Raffle off an Apartment!!

swiss

This is an interesting idea, but I'm dubious as to whether its going to work or not.

Lets assume for a moment you can skirt around the legal issues that have been pointed out with regards to the gaming and lotteries act, either by putting in a question to turn it into a "skill" based event, or some other means - a charitable donation perhaps. Incidentally if you decide to proceed with this idea you may want to check with a solicitor to make sure you are covered legally.

So the question you now need to ask yourself is whether the amount of money you can raise through raffle receipts will either match or exceed the price you can reasonably expect for your appartment on the open market, minus the administration costs of running the raffle. At a tenner a pop, assuming you're seeking in the region of 300k, you'll need 30k people to buy at least one raffle ticket each. As an aside, I'm convinced that property prices, especially those of appartments are still overinflated, so your appartment is probably not "worth" €300k, but this is a debate for another thread perhaps.

Now, you might indeed raise that much cash, and maybe more, but I doubt it. Lets take me as one of your target punters. Since you've mentioned a minimum reserve, I can only assume that right off the bat, I've got at best 1 in 30,000 chance of getting an appartment. (As I have mentioned, it probably isn't worth €300k. Lets face it, if it was, you would have fetched that already on the market.)

Based on the above assessment, I probably wouldn't bother buying a ticket, for the same reason I don't play lotto. The maths don't work out in my favour. You'll probably get lots of people however who do play lotto who will also chip in the tenner to your appartment lotto. But 30,000 people who won't have the same considerations I've just outlined?

Very dubious.

pagekarl

Swiss,

Thanks for the post, and as "dubious" as you may have tried to sound i am alot more positive about the idea after reading you post:eek:.

Think of the lotto, people play it week in week out (some twice a week) and with odds in the millions against, just to win 1or2million in most cases. This "lotto" will be in the region of the 30k-1 odds and if it fethched even a 1% of the interest that the Nat lotto does than I should be able to clear the tickets fairly sharpish, im thinkin market 1st and release then remarket at the mid stage if needed. 2-3months tops to sell in the region of 30k. Optimitic?

As for if the apartment is worth 300k or not? This is not the point as the winner will only be spending €10 (or 20k as bren mentioned) not 300k. But i do agree that house prices are ridiculous in this country. :mad:

miju

pagekarl wrote: »

Profit - It is not my intention to make profits on this raffle however ......

Reason - :mad:Recession:mad: and dont want to sell apartment at a loss which in the current market is more than likely:mad:.

people arent stupid you know. It's also not the heyday of the boom were people had to Q for nights on end in order to get themselves into 30-40 years of debt.

Also, IIRC this was tried by a developer as the start of the housing market
falling and the scheme went flat on its face mainly because it was found to be illegal and he was brought to court and fined.

If want to sell your apartment, put it up at a reasonable price and stop trying to dream up silly schemes.

Axwell

miju wrote: »

Also, IIRC this was tried by a developer as the start of the housing market
falling and the scheme went flat on its face mainly because it was found to be illegal and he was brought to court and fined.

If want to sell your apartment, put it up at a reasonable price and stop trying to dream up silly schemes.

A few posts back someone mentions this guy i think but apparently the result was the Sentenced squashed on appeal by way of defendant paying charitable donation.

Also theres a post about another crowd in the UK currently doing this. I dont think its a silly scheme in fairness if its all done legally as such and more power to him if he can get a good price for his apartment. As with any competition commonly seen on tv shows and in magazines etc there has to be a question no matter how simple a question to make it legal, this is the loophole by which the people in the UK site are managing to get by so im sure you could look into doing the same OP.

Also you wouldnt need to use ebay to sell tickets you could just do it through a basic site and paypal the same as the Uk crowd

Also just to add something regarding the lotto and the post by Swiss above, currently the millionaire raffle is running here and is due to close at the end of the month, tickets for this are 20 quid a pop with only 300,000 being sold in total. There are 2 prizes of a million plus others after that for lower amounts, as of yesterday there was only around 400 odd tickets left for it. I think its safe to say people will risk even 20 quid with the hopes of winning the prize at better odds and if you went about it properly advertising your raffle/competition I feel you would do the same and sell your tickets

argolis

I thought about this some time ago. Firstly, a raffle is illegal unless permission is given by the gardai. You could hold it offshore, but promoting it here is also illegal. The lottery acts are online if you search for them. I don't know if they'd crack down on you for doing a raffle, I think they came down on Barney Curley because his house was valued at £300,000 and he was selling £1,000,000 worth of tickets iirc. There were some other raffles in the 80s downturn which did not go to court though I don't have details. You might get away with selling tickets to match OMSP. Otherwise a "skill-based competition" may also work. I believe it's how the Herald and other newspapers get around it.

