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finbarrk

The whole thing is total bull****. It looks like they want to justify their expences and wages. And they can go back to Venezeula or Mexico or somewhere and feel good about what they have done to compeditors who have worked their butts off to be here.
As if you could win an Olympic medal by putting a bit of paste on a horses legs.
Grow up lads.
Of course the goody goodys will have a reply.
Which any of them probarbly couldnt jump a barrell anyway.

convert

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, but seriously Seifer, as other posters have mentioned, your attitude is becoming a little trying.

Borderfox

Excert from Equi-Block blurb from website

"Equi-Block is the number one equine topical pain reliever sold worldwide. The reason for this is simple, effectiveness and results! Racehorse Strength Equi-Block blocks more pain, decreases more inflammation, works faster, lasts longer (most horses receive up to 24 hours of pain relief), requires less product and less applications to achieve desired results! Racehorse Strength Equi-Block will not scurf or blister and will absolutely not test positive"

When I cycled we had a list of all products that were on the banned list and therefore ignorance was no defence

jhegarty

Borderfox wrote: »

and will absolutely not test positive

Everyone interviewed today doesn't seem to know the difference between "will not test positive" and is legal and allowed...

nesf

skink wrote: »

if its on the banned list it can be tested.

Eh, the IOC bans substances it can't test for. They, and other groups, use other methods to try and catch cheats out, like random searches of homes of athletes and coaches for EPOs/blood doping equipment, so it can very much be on the banned list and not tested for.

Shockingly the ideal is still one of an honour system in some ways.

KJ_2008

convert wrote: »

It's yet another case of we'll support you when you're doing well but we'll go to pains to hit you hard when you're down, which is all too prevalent in Ireland in every aspect, not just sport.

Don't you mean we'll go to pains to hit you hard when you're discovered to be a cheat?

togster

I usually go to great pains to defend people like this. He is representing my country at the olympics in a sport that i live for. It is precisely for this reason that i am angered by these events.

If a product contains a substance on the banned list, it should not have been administered. If he had used it before or not is immaterial. If there was a test to detect it or not it is immaterial. You cannot assume that becuase the manufacturers state it won't show up in tests that it's safe to use. The ingredient is on the banned list.

Lynch had the HSI and a team of vets behind him. Do these people not know how to use the internet and google all the products they use? He is competing in the olympics ffs. Do some research, be more vigilant in researching your products.

Surely HSI has enough brain power to produce a list for riders of products which are safe to use.

There is no excuse for what happened here and it pains me to say it. It's a sad day for irish showjumping and whether he intended to or not he has damaged my sport. Don't go to the fcuking olympics and wear a green jacket if you can't be arsed to follow the rules and check everything. If your horse is in pain or stiff, then withdraw. Don't fcuking rub a cream with a banned ingredient into his back. You are representing your country at the olympics, and in doing so you have a responsibility to everyone to play by the rules.

MDFM

togster wrote: »

I usually go to great pains to defend people like this. He is representing my country at the olympics in a sport that i live for. It is precisely for this reason that i am angered by these events.

If a product contains a substance on the banned list, it should not have been administered. If he had used it before or not is immaterial. If there was a test to detect it or not it is immaterial. You cannot assume that becuase the manufacturers state it won't show up in tests that it's safe to use. The ingredient is on the banned list.

Lynch had the HSI and a team of vets behind him. Do these people not know how to use the internet and google all the products they use? He is competing in the olympics ffs. Do some research, be more vigilant in researching your products.

Surely HSI has enough brain power to produce a list for riders of products which are safe to use.

There is no excuse for what happened here and it pains me to say it. It's a sad day for irish showjumping and whether he intended to or not he has damaged my sport. Don't go to the fcuking olympics and wear a green jacket if you can't be arsed to follow the rules and check everything. If your horse is in pain or stiff, then withdraw. Don't fcuking rub a cream with a banned ingredient into his back. You are representing your country at the olympics, and in doing so you have a responsibility to everyone to play by the rules.

