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Abortion

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    #272
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    thaeydal
    your saying because of the "slut shaing" that goes on gievs a women a right to terminate her pregnancy?????????? i know this goes on but thats not a good enough reson to terminate a life.


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    #273
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Every woman, which is roughly at least 6,000 a year who goes to have an abortion knows full well that they would have a baby if they did not have the procedure and will wonder what might have been and grieve
    That could be societal to an extent too, though.

    I can envision a society, perhaps even in old Catholic Ireland, where a woman would feel a huge amount of guilt for using contraception, and perhaps denying a child a life. And on the other hand, I can envision a society where abortion is accepted and routine in the case of unplanned pregnancies without a second thought given to grievance.

    However:
    Thaedydal wrote: »
    the biochemical changes that thier body will do through will it goes from being pregnant to not being pregnant had it's effects and the first year is hard.
    I can't dispute this, though I don't understand the full implications of these biochemical changes.


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    #274
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    eveie wrote: »
    Thaedydal
    you are not reading my posts, i have stated that im am involved with PLC (pro-life campaign)

    Invovled how ?
    Employed by them ?
    Are you a lobbyist ?
    eveie wrote: »
    i do not know of ANY pro-life organisation here that will tell a women to pray for forgivness or to ommit she was wrong,and to be degrading to a women like that. i treat women in this situation with compassion and respect, and so do all of my co-workers. maybe in america but not here, can i ask where you got that "fact" from

    I have been to two such 'support meetings' and I know of 3 other women who have. I still have the yellow " Women hurt by Abortion" leaflets which were handed out.
    eveie wrote: »
    guilt is a natuarl feeling although nurtured through society it is the same as feeling love or hurt. each and everyone of us has a conscience when we do something that is fundamantallly wrong that plays on out conscience.

    Different people have different morals different view on what is 'wrong',
    just because a woman is grieving for a potential child she chose to abort does not mean she thinks/feels it was the wrong thing to do but that she is aware of the consequences of what she has done.
    eveie wrote: »
    getting away from why women have abortion economics,not the right time selfishness, family issues, rape, incest, etc do you think that abortion in itself is wrong? i know its difficult to answer that question as we all attach abortion to some outside factor

    If I could eliminate the need for abortion with better education, access to contraception, real support systems for those who wish to give the child up for adoption including it being seen as a noble thing then I would.


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    #275
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    Jc2k3
    would you be happy living in a society where abortion was the norm? would you not think by having abrotion as the norm that we as a society have no regard for life. the problem with legalising abortion is where does it stop....where do you draw the line, what do you allow and what do you not allow, there are many people out there who have very warrped views of what personhood is. i think if abortion was illegal in england it would lesson the amount of unwanted pregnancys, many women see abortion as another form of contraception.
    also im getting sick of this whole old catholic ireland, we are no longer living in a soley catholic country, i have not seen one post here that defends or denys abortion on the back of a religious argument.
    on some of the links i put up you will find deifferent medical research into the health affects abortion has on a women, every women should be aware of these, if you went in for heart surgeory you would be told of all the risks yet when you go for an abortion they do not tell you any of them.
    also abortion is free on the nhs (england) to all students, are you surprised there is such a high rate of pregnancy when abortion is so readily available


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    #276
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    eveie wrote: »
    thaeydal
    your saying because of the "slut shaming" that goes on gievs a women a right to terminate her pregnancy?????????? i know this goes on but thats not a good enough reson to terminate a life.

    Really ?

    So we don't have young women in her late teens early twenties being told by thier family they will be disowned, kicked out of the family home and get so support what so ever if they become pregnant ? This still happens in this day and age.

    Many women have abortions for the same reasons they have always, if they feel the conditions for bringing a child into this world and raising them are not optimal and by not having this child they can improve on their circumstances thus giving any children they have later a better chance at life and surviving.

    Its evolution and survival instincts.


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    #277
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    eveie wrote: »
    nerin i didnt use "kill" to describe the termination of a preganncy i used it in relation to born children that are obviously dependant on others, what im saying is if we use the excuse of oh well the unborn is dependant on me and cannot live with out so therefore it is my decision then that argument can be easily transended to the born child who is still dependant on the parent, is it ok to kill a born child? if that is someones way of thinking then it would only make sense that that would be their feeling on the born child

    No,it doesn't make sense. Actually,you're making less and less sense as this goes on. A born child is different to an unborn one. Just as annoying perhaps. A born child isn't inside me. Using my body to 'live'. I still don't see why abortion should not be allowed for people who don't hold your views. Live and let live,or as paul once said live and let die. Either way you can't force people to share your opinions,so this is a futile arguement. And i'm running out of credit.


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    #278
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Also,theres to many humans,in my opinion. A cull would be nice. But thats just my opinion. And i'm crazy,so i don't think many people would share my belief. But i'm not going to go campaign it.