Secondly, I agree with bren2002 that stamp duty is a serious consideration. You don't want a student winning who can't afford SD and other costs then having to rerun the draw one or more times. I would calculate the maximum payable SD by any winner and add it in. If it's not all payable the winner will get some cash as well as the house.

Finally, some posters commented on how the odds weren't worth it. I think the attraction would be if the reserve % of tickets sold was set to 80%-90%. So the ticket buyer is getting evens or better odds and an all-in prize, i.e. no SD payable. The seller is getting at least 80%-90% of the OMSP they wanted in a falling market and is the reason these raffles only appear in falling markets like the UK, Spain and now Ireland. Check out http://elpisodeloscincoeuros.com/ as well.

If it was me, I would host on my own website similar to this website. As for the raffle, you ideally need a way to convince people it's genuine and not a fix. I'm open to correction on anything I've written here.

I'd be interested if you went through with this if you'd update us here.

Thanks

ShooterSF

argolis wrote: »

I thought about this some time ago. Firstly, a raffle is illegal unless permission is given by the gardai. You could hold it offshore, but promoting it here is also illegal.

If you read above you'd realize there's a loophole to this. The question I have OP and I have been supportive here, have you planed how much are you planning on spending on marketing and how are you to go about it?

pagekarl

Well the costs where not that great when I thought I could get away with a raffle but now there is website costs and promo, Im thinkin website could be box standard €5k approx then maybe 2 metro adds and maybe one radio add.

Word of mouth would hopefully do the rest. But costs would be covered in the comp collection and also SD like another suggested.

Therefore the winner would be SD free. Bit more of an incentive but as I have said before, the nuts and bolts need to be decided upon.

Axwell

You could maybe look into some sort of sponsorship or advertising on the site, possibly from the likes of Spin 1038 or some other radio station. Im not sure how viable it would be but its something to think about.

1. it would make it looks more official for anyone doubting the nature of it

2. it would provide some extra funding to pay for the website and advertising

pagekarl

Excellent Idea Axwell!

argolis

ShooterSF wrote: »

If you read above you'd realize there's a loophole to this. The question I have OP and I have been supportive here, have you planed how much are you planning on spending on marketing and how are you to go about it?

If you read the rest of my post, you'd realize I mentioned that loophole when I referred to "skill-based competitions".

the immortals

i would buy tickets, no question

pagekarl

Excellent! Id oonly sold bout 50 so far if this post is anything to go by...

Right who else would be interested based on all the facts?

:pac:

Calina

No way in hell would I buy tickets for this. I don't know where the apartment is, I don't know what it looks like. I don't want an investment property and I don't want the hassle of renting it out just because it "only" cost around 20E or whatever your ticket cost is. If I were to acquire a property, it would be to live in it.

I don't see you providing any useful information about the property in question except it's in what you call a highly sought after location. I don't know if it's highly sought after by me.

I don't want an apartment. I want a house. Getting an apartment for a ticket cost will not change this. I don't want to go through the hassle of selling it. I do not know what possessing it would do to my FTB which is far more valuable to me than you can imagine.

What happens if I were to win and my surveyor informed me there were X Y and Z problems with the apartment structurally? Where's the "subject to contract" bit there?

I don't care why you might try this scheme but personally I would not want to touch it with a bargepole.

Axwell

Calina wrote: »

No way in hell would I buy tickets for this. I don't know where the apartment is, I don't know what it looks like. I don't want an investment property and I don't want the hassle of renting it out just because it "only" cost around 20E or whatever your ticket cost is. If I were to acquire a property, it would be to live in it.

I don't see you providing any useful information about the property in question except it's in what you call a highly sought after location. I don't know if it's highly sought after by me.

I don't want an apartment. I want a house. Getting an apartment for a ticket cost will not change this. I don't want to go through the hassle of selling it. I do not know what possessing it would do to my FTB which is far more valuable to me than you can imagine.