100% agree with you here, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was fuming last night watching them on the tv at the press conference. They looked like fools. Lynch saying he's being using the equi-block all the time, never had a problem with it and then Swail saying he didnt know Lynch was using the product. Are they not all a team? Its the responsibilty of each of them, esp Lynch, to know exactly what he can and can't give the horse and for Swail as team vet to know the same? I believe there is no excuse for what happened and they have scarred the sport yet again, just as we thought we'd recovered from the last drugs scandal.
I'm sorry Lynch was disqualified but at least he didnt compete and win a medal and then have to hand it back like before. He's responsible for his own actions and he should be banned.
More so, I'm sorry that Robert Splaine since taking on his job as team manager has had nothing but stress and strain and fc*k ups along the way, from riders who are supposedly professionals. He is a decent man who's worked hard to try to put and keep teams together all the while putting up with doping scandals and bickering and internal politics. He must be fairly p***ed off now to be involved in this. I wouldnt blame him if he walked away from it all now.
I'm also sorry aswell that as a nation reowned at one stage for breeding, producing sport horses that we are now famous for doping horses. For the people and organisations large and small throughout the country who every year work hard to put shows together and secure sponsorship etc its also an embarrassment.
I hope our boxers can go out today and bring us some pride so we can maybe redeem ourselves on the world stage for doing some good.

fits

Yes I agree. I have absolutely no sympathy for Lynch today. He knew he was administering a banned substance, I am absolutely sure of that.

He has brought the sport here into disrepute again. I'm fecking sick of the lot of them.

togster

20/08/08 HORSE Sport Ireland (HSI) was informed by the world equestrian governing body, the FEI, at 2.15 pm Hong Kong time today (Thursday), that Irish Olympic rider Denis Lynch's horse 'Lantinus' had tested positive for a banned substance and that as a result he would be suspended from taking part in tonight's show jumping final.

Denis Lynch and Horse Sport Ireland officials attended a preliminary hearing with the FEI a short time ago and were informed that the substance found in the horse was called capsaicin.

At the tribunal the FEI indicated that this substance was an ingredient in some products in regular use. Subsequently it was identified by Denis Lynch as an ingredient in a product called "Equi-block" used by him on his horse. Equi-block is a product used in similar circumstances to 'Deep Heat' used on humans and Denis Lynch explained to the tribunal that he commonly applies Equiblock to the horse's lower back prior to exercise.


Following this preliminary hearing today the FEI informed Denis Lynch that he remained suspended for tonight's competition.

The FEI have subsequently confirmed that three other riders due to jump in tonight's final at Hong Kong have also been suspended as a result of the same substance being found in their horses.

Horse Sport Ireland has confirmed that they submitted a urine sample from the horse to a voluntary screening testing process made available by the FEI on the horse's arrival in Hong Kong and the results of this test were negative.

The horse has also been tested on numerous occasions, including following many of its recent victories, and has tested negative on all these occasions.

http://www.horsesportireland.ie/

Someone probably posted this already. One of the lamest statements i've read for a while.

I really hope they get taken to pieces for this. It's bigger than Lynch alone.

A failure of monumental proportions by HSI and the vets. Perhaps they will re-think their policies now and actually do something to stop this happening again.

irishtimes.com

From the Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0822/1219355277589.html

irishtimes.com wrote:

Showjumper may get long ban after positive drug test

IRISH SHOWJUMPER Denis Lynch could face a lengthy ban from the sport after his horse tested positive for a prohibited substance at the Olympic Games in the latest drugs controversy to hit Irish sport.

Protesting he had not knowingly done anything wrong, Lynch admitted yesterday he may have made a serious mistake in using an over-the-counter product Equi-Block on his horse Lantinus.

The 32-year-old was removed from the individual showjumping event at the Games yesterday when Lantinus tested positive to the Class A prohibited substance, capsaicin, a derivative of chilli pepper.

"I'm shattered. That's it. Shattered," said Lynch yesterday.

"I've been using it for years on horses. It's been effective. If I thought it was a threat to me there's no way I would have used it."

The result is viewed as deeply embarrassing for Irish equestrianism, which is still haunted by the memories of showjumper Cian O'Connor being stripped of his gold medal after Waterford Crystal tested positive for a sedative four years ago in Athens.

