has the crackdown been a success

ssmith6287

anyone know the stats for the month of july this year and last year

Alanstrainor

What stats are you hoping to find?

ssmith6287

the supposed stats that show learner drivers were the reason for the amount of road problems we have!!!

Alanstrainor

Road Problems?
There was never a garda crackdown on L drivers, all that happened on the 31st of June is 2nd provisional holders no longer allowed to drive unaccomp. Yes people have been stopped at various garda checkpoints, but there was never a "crackdown".
I'm one click away from closing this thread, so make your response a good one.

ssmith6287

well there obviously was because before the "crackdown" people with 1st provisional licences might be pulled over and let away scott free, whereas now theres fines, penalty points, and even confiscation.....what would you call it?? enforcing the law more!! i reckon crackdown seems a bit better... im just interested to see if the "Young Drivers" are the reason for the crashes or have they come out with a new excuse.... and please don't try to make me sound like im spitefull, I agree with the accompanying drivers etc... Im genuinely interested to see iff their no excuses approach has made a difference

Alanstrainor

Garda crackdown means there was a specific garda initiative to target Learner Drivers. There wasn't. First leaner permit holders/provisional drivers were never allowed to drive unaccomp, The 30th of June regulation changes merely brought in minimum fines of €1000 to those on provisional licenses, those on L permits were bound by this since november last.
I'm not trying to make you seem Spiteful.

Stark

Asking has it made a difference is like asking have speed checks made a difference to speed-related crashes when people continue to speed regardless.

ssmith6287

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Garda crackdown means there was a specific garda initiative to target Learner Drivers. There wasn't. First leaner permit holders/provisional drivers were never allowed to drive unaccomp, The 30th of June regulation changes merely brought in minimum fines of €1000 to those on provisional licenses, those on L permits were bound by this since november last.
I'm not trying to make you seem Spiteful.

Where they or werent they cracking down on L drivers driving unacompanied ??? thats not the point anyway, im interested in the stats and seen as L drivers tend not to drive anymore have the roads improved

Stark

ssmith6287 wrote:

im interested in the stats and seen as L drivers tend not to drive anymore

What are you basing this on?

ssmith6287

Stark wrote: »

What are you basing this on?

basically my own eyes, ive seen very few L plates since the fines came in. obviously there are alot of people just taking their plates down. but there was obviously a reason why these punishments have been introduced. dont get me wrong, i agree with them. but people should have never been allowed drive unacompanied in the 1st place. most of the nation believe these punishments were brought in to stop "boy racers" on L plates from killing themselves and others, now that these guys are off the roads, have the road fatalities/incidents changed.

Alanstrainor

The simple fact of the matter is that there are no stats for this yet. It's only been 1 month.

ssmith6287

thats all i wanted to know!!!!

Placebo

I think the stats that would be deemed relevant to this whole area in general would be the expected decrease in road accidents. Which is by far the prime reason for this law.
Using the excuse of 'its the same driver' just accompanied makes the new restriction look like a joke as this accompanied driver acts as a trainer, - not that i agree with the law whatsoever, but i fail to see why you have an urge to lock the thread.

Wishbone Ash

ssmith6287 wrote: »

anyone know the stats for the month of july this year and last year

July hasn't finished yet so I'd be extremely surprised if statistics on July were available!

ardmacha

Statistically you couldn't say anything from one month anyway, as accidents are a series of random events. It would take years to make any useful statement on the effectiveness of any particular measure. You can say though that countries with lower accident rates in general have proper driver training regimes and logic supports enforcing laws if it was worth passing them.

meptastic

Ok, it's much too soon to have statistical evidence on whether these new measures are having any effect on what happens on our roads. If anecdotal observation is worth anything at all, I certainly haven't noticed any sudden improvement at all in driving standards in the past month.

What I do notice is, for example, my brother-in-law, who lives in Kells, but works in Blanchardstown, and whose shift times do not coincide with the bus times past his door, is currently relying on a pregnant woman to get him into work, as he has failed his driving test for the third time.

I passed mine first time here, but I do see a disproportionate number of people here failing, compared to other countries I've lived in in Europe. Makes me wonder whether the instructors are generally deficient, the standard non-standard as many suggest, or just generally wonder what is going on?

I did notice over in Germany that regulations in general were much more fixed, and it made me wonder if the lack of that could be making it a lot harder to pass a test when an unusual situation comes up here?

Stark

meptastic wrote:

What I do notice is, for example, my brother-in-law, who lives in Kells, but works in Blanchardstown, and whose shift times do not coincide with the bus times past his door, is currently relying on a pregnant woman to get him into work, as he has failed his driving test for the third time.