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    #279
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    Thaedydal in all due respeact i dont think it is rerquired for you to know excatly how i am involved in the PLC but i am involved i am not willing to say how.
    who were behind these "support meetings" obviously some religious order, i believe that for some women they can help heal the hurt but they are not for the majority of women. i also think by using religion in an argument you are segragating many people.
    i would love to see a world where abortion didnt happen, and even if it were made legal there would still be illegal practices in abundance. it is not as easy as just legalising it, in order to do this our consitution has to change we as a country ahve to say that the unborn does not have a right to life. that brings in so many complications.
    i do not know of anyone who would see giving up a child for adoption as a non-noble thing to do, i think and i think the majotiry of people thing it is one of the most amazing things anyone could ever do


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    #280
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    parts of the world are overpopulated parts are under populated. take russia for example they are facing a crisis at the minute because for every child that is born 2 are aborted, there population is negitave, they are going to face major problems in a number of years.


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    #281
    john_aero
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭john_aero


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Really ?

    So we don't have young women in her late teens early twenties being told by thier family they will be disowned, kicked out of the family home and get so support what so ever if they become pregnant ? This still happens in this day and age.

    Many women have abortions for the same reasons they have always, if they feel the conditions for bringing a child into this world and raising them are not optimal and by not having this child they can improve on their circumstances thus giving any children they have later a better chance at life and surviving.

    Its evolution and survival instincts.

    not to sound bad but if they know this and willingly have sex then how mature are they. if they are not mature enough to know what the consequences are then keep legs closed and your mahood zipped up


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    #282
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    eveie wrote: »
    parts of the world are overpopulated parts are under populated. take russia for example they are facing a crisis at the minute because for every child that is born 2 are aborted, there population is negitave, they are going to face major problems in a number of years.

    Bit of flawed logic there...populations are calculated by subtracting deaths and adding births. Abortions don't count!


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    #283
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    look it up, they are being counted because it is an abornmal amount being carried out


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    #284
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    eveie wrote: »
    Thaedydal in all due respect i dont think it is required for you to know exactly how i am involved in the PLC but i am involved i am not willing to say how.

    Why ?

    If you are a person who believes in the cause enough to get invovled and be part of the political process then that is a good thing so kudos to you.

    If you are employed by them and are posting from work and part of your brief is to try and use places like this for promotion of PLC then that makes you a shill. I would like to know which I am dealing with.

    I would not have a problem with PLC and safe and legal in Ireland running paid ads on this site but the admins really don't like shills.

    eveie wrote: »
    who were behind these "support meetings" obviously some religious order, i believe that for some women they can help heal the hurt but they are not for the majority of women. i also think by using religion in an argument you are segragating many people.

    Cura were.

    The vast majority of those I have interacted with from various pro life groups have been religiously motivated. I can see that a new direction is being taken to enguage with the more secular younger sections of today's socitey and to give the pro life stance a make over re moving the rosary beads so that when there is another refenda the result is not what the current polling data is showing.
    eveie wrote: »
    i do not know of anyone who would see giving up a child for adoption as a non-noble thing to do, i think and i think the majotiry of people thing it is one of the most amazing things anyone could ever do

    I agree it is but alas there are that do and in a post magdelne laundries Ireland it is a practice which is not supported.


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    #285
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    john_aero wrote: »
    not to sound bad but if they know this and willingly have sex then how mature are they. if they are not mature enough to know what the consequences are then keep legs closed and your mahood zipped up

    Oh I agree which is why we need sex and sexual health education and better access to contraceptions for young people.


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    #286
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    eveie wrote: »
    look it up, they are being counted because it is an abornmal amount being carried out

    I know they are counted, but they don't contribute to the population estimate. What is significant is that the birth rate is declining, relative to the death rate. Yes, I have looked it up (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-russia.html) and if you look at live births, there are about 200,000 more now than 10 years ago.


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    #287
    john_aero
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭john_aero


    problem is it seems to be thoes who think they are mature and above everyone else that need abortions of the younger age, correct me if i am wrong though. i think no matter how much education you give some people they just do what they like and then want the easyw ay out when it goes wrong for them


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    #288
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    eveie wrote: »
    parts of the world are overpopulated parts are under populated. take russia for example they are facing a crisis at the minute because for every child that is born 2 are aborted, there population is negitave, they are going to face major problems in a number of years.

    Then Russia needs to foster policies to encourage people to have children if current conditions are so bleak they are choosing to have abortions.

    Iceland and Finland do this, from longer parental leave, state funded childcare to awarding women who have 4 children an national honour.

    They need family and child supportive programs to make the turn around.


