approaching soldiers, Israeli civilians were not in danger as this was in Palestine. At this point you are making excuses are engaged in argument that doesn't represent this particular situation at all.

BlaasForRafa

nacho libre wrote: »

It would be refreshing if everybody could condemn the murder of children whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. it seems in this particular thread some are more interested in deflecting blame due to their in built prejudice. Which really is disgraceful as the inference is that Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian life.

Did I say that I didn't condemn it?

What I'm sick of is people jumping on the anti-israeli bandwagon who seem to care more about palestinian lives than about israeli lives. I didn't see anyone condemn the killing of an israeli pensioner killed last month by a rocket attack (which the palestinians celebrated by giving out sweets to kids....I don't see israelis going out onto the streets celebrating when a palestinian is killed)

I didn't see anyone here condemning the killers of an israeli worker in a paint factory killed 2 months ago by a palestinian mortar bomb....what did he do to offend the palestinians?

The death of a child is terrible but the way the palestinian leadership use this type of thing for propoganda purposes is sickening too....and even worse judging by this thread it works too.

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

If he was ordered to do so?

Orders do not excuse murder of civilians. This is well established under international law. The fact you are trying to present this as a defense is just astonishing.

Bubs101

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What I'm sick of is people jumping on the anti-israeli bandwagon who seem to care more about palestinian lives than about israeli lives. I didn't see anyone condemn the killing of an israeli pensioner killed last month by a rocket attack (which the palestinians celebrated by giving out sweets to kids....I don't see israelis going out onto the streets celebrating when a palestinian is killed)

+1

wes wrote: »

Orders do not excuse murder of civilians. This is well established under international law. The fact you are trying to present this as a defense is just astonishing.

Perhaps you can show me where then. Anyway, I said earlier that I wasn't defending their actions but most of you here are being far too single minded.

Just out of interest, why do you think the soldier shot?

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Did I say that I didn't condemn it?
What I'm sick of is people jumping on the anti-israeli bandwagon who seem to care more about palestinian lives than about israeli lives. I didn't see anyone condemn the killing of an israeli pensioner killed last month by a rocket attack (which the palestinians celebrated by giving out sweets to kids....I don't see israelis going out onto the streets celebrating when a palestinian is killed)

Did you post a thread on it? I am sure people would have condemned such a terrible murder. In fact I will condemn this terrible murder right now.

However, I will point out people are trying to blame the childs parents etc for what happened in this thread.

Also Israel celebrates there independence day every year, which I might add is also a celebration of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I didn't see anyone here condemning the killers of an israeli worker in a paint factory killed 2 months ago by a palestinian mortar bomb....what did he do to offend the palestinians?

Well I will condemn it right there and now, it is a terrible murder. However, I did not see a thread on it and I would have condemned it if is existed.

Also btw, just because someone did not start a thread does not mean people don't condemn it. There are plenty of Palestinian deaths that no one starts a thread about and that doesn't mean people don't condemn it either. There are thread started on Palestinian violence here as well, so to pretend that such threads have never existed and to accuse posters of not condemning Palestinian violence is a straw man, as many have done so in other threads.

There are plenty of threads on the Israel/Palestine conflict on this board and plenty of posters have condemn violence against Israeli civilians.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The death of a child is terrible but the way the palestinian leadership use this type of thing for propoganda purposes is sickening too....and even worse judging by this thread it works too.

Have they used this for propaganda at all? I have only seen news reports from Western web sites and news papers.

Btw, what propaganda from the Palestinian leadership has shown up on this thread, are Western news papers now part of Palestinian propaganda?

Are Israeli deaths reported by western news agencies propaganda from the Israeli leadership?

stovelid

Dead Palestinian kids are always the money shot in the 'pornographized' conflicts beloved of the Irish left. Blown-up Israeli citizens are really just dull old sexectra reruns in comparison.

nacho libre

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Did I say that I didn't condemn it?

What I'm sick of is people jumping on the anti-israeli bandwagon who seem to care more about palestinian lives than about israeli lives. I didn't see anyone condemn the killing of an israeli pensioner killed last month by a rocket attack (which the palestinians celebrated by giving out sweets to kids....I don't see israelis going out onto the streets celebrating when a palestinian is killed)

I didn't see anyone here condemning the killers of an israeli worker in a paint factory killed 2 months ago by a palestinian mortar bomb....what did he do to offend the palestinians?

The death of a child is terrible but the way the palestinian leadership use this type of thing for propoganda purposes is sickening too....and even worse judging by this thread it works too.

Well, in your previous post you didn't explicitly state that you did. If you had made a thread about those Israeli deaths i certainly would have condemned them. I can't speak for others here but i don't condone the murder of civilians whether they are Palestinian or Israeli.

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

Perhaps you can show me where then. Anyway, I said earlier that I wasn't defending their actions but most of you here are being far too single minded.

Well a child has been shot, and the situation he was shot in make it murder. People are hardly being single minded.

**EDIT**
Posted wring link, here is the right one:
Nuremberg Defense
**END EDIT**

I will repeat that I find it astonishing your using the whole "orders" thing as an excuse. All I can say is wow.