O'Connor's breach of the rules resulted in a three-month ban, but the prohibited substance found in Waterford Crystal was not seen to be performance-enhancing.

Lynch's horse, a 10-year-old which is ranked number one in the world, was one of four to return positive A sample results yesterday following blood and urine collections taken on Monday.

The seriousness of the finding was expressed by International Equestrian Federation (FEI) vet Dr Paul Farrington, who confirmed that capsaicin is considered a performance-enhancing drug. It has always been considered an illegal substance but the technique to discover its use has only recently been developed.

"It is a forbidden product in terms of preventing pain relief," said Dr Farrington. "It can make horses jump better and enhances the performance of the horse."

The result from the B sample, which almost always confirms the A result, is expected to be known tomorrow. Once the result of that sample is known evidence and written submissions will be requested from the rider and a three-member panel of the FEI will be appointed.

It is this panel that will make a decision on the applicable sanctions for the Irish rider, who was tipped to take a medal in yesterday afternoon's competition in Hong Kong.

"I can't really say anymore," added Lynch. "We came here [to a press conference] as we have nothing to hide and have done nothing wrong."

Lynch said he commonly applied Equi-Block to the horse's lower back prior to exercise.

Vice-president of the FEI Sven Holmberg also suggested that the use of capsaicin may have been systematic as horses from Brazil, Germany and Norway also tested positive for the drug. They were also withdrawn from the competition.

"This is a serious blow to the sport," said Holmberg. "We are aware of the potential implications this has for equestrian sport and showjumping. The four tested positive for the same substance. I don't know if we can call it a trend but it does add to the seriousness of the case."

Olympic Council of Ireland chef de mission Dermot Henihan also made a statement on behalf of the Irish Olympic team.

"We wish to express our bitter disappointment. We were all looking forward to a night of success but our hopes were dashed. It happened. It shouldn't happen and we're disappointed. The simple fact is the horse is eliminated. It is a bitter pill that we have to swallow and move on."

If the B sample confirms the A finding Lynch's future will hinge on whether the FEI decides that the drug was administered benignly in the way the commonly-used "deep heat" menthol rub is used by athletes or more sinisterly as a method of hyper-sensitising the horse's legs so they lift higher when jumping.

Like the drug found in Waterford Crystal, capsaicin is also used in the treatment of humans. It is commonly administered to relieve pain in people suffering from osteoarthritis, shingles and diabetes.

nellybelly

well said, togster.

Surely this is something which now warrants a very serious response. It has clearly been happening for far too long (by ignorance or foul-play). The hope that lessons would be learnt of their own accord and with a sense of honour and sportsmanship has obviously been misplaced.

"Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me" - The Irish people have been fooled twice at the olympics, not to mention JK's recent incident.

togster

So many things are wrong here.

1. The apparent ignorance by Lynch of the fact that his product did not contain a banned substance, and the failure on behalf HSI in controlling what Lynch was usung prior to competition. Lynch says he used this product many times before. Surely HSI should have requested a list of commonly used substances.

2. The fact that 4 other horses also tested poitive.

3. The fact that untill recently the drug could not be detected.

4. The fact that the prohibited ingredient is allegedly (:rolleyes:) used to "hyper-sensitize" the horses legs to encourage sharpness.

5. The fact that Lynch said he applied this cream to the horses back just prior to warm up. What back condition could warrent the application of an anti-inflammatory/pain-killer? And it's subsequent application would not enhance a horses ability to jump?

This reeks. And if the B sample tests positive, he should never be allowed compete again.

SanNJay

Firstly, the trainers, vets even Denis himself didn't even need the internet to look up this. They most likely had a list of banned substances - written on paper in front of them. Could they not check each ingredient off the list. It's hardly that difficult.

Also,

If the horse had back trouble he shouldn't off been competing. Isn't that what happened Peppermill in the team event. Instead of putting a banned substance on the horse why didn't he get it massaged or treated legally.

I imagine the facilities in the Olympics are second to none.

What really annoys me is, Ireland has some of the best horses in the world, were known for it. Why can't we just get riders that will show the true potential of the horse and not brand us with these inexcusable offences. If you don't win, then fine, I’d prefer to loose honorably than be in the situation he's in now.