It's a tough situation, but he's shown himself to be unfit to drive unaccompanied on three separate occasions. He needs to sort out what he's doing wrong before taking to the roads on his own.

meptastic wrote:

I passed mine first time here, but I do see a disproportionate number of people here failing, compared to other countries I've lived in in Europe. Makes me wonder whether the instructors are generally deficient, the standard non-standard as many suggest, or just generally wonder what is going on?

There are an awful lot of cowboy instructors in Ireland, largely because the sector was unregulated for years. Even some of the large driving schools don't seem to educate their staff properly as some of the things I've heard from some of them have been completely ridiculous. I think your brother-in-law needs to do his research when choosing his next driving instructor. I wouldn't be inclined to believe all this "such and such has a 9x% pass rate with his students" word of mouth crap that you regularly hear either. In fact that would probably turn me off if an instructor made that claim.

Morgans

I think the stats are important. Every measure that is brought in should have the objective of reducing some stat or other. So, has the measure worked is a valid question. It may be too early to say. It was clear from all stats that i have read (i posted ones from a few years ago on here before and heard stats read by Noel Brett last October) that Learner drivers were proportionally involved in less accidents than non-learners, but deaths on the road was the reason why it was imperative that the proposals were to be brought in overnight (when originally proposed last October). Complete and utter twaddle. The only thing that bringing the second provisionals in line with every other learner would do is to allow gardai seeing ANY learner driving unaccompanied to know that they are definitely breaking the law. But in practice, it appears that it is another one of the laws that you can technically be caught on, but realistically enforecement is low.

I had to laugh when I was running past my local garda station last week and an unaccompanied learner was driving out of the station. Said it all to me.

pinkymc08

ssmith6287 wrote: »

well there obviously was because before the "crackdown" people with 1st provisional licences might be pulled over and let away scott free, whereas now theres fines, penalty points, and even confiscation.....what would you call it?? enforcing the law more!! i reckon crackdown seems a bit better... im just interested to see if the "Young Drivers" are the reason for the crashes or have they come out with a new excuse.... and please don't try to make me sound like im spitefull, I agree with the accompanying drivers etc... Im genuinely interested to see iff their no excuses approach has made a difference

i so agree with you with this one,and i hate when they blame "male divers" for causing crashes drives me mad coz anyone can cause crash wether speeding or not and i think its unfair that a learner driver has to be accompany its a load of bull if you ask me

Wishbone Ash

Morgans wrote: »

I had to laugh when I was running past my local garda station last week and an unaccompanied learner was driving out of the station. Said it all to me.

How do you know that the motorist in question was a learner driver? There is no legal requirement for a licence holder to remove an 'L' plate.

pinkymc08 wrote: »

ii hate when they blame "male divers" for causing crashes drives me mad coz anyone can cause crash

Are you seriously suggesting that the deaths of so many young male drivers on our roads is being caused by others?

pinkymc08 wrote:

i think its unfair that a learner driver has to be accompany

Why do you think it's unfair?

pinkymc08

Wishbone Ash... i gad to laugh at the mail you sent me, bout learner driver driving out of garda station haha i really do think it says it all arter that.:)

Caychadh

The statistics don't really give a clear picture. People on second provisionals were not the root cause of road deaths prior to this 'clampdown' for want of a better term.
If you want to use stats then either:
1. Yes, it's definitely worked! There were 25 deaths on the roads this July, as opposed to 31 in July 2007, 38 in 2006 and a massive 41 in 2005. Finally, the government is making a difference.
2. No, not at all! There were 25 deaths on the roads this July, but there were only 19 each in March, April and May, before the (minor) change in the law and there have already been several road deaths this month. As usual, the government is making no difference.

Personally, I think anything which highlights road safety and takes inexperienced drivers (of which I am one!) away from potentially hazardous situations is a success. But as with speed cameras, breath testing, new speed limits etc, it's just another step in what I hope to be the right direction.

Wishbone Ash

pinkymc08 wrote: »

Wishbone Ash... i gad to laugh at the mail you sent me

I didn't send you any mail!!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

daveharnett

To be honest, I would question the usefulness of any stats on Irish road safety. The Gardai generally don't attend accidents unless injuries are involved. We don't test for alcohol/drug use as a matter of course at the scene of an accident. Given that, how can we know what percentage of accidents involve one or other?

I would also question the methodology used to establish the cause of accidents. For instance, it is very easy to blame an accident on excessive speed, where it may have been one of several contributing factors.