Bubs101 wrote: »

Just out of interest, why do you think the soldier shot?

Not a clue. There is no information to suggest what the soldier was thinking available.

nacho libre

Bubs101 wrote: »

If he was ordered to do so?

No of course not. His/her actions were completely justified in that case

Afterall, the german soliders at the concentration camps were just following orders too

El Stuntman

these threads are hilarious in their utter predicatability and usually end with someone (devoid of any sense of irony) comparing Israelis to Nazis

anyone care to offer any solutions or even to move somewhat out of their entrenched pro-Palestinian (seems to be more of them for some reason) or pro-Israeli positions?

Sand

Dead Palestinian kids are always the money shot in the 'pornographized' conflicts

This is true.

Assuming a kid was actually killed here [ still no confirmation of a body or autopsy....] and its not just blatant propaganda....



If you were involved in a violent protest facing off against armed IDF soldiers who you view as monsters quite capable of murdering Palestinian kids and you see Palestinian kids involved in the protest do you

A) Give them the thumbs up, great to see them become politically active so young....

Send them the **** home out of harms way? Dont they know how bloody dangerous the situation is?

C) Call your friendly Palestinian media to let them know they might have a money shot shortly?

Think hard....

Also Wes, a couple of questions:

You say

They shot dispersing protesters. There is no excuse for this. They were not defending themselves

You base this on the report. Thats weird because the report says....

Hammad Hossam Mussa, believed to be around nine years old, was mortally wounded by an Israeli bullet as protestors threw rocks near the West Bank close to the village of Nilin.

I.E. the soldiers were not firing on a peaceful, dispersing crowd - they were firing on violent crowd that was stoning them. Either the boy was involved in the stone throwing, or was caught by a stray bullet. Seeing as the soldiers were under attack, its hardly likely even the worst mother****er of the lot took time out to deliberately target and unarmed child minding his own business.

“Protesters arrived at the wall’s construction site outside the village and the soldiers started to open fire with rubber bullets and tear gas. This pushed the protesters back into the village where the boy was hit by a live bullet in his chest,” he said.

Youve quoted this alot....seeing as you mustve have been there to speak with such authority on exactly how it went down can you tell me how far exactly the village is from the IDF positions? Would a stones throw summarise the distance? As according to the report you quote the boy was shot in the village, whilst the crowd of protestors were stoning the IDF?

Just for some perspective:

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories : 948
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces in Isreal : 3

Total: 951



Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories : 39
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in Isreal : 84

Total: 123

Man, Team Israel is totally whupping Team Palestine...theyre going to need a hell of a half time talk to turn this around.

Mayo Exile

Originally posted by El Stuntman: anyone care to offer any solutions or even to move somewhat out of their entrenched pro-Palestinian (seems to be more of them for some reason) or pro-Israeli positions?

Most probable immediate solution: two states based on borders as existed at 4 June 1967 (day before six day war). All Israeli settlers to leave West Bank and East Jerusalem. East Jerusalem to be the capital of Palestinian Arab entity. Western Wall and Al-Aqsa Mosque - some sort of Free Zone.

Theoretical ideal solution: single multi-cultural state encompassing all of Israel/Palestine area. All refugees who fled since 1947 allowed to return (both sides). It a great statement against all types of racism world wide and would be a true monument to Auschwitz etc.

Sand

these threads are hilarious in their utter predicatability and usually end with someone (devoid of any sense of irony) comparing Israelis to Nazis

I can shake things up a bit by comparing the Nazis to the Israelis?

anyone care to offer any solutions or even to move somewhat out of their entrenched pro-Palestinian (seems to be more of them for some reason) or pro-Israeli positions?

Solutions arent important. Whats important is to decide who was right or wrong back in 1946.....get with the program!

BlaasForRafa

El Stuntman wrote: »

these threads are hilarious in their utter predicatability and usually end with someone (devoid of any sense of irony) comparing Israelis to Nazis

anyone care to offer any solutions or even to move somewhat out of their entrenched pro-Palestinian (seems to be more of them for some reason) or pro-Israeli positions?

I've stated on another thread that Israel should completely pull out of the west bank, all settlers...everything and aid be provided to the west bank and gaza to pull them out of poverty. All ME countries should recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist and cease funding and helping terrorist movements fighting Israel and FATAH, Al-Aqsa and other terrrorist groups would disarm.
As regards the wall, in a tactical sense it has been very effective, there have been far less suicide bombings since it was started. If the above conditions were followed through then the wall should be pulled down and there would be no need for it.

The entrenched positions held by some on this thread where Israel and the IDF is to blame for everything just dosen't help matters one little bit.

Sand

Oh yeah and Dlofnep....

Look, this is typical. Get attacked for trying to highlight the death of an innocent child as an attack on Israel.

Stop with the bollocks. You posted this in Politics. You didnt post it as a call for a moment of meditation on the tragic loss of a young life. You posted it for political propaganda.

So again, enough with the ****e.