What happens if I were to win and my surveyor informed me there were X Y and Z problems with the apartment structurally? Where's the "subject to contract" bit there?

I don't care why you might try this scheme but personally I would not want to touch it with a bargepole.

Ok glad you got that off your chest, we get that you dont want it
But there is no reason why you couldnt use the apartment if you did win it as equity towards another property i.e. the house you want so there is a good enough reason right there why the apartment would be of use to you. As the OP was just enquiring about doing this im sure the finer points of where it is and a picture and details will be provided if he goes ahead with the idea,hes just putting it forward as an idea he may go ahead with. No one else is going to buy a ticket without seeing pictures or knowing more details in fairness.It seems even if you dont buy a ticket plenty of others will so their is an interest in it, also assuming that english property sells its tickets etc then it would only heighten the interest in his own.

pagekarl

Calina wrote: »

No way in hell would I buy tickets for this. I don't know where the apartment is, I don't know what it looks like. I don't want an investment property and I don't want the hassle of renting it out just because it "only" cost around 20E or whatever your ticket cost is. If I were to acquire a property, it would be to live in it.

I don't see you providing any useful information about the property in question except it's in what you call a highly sought after location. I don't know if it's highly sought after by me.

I don't want an apartment. I want a house. Getting an apartment for a ticket cost will not change this. I don't want to go through the hassle of selling it. I do not know what possessing it would do to my FTB which is far more valuable to me than you can imagine.

What happens if I were to win and my surveyor informed me there were X Y and Z problems with the apartment structurally? Where's the "subject to contract" bit there?

I don't care why you might try this scheme but personally I would not want to touch it with a bargepole.

Id say you might be the type that wins the lotto and worries bout how it could ruin your life....simple answer dont do the lotto.....:D

Thread might be gettin a bit long now but you should still read all posts before replying. As Ax said I have mentioned that all the info will be posted on the net if/when the comp goes ahead. However I doubt you will be interested.

I will be defo keeping an eye on the english comp alright.....

Calina

pagekarl wrote: »

Id say you might be the type that wins the lotto and worries bout how it could ruin your life....simple answer dont do the lotto.....:D
.

I read all the posts. I am surprised that so many people would get involved in this to be honest. No one has addressed the issue of the loss of FTBs stamp exemptions, for example, and you're only doing this because the apartment market is bombing and would have to take a loss if you tried to sell yourself, so I have no interest in the equity on an apartment which may well be basically unsaleable.

Forsaken1

Calina wrote: »

No way in hell would I buy tickets for this. I don't know where the apartment is, I don't know what it looks like. I don't want an investment property and I don't want the hassle of renting it out just because it "only" cost around 20E or whatever your ticket cost is. If I were to acquire a property, it would be to live in it.

I don't see you providing any useful information about the property in question except it's in what you call a highly sought after location. I don't know if it's highly sought after by me.

I don't want an apartment. I want a house. Getting an apartment for a ticket cost will not change this. I don't want to go through the hassle of selling it. I do not know what possessing it would do to my FTB which is far more valuable to me than you can imagine.

What happens if I were to win and my surveyor informed me there were X Y and Z problems with the apartment structurally? Where's the "subject to contract" bit there?

I don't care why you might try this scheme but personally I would not want to touch it with a bargepole.

What do you want for under 20 euro!!

A mortgage free apartment is a guaranteed 200k windfall no matter how you see it.
You could sell below market rate and still clean up!
FTB status is not worth 200k! So the FTB argument is void.
If you want a house then 200k would go well towards a house...

As long as you hadn't won one of those apartments that had the wrong cement compound mix, then you'd be laughing...:D


pagekarl, you could post a website with all the details and ability to buy online tickets. each ticket purchase records a mobile number and sends an SMS to the individual with their number.
And you could have separate ticket number range for printed tickets.
In general its a good idea.

stepbar

Just after reading through this thread......

Am I the only one to think that the OP is a pure gob****e? Raffling your apartment.... FFS :rolleyes:

Come on mods, call time on this please or move it to After Hours

pagekarl

stepbar wrote: »

Just after reading through this thread......