SanNJay

My understanding of it is that one sample is taken and split into A and B so technically the B sample is 99.9% the same as the A sample.

I heard that on the radio yesterday.

If i tell it wrong i heard it wrong.

Sandra

fits

yup. This reeks to high heaven.

And it looks like the use of this substance was going on wholesale.

Dodge

SanNJay wrote: »

My understanding of it is that one sample is taken and split into A and B so technically the B sample is 99.9% the same as the A sample

Yep, its the same sample. The only test twice to see if the A test was faulty

skink

We were discussing it today in work( i work in the lab where samples are tested in ireland) and the said it must have been a tip off to some extent, or else they are carrying out an unimaginable amount of tests on the samples, also the test for capsaicin has been around for about 3 years now, I think it just goes to prove how piss poor an organisation the HSI and SJAI are, i am loathe to give them such large membership fees every year, for f*ck all return, hopefully this will cause a shake up.

Also just to add, i doubt Splaine is no angel either, i would not be at pains to defend anyone present on the irish contingent in hong kong.

togster

It's all over the Swedish press. "Another Irish rider fails test". Have been talking to friends involved/not involved in the horsey world and they cannot understand how this could happen again. Already got some jibes about my current good form here, along the lines of "they'll be testing you next". And tbh i can't blame them.

So screw HSI and the piss-poor procedures they have in operation there. Screw the vets and screw the clique and politics that has riddled the SJAI and other equestrian organisations in Ireland for the last number of decades. We need a cull. They have further tarnished the Irish riders name abroad. They have made my job harder and less enjoyable. As if 4 years ago wan't bad enough, this is actually worse. There is no defense, no possible cause other than negligence/cheating.

Why buy an Irish horse now? Why support the Irish horse industry if they can't even get the fcukin olympics right?

I'm sorry for the rant. People outside of the sport may not understand the implications of all this. It has made me sad and angry. I'll bow out now before i say something bad.

carlybabe1

There is no excuse for what happened here and it pains me to say it. It's a sad day for irish showjumping and whether he intended to or not he has damaged my sport. Don't go to the fcuking olympics and wear a green jacket if you can't be arsed to follow the rules and check everything. If your horse is in pain or stiff, then withdraw. Don't fcuking rub a cream with a banned ingredient into his back. You are representing your country at the olympics, and in doing so you have a responsibility to everyone to play by the rules.[/quote]

I hate to play devils advocate here, I'm just as ashamed and embarressed as anyone, having said that heres a theory to think about, and be honest with yourself when yis are thinkin about it....... If after all your hard work, dedication and sacrifices you found yourself at the life changing event of the olympics and you were in with a good chance of doing your country proud only to find your horse in pain, can you honestly say that you wouldn't use pain killers on him and hope for the best?????? especially if the pain relief stated on the pack WILL NOT TEST POSITIVE!!!!!! Or would you bow out gracefully not nowing if you would ever get the chance again. I couldnt honestly say whether I would or not..............:(

SanNJay

carlybabe1 wrote: »

There is no excuse for what happened here and it pains me to say it. It's a sad day for irish showjumping and whether he intended to or not he has damaged my sport. Don't go to the fcuking olympics and wear a green jacket if you can't be arsed to follow the rules and check everything. If your horse is in pain or stiff, then withdraw. Don't fcuking rub a cream with a banned ingredient into his back. You are representing your country at the olympics, and in doing so you have a responsibility to everyone to play by the rules.

I hate to play devils advocate here, I'm just as ashamed and embarressed as anyone, having said that heres a theory to think about, and be honest with yourself when yis are thinkin about it....... If after all your hard work, dedication and sacrifices you found yourself at the life changing event of the olympics and you were in with a good chance of doing your country proud only to find your horse in pain, can you honestly say that you wouldn't use pain killers on him and hope for the best?????? especially if the pain relief stated on the pack WILL NOT TEST POSITIVE!!!!!! Or would you bow out gracefully not nowing if you would ever get the chance again. I couldnt honestly say whether I would or not..............:([/quote]


you make a good final point but he still dosn't get to know, and now he is tarnished, he will never know if he could of won it and he will be faced with abuse everywhere he goes. Noone will be proud of him, everyone will think he is a failure. He's tarnished the sport for Irish olympians and his act was 'sickening' as quoted from the radio.