Statistics collection is so bare that I suspect one could spin them to support whatever point of view you happen to hold tbh.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Fighting Irish

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Road Problems?
There was never a garda crackdown on L drivers, all that happened on the 31st of June is 2nd provisional holders no longer allowed to drive unaccomp. Yes people have been stopped at various garda checkpoints, but there was never a "crackdown".
I'm one click away from closing this thread, so make your response a good one.

jesus relax, its not as if he's killing babies

towel401

Stark wrote: »

It's a tough situation, but he's shown himself to be unfit to drive unaccompanied on three separate occasions. He needs to sort out what he's doing wrong before taking to the roads on his own.



There are an awful lot of cowboy instructors in Ireland, largely because the sector was unregulated for years. Even some of the large driving schools don't seem to educate their staff properly as some of the things I've heard from some of them have been completely ridiculous. I think your brother-in-law needs to do his research when choosing his next driving instructor. I wouldn't be inclined to believe all this "such and such has a 9x% pass rate with his students" word of mouth crap that you regularly hear either. In fact that would probably turn me off if an instructor made that claim.

because everyone knows those tests are infallible rite? other things such as corruption (not enough lessons) could have caused him to fail.

maybe i'm just an evil, old cynical bastard for even suggesting that this sort of thing might go on. and maybe i am an evil baby killing criminal for driving to the shop by myself on a provisional but the possibility always remains that it wasn't 100% the brother's fault.

Wishbone Ash

towel401 wrote: »

but the possibility always remains that it wasn't 100% the brother's fault.

But that logic could be applied to almost every aspect of life - not just a driving test! And where would that get us?

wil

meptastic wrote: »

....I passed mine first time here, but I do see a disproportionate number of people here failing, compared to other countries I've lived in in Europe. Makes me wonder whether the instructors are generally deficient, the standard non-standard as many suggest, or just generally wonder what is going on?
?

This give you any idea?

UKGov wrote:

"Those who pass their driving test have had, on average, about 45 hours of professional training combined with 22 hours of private practice.

Seosamh Blogganna* wrote:

A couple of lessons at the beginning, drive around for a year, a few pretests and you'll be grand:rolleyes:

*No relation to Joe Bloggs

Morgans

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

How do you know that the motorist in question was a learner driver? There is no legal requirement for a licence holder to remove an 'L' plate.

Another example of the type of nonsense that seems to reign on this forum. As I do not know the person, I have to take the circumstances at face value. There is no way I could know whether he was a learner driver or not. I couldnt or didnt ask to see his licence. I have on several occasions driven home after forgetting to take down the L-plates that my girlfirend uses. I have asked if there is a problem legally with this on these forums without an answer. It would be fully correct for anyone else seeing me to assume that I was a learner driving with L-plates up, and I would expect to need to explain it to a guard. If the person I was taking about wasnt a learner driver so be it, but taken at face value, he was a learner driver driving unaccompanied from that garda station.

Its the snotty nose high and mighty moral high ground dwellers that annoy me on this forum. All testers are impartial, there is no luck involved in the driving test, the driving test is a true determinant of a person's safety behind a wheel, the RSA cannot be criticised for waiting times, and the guards need to be cracking down on the l-plated drivers, (as if it was ever going to make any difference) etc etc etc. If someone is driving unaccompanied from a garda station with an l-plate, it has to be because he is a fully qaulified driver that didnt take down his l-plates. There is no way in teh world that he would be allowed put the key in the ignition if he was a learner.

The chances of getting caught as a learner driver driving unaccompanied are in my experience the same as at any time before. As i said earlier, all the new laws have done have made certain in the guards mind if they pull over a l-plate car with a unaccompanied, they can be sure that the law is being broken (unless of course the person is in fact a qualified driver) The idea seems to be from several on here is that the law should be enforced to the max at all times, which is fine in theory, but is in now way practical. In the past three years (since I moved house) I have passed maybe 5/6 checkpoints. If that. If he was a learner driver, the guards have unfortunately bigger fish to fry. While in that same garda station at 7pm on a friday evening about 6 months ago, i was waiting for forms to collect, four lads were brought in by four different guards in handcuffs. Bigger fish to fry.

Anyway, i digress, I hope that when you are next behind a one occupant car with l-plates up while he/she displays some of the typical learner driver errors, entering the wrong lane of a roundabout, switching lanes without checking mirrors, slowing down dangerously coming to a bend or god forbid they are on a motorway doing 75KMph in the outside lane, that you should realise your own advise and not take things at face value. In fact it probably is just a fully qualified driver who forgot to take down the l-plates. The silly sod.

Wishbone Ash

Morgans wrote: »

Its the snotty nose high and mighty moral high ground dwellers that annoy me on this forum

Please feel free to go elsewhere - there's no one keeping you here!