Am I the only one to think that the OP is a pure gob****e? Raffling your apartment.... FFS :rolleyes:

Come on mods, call time on this please or move it to After Hours

Wow that was a bit harsh... A Gob$h!te? Whats the forum heading? "Entrepreneurial & Business Mngmt"? Hence the Entrep Ideas....

Oh and its a Competition not a raffle.... One you are no longer eligible for...:P

miju

dont worry your not the only one to think that

OTK

This thread was covered in one of the sunday papers recently (Sunday Times or Business Post - I forget which). Pagekarl was even mentioned. The journalist's angles was that this was an indicator of desperate recessionary behaviour and a reminder of the previous famous Irish auction from the slumping 80s. Apparently that raffle was a big success for the organiser despite a small fine and court appearance. Legislation may have changed since.

stepbar

OTK wrote: »

This thread was covered in one of the sunday papers recently (Sunday Times or Business Post - I forget which). Pagekarl was even mentioned. The journalist's angles was that this was an indicator of desperate recessionary behaviour and a reminder of the previous famous Irish auction from the slumping 80s. Apparently that raffle was a big success for the organiser despite a small fine and court appearance. Legislation may have changed since.

Sign of the times eh?

pagekarl

OTK wrote: »

This thread was covered in one of the sunday papers recently (Sunday Times or Business Post - I forget which). Pagekarl was even mentioned. The journalist's angles was that this was an indicator of desperate recessionary behaviour and a reminder of the previous famous Irish auction from the slumping 80s. Apparently that raffle was a big success for the organiser despite a small fine and court appearance. Legislation may have changed since.

You frickin serious? I was mentioned also? What the hell it say? I havent spoke to anyone to any papers or nothin like that. Can some1 find out what was said.....

Darragh29

OTK wrote: »

This thread was covered in one of the sunday papers recently (Sunday Times or Business Post - I forget which). Pagekarl was even mentioned. The journalist's angles was that this was an indicator of desperate recessionary behaviour and a reminder of the previous famous Irish auction from the slumping 80s. Apparently that raffle was a big success for the organiser despite a small fine and court appearance. Legislation may have changed since.

As it happens, I'm 90% + sure that I know the OP and wouldn't recommend having any business dealings with him whatsoever...

Darragh29

stepbar wrote: »

Just after reading through this thread......

Am I the only one to think that the OP is a pure gob****e? Raffling your apartment.... FFS :rolleyes:

Come on mods, call time on this please or move it to After Hours

+1.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

stepbar

The Scientist wrote: »

Stepbar & Darragh infracted.
As i said in a previous post, keep it Civil.
No need for the sniping.

For what? Telling the truth ...... Why don't you close this thread as asked?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

stepbar

Calm down.

I thought this was "supposed" to be a serious forum. This ain't afterhours.....

pagekarl

What the funk you talkin about you !diot? Believe me you have the wrong person.... But either way, whats your basis for the comment bar bein a complete looser?
:mad:

Mupppppet!

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

pagekarl wrote: »

What the funk you talkin about you !diot? Believe me you have the wrong person.... But either way, whats your basis for the comment bar bein a complete looser?
:mad:

Mupppppet!

banned for seven days. the mods of this forum might make it longer

stepbar

I'm sorry that you've failed to realise how utterly ridiculus your idea is. You've been told that it's illegal yet you still seem to be keen to proceed. Anyhow your post has been reported for abuse. Bye.

Darragh29

pagekarl wrote: »

Hi im doin some research at the minute in relation to raffling off my apartment and am wondering how much interest there would be in buying a ticket -

The Raffle - The raffle will consist of tickets being sold on EBAY where a buyer purchases a ticket number betweeen 1 and "the final number of tickets to be sold, lets say 50,000 for arguments sake". Each ticket will be €5-10 each. The raffle itself will have legal documents drawn up by my own solicitor and all terms and conditions will be attached to the ebay purchase. The raffle will be held by a official adjudicator on line and a date will be attached to ebay for the raffle to take place so people can log on and watch the winning ticket being pulled.

The rules - It is my intention that a min number of tickets will need to be sold for the raffle to go ahead (again this will be mentioned on ebay). I these tickets are not sold then all moneys will be refunded via paypal.

Profit - It is not my intention to make profits on this raffle however advertising, tax, gaming licence costs etc will need to be covered within the number of tickets sold. The number of tickets been sold will be decided on ebay agreement therefore the buyer knows their odds will not vary i.e odds of 1 in 50k and not 1 in infinity.