Personally, yes i can say I would not compete if i had got that far and then my horse had an injury. Firstly becuase i would think that i would cause my horse more harm by riding him if he was in pain - would it not? what use is a gold medal and a broke down horse after it - all your hard work would be gone either way.

Sandra

fits

If the horse was in discomfort I'm sure there were a gazillion other ways of treating it. There is absolutely no excuse for using a product that clearly states it contains a banned substance if indeed, thats what he was doing.

MDFM

carlybabe1 wrote: »

There is no excuse for what happened here and it pains me to say it. It's a sad day for irish showjumping and whether he intended to or not he has damaged my sport. Don't go to the fcuking olympics and wear a green jacket if you can't be arsed to follow the rules and check everything. If your horse is in pain or stiff, then withdraw. Don't fcuking rub a cream with a banned ingredient into his back. You are representing your country at the olympics, and in doing so you have a responsibility to everyone to play by the rules.

I hate to play devils advocate here, I'm just as ashamed and embarressed as anyone, having said that heres a theory to think about, and be honest with yourself when yis are thinkin about it....... If after all your hard work, dedication and sacrifices you found yourself at the life changing event of the olympics and you were in with a good chance of doing your country proud only to find your horse in pain, can you honestly say that you wouldn't use pain killers on him and hope for the best?????? especially if the pain relief stated on the pack WILL NOT TEST POSITIVE!!!!!! Or would you bow out gracefully not nowing if you would ever get the chance again. I couldnt honestly say whether I would or not..............:([/quote]

honestly, well, i wouldnt compete on my horse full stop. maybe i'm just soft, but i value my horse so so much that i would feel so guilty having to put him thro any pain just to jump a fence. there is no excuse now for lynch's ignorance. its a disgrace.

hellbent

It seems the only way to shake up the riders and powers-that-be is to exclude their participation in the next Olympics, at the very least. Possibly divert money /funding from equestrian towards more productive/honest sports, such as boxing.

This episode has brought great shame on Ireland, and there is no excuse for using for using a known banned substance on the basis that it was undetectable all along. If its banned, then don't use it; there's more at stake here than just a stupid rider's reputation.

xt40

"WILL NOT TEST POSITIVE" = NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK FOR "YOU WONT BE CAUGHT"
it was written very prominently on the tub pictured in the paper so he knew what he was doing and deserved to be kicked out

fits

hellbent wrote: »

It seems the only way to shake up the riders and powers-that-be is to exclude their participation in the next Olympics, at the very least. Possibly divert money /funding from equestrian towards more productive/honest sports, such as boxing.

And how would you define productivity? Horses are big business here.

Also I dont know that equestrian sports outside of racing get much funding here anyway. I'm open to correction on that.

This episode has brought great shame on Ireland, and there is no excuse for using for using a known banned substance on the basis that it was undetectable all along. If its banned, then don't use it; there's more at stake here than just a stupid rider's reputation.

No arguments there.

justfortherecor

Ireland's future in Olympic equestrian events has been jeopardised by the shock suspension of showjumper Denis Lynch over a doping offence, Olympic Council of Ireland (OCI) president Pat Hickey has warned.

Hickey said he was appalled by the scandal involving the sportsman, claiming it created serious problems for the Irish equine industry.

The 32-year-old medal hopeful was suspended from the individual showjumping final in Hong Kong yesterday for using a Deep Heat-style product on his horse Lantinus.

But a furious Hickey said it now cast doubt on whether the sport would remain in the country's Olympic programme.

'I've said on the record before I left... that Ireland would not be involved in a doping scandal of any nature,' Mr Hickey told RTÉ Sport's Colm Murray.

'And unfortunately this has now become a huge embarrassment for the country. But I think it's more serious problems for the equestrian sport and also for the horse industry in Ireland because there is a vote next year on which sports will remain in the Olympic programme and which will go out and there seem to be too many situations like this.

