Abortion

WindSock

Dragan wrote: »

Hey Rosita,

it is normally best to report posts like this that you may have an objection to. This way they are brought to the attention of the Forum Moderators, threads are more likely to remain civil and stay open for longer debate.

You can always make a post an offer your advice as well, but if you see something you consider to be truly objectionable in a post then site wide Mods would appreciate users reporting them.:)

Well said, thanks Dragan.

Highly debated topics like this one have the potential to get nasty quick so it is appreciated if the arguing and hot headed replies are kept to a minimum. You are welcome to your opinions but it is prefered if you stay on the topic and keep others sensitivities in mind. Therefore words like murder and killing are not tolerated. If you wish to discuss abortion=murder then please go to the Humanities forum. There are I am sure lots of Women reading this thread that have exprienced abortion first hand and wish to come here to discuss their experiences without these words being thrown at them.

Rosita

Dragan wrote: »

Hey Rosita,

it is normally best to report posts like this that you may have an objection to. This way they are brought to the attention of the Forum Moderators, threads are more likely to remain civil and stay open for longer debate.

You can always make a post an offer your advice as well, but if you see something you consider to be truly objectionable in a post then site wide Mods would appreciate users reporting them.:)

I appreciate the role of the moderators but I felt the objection to that one was motivated by severe disagreement rather than its contents being particularly objectionable.

If something was genuinely appalling and/or defamatory I would report it, but I felt that was way over the top.

lostinnappies

WindSock wrote: »

Please don't use words like Murder. Inflammatory language doesnt go down too well in these types of threads and is insensitive to others.

my apologies ... what should i call it ... not being smart, really what should i call it? I dont like to use a desensitised word like abortion because it doesnt show the true horror of what it really is especially for a baby who is past the first trimester.

lostinnappies

WindSock wrote: »

Well said, thanks Dragan.

Highly debated topics like this one have the potential to get nasty quick so it is appreciated if the arguing and hot headed replies are kept to a minimum. You are welcome to your opinions but it is prefered if you stay on the topic and keep others sensitivities in mind. Therefore words like murder and killing are not tolerated. If you wish to discuss abortion=murder then please go to the Humanities forum. There are I am sure lots of Women reading this thread that have exprienced abortion first hand and wish to come here to discuss their experiences without these words being thrown at them.

im sorry if i cause offence .. really i am ... i understand that some people dont feel that to keep an unwanted pregnacey is something they can do and that the word murder could upset them. But on the other hand the reason i used it is that it is my opinion that this is the case, and only my opinion. Im all for freedom of choice, choose to be celebate, chose to use the pill, chose to used different types of contraception, chose to be stronger then your attacker ... chose to give a wonderful gift to those who cant have children. It is your choice, as is my opinion on what it actually is in my eyes ... i cant help that im sorry

tbh

eveie wrote: »

yes Ireland is the only european country that has not legalised abortion

incorrect. Abortion is legal in Ireland in certain circumstances. The supreme court ruled in 1992, in respect of the "x" case, that "if it is established . . . that there is a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother, which can only be avoided by the termination of her pregnancy, such termination is permissible." This is the same in Northern Ireland.

While I had respected your arguments up to this, I now have to wonder if you're just assuming you are correct and have little actual knowledge of the facts.

Piste

lostinnappies wrote: »

chose to be stronger then your attacker

Ah hang on now, that's a bit OTT, is it a woman's fault if she gets pregnant as a result of rape because she didn't "choose" to be stronger than her attacker?


I think we should stick to "abortion" instead of "murder". Abortion is a neutral word, it just refers to ending the pregnancy, calling a spade a spade. Murder on the other hand is much more evokative and has a definite pro-life slant, there are many pro-choice people out there who don't believe abortion is murder.

A lot of people on this thread are equating a foetus to a newborn child and saying "sure if we legalise abortion we should legalise killing newborns" but there is a massive difference between the two! Foetuses are not individuals, if you remove a mother's incubation (womb) then the foetus will die. If you leave a newborn in a room on their own for an hour they wont die. I see abortion as the woman choosing to not have to incubate a foetus and I think she has every right to do so.