Reason - :mad:Recession:mad: and dont want to sell apartment at a loss which in the current market is more than likely:mad:.


The Prize - The :Dwinner:D will be pulled out on the date mentioned on the ebay purchase. That person will then be handed over the deeds to a 1bedroom luxury apartment in a highly sought after location in dublin. That person will be mortgage free. That person will have spent no more than the charge of purchasing the ebay ticket.

Sound like somenthing you would be interested in?

The more positive responses I get the more chance this raffle has of taking place.

Cheers

:eek:

Here's a way of making even more profit out of your idea... Just before the "raffle", disappear with the raffle money! That would leave you with your apartment to sell when the market recovers (like the rest of us have to do!), PLUS a nice tidy lump sum to keep you going until then! You wouldn't be the first person to do it if you did, which is why I wouldn't be buying a ticket for your apartment, that is assuming that you could proceed with it if it wasn't illegal, which we have already established that it is. Your not Lord Lucan by any chance, are ya!?! :D:D

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

ShooterSF

stepbar wrote: »

I'm sorry that you've failed to realise how utterly ridiculus your idea is. You've been told that it's illegal yet you still seem to be keen to proceed. Anyhow your post has been reported for abuse. Bye.

If you had actually read the topic rather than attacking the chap you'd have realized it's not illegal, skill based contests have been going on for years.

stepbar

ShooterSF wrote: »

If you had actually read the topic rather than attacking the chap you'd have realized it's not illegal, skill based contests have been going on for years.

Raffling an apartment for personal gain is illegal. This is what the OP wants to do. It has been "suggested" by others that the OP might be able to get around the legalities by running a "skill based" raffle (*cough") contest. Highly dubious and certainly a grey area.

Axwell

stepbar wrote: »

Raffling an apartment for personal gain is illegal. This is what the OP wants to do. It has been "suggested" by others that the OP might be able to get around the legalities by running a "skill based" raffle (*cough") contest. Highly dubious and certainly a grey area.

If you arent interested then dont post cos all you seem to do is criticise and make comments that arent of any use. As was stated before if the OP is going to go through with it he would have to obviously put up on his site the terms and conditions and any legal information regarding the property and the actual raffle and everyone is aware of these issues your not exactly pointing out anything new that hasnt been posted before and just seem to want to continue your personal barrage.

stepbar

Axwell wrote: »

If you arent interested then dont post cos all you seem to do is criticise and make comments that arent of any use. As was stated before if the OP is going to go through with it he would have to obviously put up on his site the terms and conditions and any legal information regarding the property and the actual raffle and everyone is aware of these issues your not exactly pointing out anything new that hasnt been posted before and just seem to want to continue your personal barrage.

Pot, Kettle, Black.....

Axwell

stepbar wrote: »

Pot, Kettle, Black.....

Not really,i am interested in the raffle and have posted making suggestions to the OP as to how advertise etc, you have posted asking for the thread to be shut and calling the OP's idea ridiculous.

The rule of making it "skill based" is used on practically every tv show offering prizes from the Late Late to Tubridy Tonight as you cannot just give away the prize. Also there is that family in the UK doing exactly the same thing so its not as if he is the first.

pagekarl

Axwell wrote: »

Not really,i am interested in the raffle and have posted making suggestions to the OP as to how advertise etc, you have posted asking for the thread to be shut and calling the OP's idea ridiculous.

The rule of making it "skill based" is used on practically every tv show offering prizes from the Late Late to Tubridy Tonight as you cannot just give away the prize. Also there is that family in the UK doing exactly the same thing so its not as if he is the first.

Thanks for that axwell....Ridiculous gettin banned for commenting on tose two but sure what can you do.

One last thing on this thread. Would people rather paying 10 for a ticket with 30k-1 odds or 20 a ticket with 15k-1 odds? Tough 1 to call. Think the cheaper would sell better but could be either one.