'So I think, from what I hear amongst my colleagues, that this sport could be in very serious difficulties for next year's vote whether they remain in the programme or not.'

Hickey also spoke to the Irish Independent.

He said: 'I am sick and tired of our name being dragged through the mud like this. Yesterday, my IOC colleagues were continually making reference to what they called "another scandal for Ireland".

'I was asked before coming to Beijing what my wish for these Games was and I answered that it would be Ireland going through the three weeks without being tainted by any hint of doping.

'We have to get answers. The Irish Sports Council is responsible for the testing of athletes and they do a very good job of it. Procedures are followed rigorously. We want the same standards to apply to equestrian sports and, right now, that doesn't seem the case.

'That, to me, must be serious worry to the whole horse industry in Ireland because it seems to be constantly under the microscope these days.'

'We are not happy with the way the information was recycled to us and the reporting procedure for our Chef de Mission was not adhered to. Believe me, we have some very serious questions to ask.'

Lynch admitted he had used Equi-Block - which contains the banned substance capsaicin - for years to loosen up horses' muscles but denied he did anything knowingly wrong. Three other riders, Germany's Christian Ahlmann, on Coster, Brazil's Bernado Alves, on Chupa Chup, and Norway's Tony Andre Hansen, on Camiro, were also provisionally suspended by the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) for using the same substance.

Damian McDonald, chief executive of Horse Sport Ireland, branded Lynch's withdrawal a devastating blow and a catastrophe but claimed pulling the sport from the Olympics was not the answer.

'Last night wasn't a good night for equestrian sport,' he said.

'We need to look at how we can restore confidence in the sport. I don't think leaving the sport out of the Olympics is the answer. It's an absolute catastrophe for the sport, there's no other way of putting it. It's an absolutely devastating blow for us as well.'

Mr McDonald said Horse Sport Ireland did not know Lynch was using the banned substance.

'You can imagine we were absolutely shocked when we heard. Everybody is at a very low ebb in Hong Kong and it's a dark day for us as well.'

The dope testing result is a devastating blow for the equine sport, which is still haunted by memories of showjumper Cian O'Connor being stripped of his gold medal four years ago in Athens.

Mr Hickey said the OCI was going to conduct a full investigation into the conduct of the Irish showjumping squad and hit out at the team over the lack of information coming from them about the revelations.

'I had to go to the highest level of the International Olympic Committee to find out what was going on and that's not good enough,' Mr Hickey told RTE.

Mr McDonald strongly denied there was any delay in providing information.

'I want to refute totally his suggestion that we didn't report this incident to him.'

Source: RTE

fits

The OCI have been no strangers to scandal themselves. Their PR is absolutely shocking.
I dont know why they drag every dispute through the media.

justfortherecor

It's just Hickey trying to be a populist as usual and, to be fair, such a call would be popular among a large number of the irish public at the moment.

It'll never happen though.

carlybabe1

honestly, well, i wouldnt compete on my horse full stop. maybe i'm just soft, but i value my horse so so much that i would feel so guilty having to put him thro any pain just to jump a fence. there is no excuse now for lynch's ignorance. its a disgrace.[/quote]
I agree with you there, personally I wouldn't have jumped my horse either if it was in pain but its hardly "just a fence" we're talkin the olympics here and showjumping is a livelyhood for all of the competitors. Its all fine takin the honourable route of "no way, I wouldnt do that," but realistically how many of you reckon you're in with a chance in the next 4 yrs???? Will I be bloggin here and braggin that I used to converse with ye on this very site?????? I dont think so, so while I'm pissed off and ashamed AND embarressed about the hole p**s poor carry on I'm rational enough to think we dont know the full story and probably wont till six months from now.....and I'd like to just remind yis all that while Cian was stripped of his gold, it only came out later that it was a SEDATIVE he had given his horse....hardly a perfomance enhancing drug...... different situation i know but i still reckon ill reserve judgement till they get home and we hear the full story. Always the optimist.........:eek: oh one last thing, if we really want to be honest the hole industry is rampant with the drug thing, from dosin the horses with sh%t to dosin yourself to drop weight in a hurry......