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    #289
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    john_aero wrote: »
    problem is it seems to be thoes who think they are mature and above everyone else that need abortions of the younger age, correct me if i am wrong though. i think no matter how much education you give some people they just do what they like and
    then want the easyw ay out when it goes wrong for them


    The statics show it is not just young women in their late teens and early twenties
    there are also women in their late 30s to late 40s that have abortions as they do not which any more children as their youngest child is already a teen and the lack of comprehensive contraceptive coverage available when a woman starts the menopause plays a part in this.


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    #290
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    eveie wrote: »
    Thaedydal in all due respeact i dont think it is rerquired for you to know excatly how i am involved in the PLC but i am involved i am not willing to say how.

    As you are clearly on here pushing your groups political agenda, then yes, this site does have the right to know what is really behind your comments.

    This thread is soley for it's members to post their personal opinions.

    You are here pushing a particular political agenda from an organised group. That is not welcome here.

    Beruthiel.
    Smoderator.


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    #291
    john_aero
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭john_aero


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    As you are clearly on here pushing your groups political agenda, then yes, this site does have the right to know what is really behind your comments.

    This thread is soley for it's members to post their personal opinions.

    You are here pushing a particular political agenda from an organised group. That is not welcome here.

    Beruthiel.
    Smoderator.

    this is not politicaly correct. we can discuss our opinions but do not have to divulge are occupation or position in our jobs just to satisify members curiousity to our opinions/experience etc.


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    #292
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    john_aero wrote: »
    this is not politicaly correct. we can discuss our opinions but do not have to divulge are occupation or position in our jobs just to satisify members curiousity to our opinions/experience etc.


    If you have a problem or query with the way the site is run, take it to feedback or helpdesk under the SYS menu. Please don't take the thread off topic, thanks.


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    #293
    john_aero
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭john_aero


    WindSock wrote: »
    If you have a problem or query with the way the site is run, take it to feedback or helpdesk under the SYS menu. Please don't take the thread off topic, thanks.

    just replying to a previous comment


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    #294
    lostinnappies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭lostinnappies


    murder is murder, no matter what the circumstances i would continue with a pregnancy having had two of my own you dont know what you are killing until you see it.


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    #295
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    lostinnappies wrote: »
    murder is murder, no matter what the circumstances i would continue with a pregnancy having had two of my own you dont know what you are killing until you see it.


    Please don't use words like Murder. Inflammatory language doesnt go down too well in these types of threads and is insensitive to others.


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    #296
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I have two of my own and still support a woman's right to choose.


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    #297
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 4,011 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    I believe that women have the right to choices when they are in a crises pregnancy and those should be supported, legal and non hypocritical choices.



    That's fine, but it is not accurate to call yourself 'not pro-abortion' as you did.

    I can understand an argument someone who is not pro-abortion in the abstract but who might acknowledge genuinely exceptional situation where an abortion is the best of a number of unpalatable options.

    But you support abortion on demand when a pregnancy is inconvenient enough to be deemed a 'crisis pregnancy' (what a brilliantly elastic term!).

    Clearly you are pro-abortion.


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    #298
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    ok im really annoyed now, i am NOT pushing ANY political agenda, these are my opinions because of my opinions i am involved in an organisation which has the same opinions as me. you have no entitlement to knw what or who i work for as i am NOT pushing any agenda
    i could easily ask who is Thaedyal working for???? but i dont see how that matters. this is why this thread is bias.
    also the inflammatory language you talk about is sensitive for a reason isnt it??? however i will respect that you do not wish to have those words aired here.
    i have not been asked to comment on here from the organisation, i have been a member of boards for a few months, i came aross this thread and as ive obvioulsy very strong views on the subject i wanted to voice MY opinion which i am entitled to do!!!! if you as a moderator have a problem with this well then your just being bias


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    #299
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 4,011 ✭✭✭Rosita


    WindSock wrote: »
    Please don't use words like Murder. Inflammatory language doesnt go down too well in these types of threads and is insensitive to others.


    But others have written about how the anti-abortion side need to see how the pro-abortion people think about the matter. Surely all that poster was doing is showing the pro-abortion side how th eanti-abortion side sees it. Many pro-abortionists appear to think that the others simply want to stymie choice per se, as if it was a decision whether to have cheese & onion or salt & vinegar.


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    #300
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I am a realist who hopes some day we will no longer need and use abortion.
    eveie wrote: »
    i could easily ask who is Thaedyal working for???? but i dont see how that matters.

    I have no issue answering that,
    I am currently and have been for the last 8 years a full time stay at home mother to my two children.
    I don't have anything to hide.


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    #301
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    but your answer in the mean time is to legalise it, in other words to take a step back. abortion is a violation of a womens body and of a childs body simple as. i am not all about the unborn child i am concerned for the vunerable women who find themselves in this situation what they dont need is violation.
    its funny that im being made to look as if im some hard core political ass, politics does not come into my argument. i am concerned for the wel being of mother and child, im concerned that so many women do not understand the risks of abortion and im concerned that so many innnocent children are not given the chance to experience life


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