LolaLuv

Piste wrote: »

Ah hang on now, that's a bit OTT, is it a woman's fault if she gets pregnant as a result of rape because she didn't "choose" to be stronger than her attacker?

+1. I really hope lostinnappies "chooses" to explain herself, because as things stand now that's one of the most offensive things I've ever read. I suppose you also believe that women like it?

lostinnappies

Piste wrote: »

Ah hang on now, that's a bit OTT, is it a woman's fault if she gets pregnant as a result of rape because she didn't "choose" to be stronger than her attacker?


I think we should stick to "abortion" instead of "murder". Abortion is a neutral word, it just refers to ending the pregnancy, calling a spade a spade. Murder on the other hand is much more evokative and has a definite pro-life slant, there are many pro-choice people out there who don't believe abortion is murder.

A lot of people on this thread are equating a foetus to a newborn child and saying "sure if we legalise abortion we should legalise killing newborns" but there is a massive difference between the two! Foetuses are not individuals, if you remove a mother's incubation (womb) then the foetus will die. If you leave a newborn in a room on their own for an hour they wont die. I see abortion as the woman choosing to not have to incubate a foetus and I think she has every right to do so.

Ok, perhaps murder is too strong for some ... i would use it in conversation with people because of the fact that abortion is neutral.

As for the "choose to be stronger then your attacker" comment, dont get me wrong, what i ment is you could choose to be stronger then your attacker by allowing something positive to come from such a horrible experience... not that if you had an abortion you wouldnt be stronger then them, i do fully understand why a woman would have an abortion. Being pro-life even i would consider it.

lostinnappies

PillyPen wrote: »

+1. I really hope lostinnappies "chooses" to explain herself, because as things stand now that's one of the most offensive things I've ever read. I suppose you also believe that women like it?

dont be so flippant

Nevyn

Actually abortion is a loaded term but I have tried to be fair and use that term rather then
the phrase termination, or termination of pregnancy.

Piste

Oh right, you meant morally stronger, it really came across as physically, which is why Pillypen and I reacted that way.

Piste

Do abortion and termnation not mean the same thing? As in they both mean stop. I suppose abortion is generally used as ending pregnancy whereas terminate is used in more contexts.

lostinnappies

Piste wrote: »

Oh right, you meant morally stronger, it really came across as physically, which is why Pillypen and I reacted that way.

ah that makes more sence,

lostinnappies

Thaedydal wrote: »

Actually abortion is a loaded term but I have tried to be fair and use that term rather then
the phrase termination, or termination of pregnancy.

see now, i dont know why it is that people would have a problem with either of these, i mean its not as harsh as what i called it and in fact most medical professions call it a termination rather then an abortion. So why is it ok for people to go ahead and do "that" (for want of a word) and then say its offensive to call it what it is .... i just dont get it. I suppose I am a blunt person by nature so i dont get the whole "pc" thing.

LolaLuv

lostinnappies wrote: »

ah that makes more sence,

Yep, all apologies. Good to know pro-lifers aren't that crazy.

Zaph

lostinnappies wrote: »

So why is it ok for people to go ahead and do "that" (for want of a word) and then say its offensive to call it what it is .... i just dont get it. I suppose I am a blunt person by nature so i dont get the whole "pc" thing.

It's not a case of being PC, some people don't view abortion as murder so "calling it what it is" in your eyes is not necessarily what it is in their's. In the interests of having a rational, civilised debate, we prefer not to have the word murder used as it sidetracks the argument away from the real issues as people become embroiled in arguments about language. It really isn't anything more sinister than that.

LolaLuv

Zaph wrote: »

It's not a case of being PC, some people don't view abortion as murder so "calling it what it is" in your eyes is not necessarily what it is in their's. In the interests of having a rational, civilised debate, we prefer not to have the word murder used as it sidetracks the argument away from the real issues as people become embroiled in arguments about language. It really isn't anything more sinister than that.

Also, you could be calling it "murder" around someone who has had one and doesn't need the judgment.

Zaph

PillyPen wrote: »

Also, you could be calling it "murder" around someone who has had one and doesn't need the judgment.

There is that too.

lostinnappies

Zaph wrote: »

It's not a case of being PC, some people don't view abortion as murder so "calling it what it is" in your eyes is not necessarily what it is in their's. In the interests of having a rational, civilised debate, we prefer not to have the word murder used as it sidetracks the argument away from the real issues as people become embroiled in arguments about language. It really isn't anything more sinister than that.

fair enough i get the whole language thing really i do. Im not saying the word i called it so i dont offend people, but not to call it ....em.... what the medical professions call it, seems to me to be a bit over sensitive. I dont know if you agree with this or not

But yes back to the point

lostinnappies

PillyPen wrote: »

Yep, all apologies. Good to know pro-lifers aren't that crazy.

lol your funny

Zaph

lostinnappies wrote: »

fair enough i get the whole language thing really i do. Im not saying the word i called it so i dont offend people, but not to call it ....em.... what the medical professions call it, seems to me to be a bit over sensitive. I dont know if you agree with this or not

But yes back to the point

I don't have a particular issue with the word termination, personally I don't feel it's a particularly emotive word in this context. However maybe some people do, I really don't know but, here at least, abortion seems to be a generally accepted neutral word that won't have people fighting over it so that's fine by me. To be honest, people can call it anything they like as far as I'm concerned, as long as it means that the issue can be discussed in a polite and rational manner without any hysterics from anyone over semantics.

Peared

Zaph wrote: »

It's not a case of being PC, some people don't view abortion as murder so "calling it what it is" in your eyes is not necessarily what it is in their's. In the interests of having a rational, civilised debate, we prefer not to have the word murder used as it sidetracks the argument away from the real issues as people become embroiled in arguments about language. It really isn't anything more sinister than that.

Zaph I have not been involved in the discussion up until now but I feel strongly that in the interests of rational civilised debate as you put it, the use of the word murder should be allowed. You say it takes away from the real issues but surely this is the real core issue - the fact that some people regard this as murder and some dont.

I feel it is censoring in a pro choice direction. (I know this is not a free speech website but I mean censoring in the context of this discussion)

People get very upset about the thought of what they view as a life being ended. So it's ok for some people to say 'actually no, it's not a life at all. This thing you regard as a baby is nothing but cells and removing it is an ok thing to do' but it's not ok for others to say 'hang on, I view that as the intentional ending of a life and therefore as murder).

Is the reason for debate not to hear and respect opposing views? So some views are ok but others are not?

JC 2K3

I don't think there's a problem with the word "murder" in this debate in the right context, but since a pro-life/anti-abortion stance implicitly implies that someone thinks abortion is murder, I can't really think of a use for the word in this debate apart from unnecessary, emotive and inflammatory rhetoric.

Zaph

Peared wrote: »

Zaph I have not been involved in the discussion up until now but I feel strongly that in the interests of rational civilised debate as you put it, the use of the word murder should be allowed. You say it takes away from the real issues but surely this is the real core issue - the fact that some people regard this as murder and some dont.

I feel it is censoring in a pro choice direction. (I know this is not a free speech website but I mean censoring in the context of this discussion)

People get very upset about the thought of what they view as a life being ended. So it's ok for some people to say 'actually no, it's not a life at all. This thing you regard as a baby is nothing but cells and removing it is an ok thing to do' but it's not ok for others to say 'hang on, I view that as the intentional ending of a life and therefore as murder).

Is the reason for debate not to hear and respect opposing views? So some views are ok but others are not?

And I respectfully disagree with your argument. Censorship doesn't enter into it at all, it's simply an effort to keep the discussion from spilling over into mudslinging and emotional outbursts purely over a particular word. The topic itself arouses enough passions without throwing the choice of language into the mix. Asking people not to use the word isn't a case of not offending sensibilities on one side. Murder is an emotive word in itself, and there may be women on this thread who have had abortions. Allowing the use of the word is effectively calling any such women murderers, and this is not the place for such judgements to be passed on people.

For the record, I'll state my position on the whole debate, seeing as you feel that some views are ok and others are not. I actually don't feel strongly enough about the abortion issue one way or another, to the point where I genuinely don't have an opinion on it. I can see why some people feel it's wrong, and equally I can see why some people believe it's ok. To me there are valid arguments on both sides, but neither side has managed to convince me that they're right, or even that the other side is wrong. I have opinions, some quite strongly held, on other social or moral issues, but this just isn't one of them.

Nerin

Peared wrote: »

Zaph I have not been involved in the discussion up until now but I feel strongly that in the interests of rational civilised debate as you put it, the use of the word murder should be allowed. You say it takes away from the real issues but surely this is the real core issue - the fact that some people regard this as murder and some dont.

I feel it is censoring in a pro choice direction. (I know this is not a free speech website but I mean censoring in the context of this discussion)

People get very upset about the thought of what they view as a life being ended. So it's ok for some people to say 'actually no, it's not a life at all. This thing you regard as a baby is nothing but cells and removing it is an ok thing to do' but it's not ok for others to say 'hang on, I view that as the intentional ending of a life and therefore as murder).

Is the reason for debate not to hear and respect opposing views? So some views are ok but others are not?

Just no. Basically,if i go into a christianity thread and say,nicely,that i believe that such and such is wrong,if i do it without inflammatory language,it would be fine. I remember when someone said jesus was technically a zombie. Now,if you think about it,you could say that,but it was inflammatory,and the user was banned. Why do you want the people who don't see it as murder,to put up with the done to death (pardon the unintended pun) arguement/battlecry of the prolife side. The use of the word is inflammatory,when used in this context,and constantly giving out when told by mods to stop,isn't helping the thread,and if you have a real grievance,feedback/helpdesk. Of course,i'm off topic now. So i should also be given out to. As for this debate,its always going around in circles,in every thread its been in. Its going no where fast.

Peared

That's fair enough.

I disagree but I have said my piece and will leave it there.

I do think any idea of a proper debate is out the window when people in one camp are told what they can and cannot say for fear of offending others but the others are not given any such limitations.

But... leavin it there.

Zaph

Peared wrote: »

I do think any idea of a proper debate is out the window when people in one camp are told what they can and cannot say for fear of offending others but the others are not given any such limitations.

If you feel that anyone on the prolife side is called a name that you believe is out of order, please use the report post button, that's what it's there for. All reported posts are taken seriously and, should the mods agree that a poster needs to be taken to task over inflammatory language they have used, appropriate measures will be taken.

lostinnappies

Nerin wrote: »

Just no. Basically,if i go into a christianity thread and say,nicely,that i believe that such and such is wrong,if i do it without inflammatory language,it would be fine. I remember when someone said jesus was technically a zombie. Now,if you think about it,you could say that,but it was inflammatory,and the user was banned. Why do you want the people who don't see it as murder,to put up with the done to death (pardon the unintended pun) arguement/battlecry of the prolife side. The use of the word is inflammatory,when used in this context,and constantly giving out when told by mods to stop,isn't helping the thread,and if you have a real grievance,feedback/helpdesk. Of course,i'm off topic now. So i should also be given out to. As for this debate,its always going around in circles,in every thread its been in. Its going no where fast.

OH MY GOD, im sorry ok. geez i said it when i was stating an opinion which is what i thought the whole point of the website was, i oppologised when i realised how offended people get and tried not to say the actual word again. It wasnt ment to be inflammatory or agressive in anyway ... just my opinion, isnt that what the op asked for? im just not going to bother posting on this website again

Nevyn

Nerin wrote: »

As for this debate,its always going around in circles,in every thread its been in. Its going no where fast.

Actually this thread was no set up as a debate and what we have seen in thread that we have not seen in other thread in other forums are posters come forward and saying that yes they have had an abortion and others saying that in certain circumstance they would have one.

Nerin

Thaedydal wrote: »

Actually this thread was no set up as a debate and what we have seen in thread that we have not seen in other thread in other forums are posters come forward and saying that yes they have had an abortion and others saying that in certain circumstance they would have one.

This thread has moved so fast since this morning,i haven't read everything,(i'm still on the mobile) but much respect for those that did speak about their experiences. Its a tough thing,and hopefully what they said will help other people/friends of other people going through the same thing. I know the first time a friend of mine was going through it i had no idea how to help.