Cheers

bren2002

I'd suggest €10 at 30,000/1. You can always buy 2 tickets to make it 15,000/1

Axwell

bren2002 wrote: »

I'd suggest €10 at 30,000/1. You can always buy 2 tickets to make it 15,000/1

Well i would say it depends on the interest, the lottery just sold 300k tickets at 20 quid a pop for their millionaire raffle. If people think the prize is worth it they will pay the 20quid, you need to be sure you can sell all the tickets at that price tho, if you cant then you need to go with the 10 quid ticket to increase your chances of selling them all

Darragh29

Axwell wrote: »

Well i would say it depends on the interest, the lottery just sold 300k tickets at 20 quid a pop for their millionaire raffle. If people think the prize is worth it they will pay the 20quid, you need to be sure you can sell all the tickets at that price tho, if you cant then you need to go with the 10 quid ticket to increase your chances of selling them all

What safeguards will purchasers or potential purchasers have that if the raffle does not proceed, that they will receive a full refund??? This would be my main concern, particularly given the current context, where this has not been done before by the OP... For example, if the tickets don't sell and the raffle cannot proceed, the solicitor who would have done the legal groundwork before a single ticket could be sold, would most likely have an invoice for approximatley 10,000 Euro and is still going to want to be paid, raffle or no raffle. Who is going to pay this??? Who is going to pay the marketing costs for the failed venture??? If someone taking on this type of a venture has a choice between paying a full refund to everyone who bought a ticket and paying fully out of his/her pocket, the expenses accrued OR alternatively paying the expenses out of the central pool of funds created by ticket sales and giving ticket buyers a partial refund, what choice will they uptimately make???

Axwell

Darragh29 wrote: »

what choice will they uptimately make???

"Uptimately" the OP would have to list all these in the terms and conditions drawn up by a solicitor before anyone would buy a ticket the same way the UK site has done from the beginning of this thread.

Darragh29

Axwell wrote: »

"Uptimately" the OP would have to list all these in the terms and conditions drawn up by a solicitor before anyone would buy a ticket the same way the UK site has done from the beginning of this thread.

Yeah, that's obvious. What I'm asking is what would those terms & conditions be??? For example, would a possible term and condition be that if the draw does not proceed for whatever reason, would you receive a contribution towards your refund (as distinct from a full refund), substantially less than the price you paid for your ticket in the first place, reducible by a possibly sizable contribution to legal, marketing and admin costs???

pagekarl

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah, that's obvious. What I'm asking is what would those terms & conditions be??? For example, would a possible term and condition be that if the draw does not proceed for whatever reason, would you receive a contribution towards your refund (as distinct from a full refund), substantially less than the price you paid for your ticket in the first place, reducible by a possibly sizable contribution to legal, marketing and admin costs???

Daragh,

To be honest i was only puttin out the feelers on this and didnt expect such in depth quetions. If i was to proceed (which I honestly doubt,Tax laws seem to be a deal breaker in this country), then the T&C's would be ironed out and documented in the website. The idea was to "raffle" off the moneys earned instead of the apartment should the competition fail to sell all tickets. Also if all the tickets were sold and the apartment was won then the idea was to include both solic fees and stamp duty as part of the prize.

Cheers

Darragh29

pagekarl wrote: »

Daragh,

To be honest i was only puttin out the feelers on this and didnt expect such in depth quetions. If i was to proceed (which I honestly doubt,Tax laws seem to be a deal breaker in this country), then the T&C's would be ironed out and documented in the website. The idea was to "raffle" off the moneys earned instead of the apartment should the competition fail to sell all tickets. Also if all the tickets were sold and the apartment was won then the idea was to include both solic fees and stamp duty as part of the prize.

Cheers

So if the raffle doesn't proceed, you put up the revenue from the raffle, less whatever expenses you have accrued, for the raffle instead of the apartment itself??? Will you be taking a charge on the revenue for yourself out of the fund to cover your time & effort in the whole project??? If not, you are effectively losing all financial interest in your property.

bren2002

pagekarl given all of the difficulties that have been presented, and your comment on tax implications, are you still going to go ahead with this? What's your plan now?

mcgiggy

bren2002 wrote: »

I'd suggest €10 at 30,000/1. You can always buy 2 tickets to make it 15,000/1

My God - the odds when you buy 2 tickets at 10 euro each bring the odds down to 29,998/1, you absolute lepper

Axwell

mcgiggy wrote: »

My God - the odds when you buy 2 tickets at 10 euro each bring the odds down to 29,998/1, you absolute lepper

Well done you, you come on to post on something thats 2 months old to call some a lepper. You have to wonder who the real idiot is :rolleyes: