Abortion

taram · 26-08-2008 1:48am

I've always figured if I got pregnant I'd be able to emotionally learn to cope with the child, as I did a number of other life upheavels. This was a personal choice, not political.

If forced to take a stand, I'm pro-choice. I believe most abortions should never have gotten to that stage, but people are people and mistakes and accidents happen, we need MAP OTC asap (whoo abbreviations), better sex ed, cheaper family planning, more communication betweeen people, medical professionals and counsellors, no matter what the outcome of the decision to abort or not. These women aren't bad, they have a difficult decision, and like it or not, a lot of them are better off for aborting. I know lots aren't, but that's what happens in such a life-changing crux of a decision.

Basically, like has been said already, ideally we'd all be using contraception flawlessly, having kids when we wanted and not a day sooner. Also ideally we'd live in a world where the only abortions would be for medical reasons (mother has cancer, can live if get radiation but child can't survive that etc.). I believe in these cases the rights of the mother outweight the child's without a doubt.

At the end of the day, I'd never abort unless medically needed but I'm emotionally/financially strong enough, and healthy enough to carry a baby to term. But by jeeves, those pro-life posters shaming women and showing dead fetuses are sickening. A friend had a late misscarriage and the fetus poster made her cry for weeks after. Horrible propaganda.

eveie · 26-08-2008 9:31am

il hold my hands up i was completely wrong about ireland being the only european country that doesnt have legalised abortions, poland and malta. poland allows abortions if the mothers life is in risk but that includes such things as if shes going bilnd, and in malta abortions are completely illegal.
alot of people use the argument of " but i couldnt supposrt the baby, i was under huge financial pressure,family problems,depression"
now if you went to see a doctor because you were suffering from depression and he/she suggested that you remove your lower abdomon and that'l sure it.......im sure each and every one fo you would tell him to pee off. the thing is aborting a baby is not getting "rid" of any problem, a person who is suffering from depression needs professional help.
also some pople are concerned with the risks associated with child birth Ireland is the safest conutry in the world to give birth, and thats coming from the UN
as well as the MAP theres a aborticafacient pill called 486,this pill has killed 18 women worldwide, yet the head of the I.F.P.A refuses to acknowledge this, where is his concern for womens health? woemn dont seem to understand that the majority of these organisations were set up for profit, they are making millions from terminating pregnancies every year, they dont really care for you, if they did they'd give youi proper support and wouldnt violate your body.
also it is scientifictly documentated and agreed that from the monent of conception there exists a human being, if you dont deny that they you must believe the world is flat.
i am not for one minute condeming any women who chooses to have an abortion i am however saying that abortion is wrong (would like to say something else but im not allowed to here)

eveie · 26-08-2008 9:40am

"But by jeeves, those pro-life posters shaming women and showing dead fetuses are sickening. A friend had a late misscarriage and the fetus poster made her cry for weeks after." Horrible propaganda. quote by Taram
ok your friend had a miscarraige not an abortion, the nature of these pictures are of abortion, they are not there to be compared to that of a miscarried child.ok im not hughly in favour of these posters although i dont see a whole lot of difference between them and an advertisment where we see very graphic images from car crashes, i had a friend who died in a very similar accident to one of the advertisments, i dont throw up blue murder every time i see it. what people are doing is avoiding the truth, these pictures show the true extent of abortion which many women dont realise. these pictures are not propaganda, theses pictures are factual pictures, there not rumors or mis leading in any way. i am not in total favour of them myself but dont say their propaganda.

LB6 · 26-08-2008 9:44am

I'm so happy for you Eveie that everything is so black and white for you. Please God - you won't have any the issues that many women have had that put them down the road to abortion. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But please clarify your sentence. Abortion Is wrong for YOU - not necessarily for everybody else!

eveie · 26-08-2008 9:57am

as i stated before its in scientifictly proven that from the moment of conception there exists a human being, therefore the taking away of life from this human being is wrong, no one can argue with that.
i think alot of women are pushed into situatuions, no body can see where im coming from. i wouldnt say this subject is black and white for me, im not here putting down women, for Gods sake im a women myslef, ive sympathy and empathy for women in this position
and you know, you dont know me or know what ive gone through so maybe you shouldnt judge me, as i havent judged anyone here

JC 2K3 · 26-08-2008 10:06am

eveie wrote: »

also it is scientifictly documentated and agreed that from the monent of conception there exists a human being, if you dont deny that they you must believe the world is flat.

Please back up this claim with some proof. I think any scientific study that declared life to start at conception would have been rather groundbreaking and that I'd have heard about it.

Or are you really so simple that you can't understand that the question of not only where life begins but what the definition of life actually is and why and when we should protect a human's right to life is a hugely complex philosophical question rather than coming down to some simple scientific fact.

LB6 · 26-08-2008 10:18am

I've never said I knew what you went through, or claim to know you - nor did i ever say I judged you. I've no argument with you - everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Nerin · 26-08-2008 10:53am

eveie wrote: »

as i stated before its in scientifictly proven that from the moment of conception there exists a human being, therefore the taking away of life from this human being is wrong, no one can argue with that.
i think alot of women are pushed into situatuions, no body can see where im coming from. i wouldnt say this subject is black and white for me, im not here putting down women, for Gods sake im a women myslef, ive sympathy and empathy for women in this position
and you know, you dont know me or know what ive gone through so maybe you shouldnt judge me, as i havent judged anyone here

1-where has it been scientifically proven that from the moment of conception its a human life? Would one not take into account philosophical and religious ideas as well when one tries to prove such a thing (just a side question,also,can be seen as a trap,so careful now

) 2- i'd agree that some people would be pushed,either by family or partner,into having an abortion, and thats just wrong. I wouldn't speculate it as a very high number though. (of course,i wouldn't throw the idea out,if statistics from an independent non political/religious agenda group showed them to me) 3-i don't think anyone is judging you,although some would be getting different ideas about you from your posts,such is the interweb. 4-nothing is black and white really,but if nothing is black and white,why would you (not you,a collective you) deny women abortions?

GrumPy · 26-08-2008 10:57am

Abortions ftw imo. Sorry to be so blunt, but Irish women should have the option.

Nevyn · 26-08-2008 11:06am

eveie wrote: »

il hold my hands up i was completely wrong about ireland being the only european country that doesnt have legalised abortions,

Ok.

eveie wrote: »

as well as the MAP theres a aborticafacient

Hang on, The Emergency contraception Pill which is known as the Morning After Pill does not cause an abortion.

The medical definition of an aborticafacient is something that causes the end of a pregnancy.

The medical definition of pregnancy states it occurs when the embryo implants it's self in side the womb of a woman.

There for a woman may have conceived but if the embryo passes from her body she has not be pregnant.

The Emergency contraception Pill prevents implantation, it prevents pregnancy,
it is post conception contraception and legal in this country as it does not cause the end of a pregnancy and is not an aborticafacient.

The medical and legal professions and bodies of this country have determined it as legal.

eveie wrote: »

pill called 486,this pill has killed 18 women worldwide,

That would be mifepristone also known as RU486 or the Abortion pill.
It causes abortions and it no legal here.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_pill_RU486_(mifepristone)?Open

Yes, women who got it with out a medical consult and prescription,
there are websites aimed at shipping this drug to desperate women in crises pregnancy, hell there is one aimed at women in this country to ship it here for something like 50 euros which is 10th of the price of an abortion.

As with any prescription's medication it is up to a dr to decide if it safe for a person to take and people who order medication off the internet are taking their life in their hands.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/women-warned-over-buying-abortion-pill-online-1332273.html

The irish medical board made a statement about it back in March this year.

eveie wrote: »

yet the head of the I.F.P.A refuses to acknowledge this,

The I.F.P.A. and it's drs do not despence or prescribe mifepristone also known as RU486.

eveie wrote: »

where is his concern for womens health? woemn dont seem to understand that the majority of these organisations were set up for profit, they are making millions from terminating pregnancies every year, they dont really care for you, if they did they'd give youi proper support and wouldnt violate your body.

http://www.ifpa.ie/about/index.html

About IFPA

The IFPA (Irish Family Planning Association) is a national voluntary organisation and registered charity which has been pioneering reproductive health and rights in Ireland since 1969.

The brave women and men who founded the Association were concerned with changing the social and legal environment in Ireland so that family planning information and services would be available to everyone.

IF it was not for the I.F.P.A. contaception would be still illegal in this country.

eveie wrote: »

i am not for one minute condeming any women who chooses to have an abortion i am however saying that abortion is wrong (would like to say something else but im not allowed to here)

Even if it was totally proven tomorrrow that the those who are pro life are right there would still be women who would choose an abortion.
Why because they just do not want to be pregnant and give birth to a child.

john_aero · 26-08-2008 11:19am

Thaedydal wrote: »

Why because they just do not want to be pregnant and give birth to a child.

well to me there easier way, close your legs or get the job doen so you can tget pregnant.

cant take all the fun and when goes wrong take the easy way out.

there is times whe abortion is needed but if you dont want child and yet still having sex then your just being careless

Nevyn · 26-08-2008 11:27am

Tubal ligations or female sterilisation is not advialible to women in this country carte blanch.
Even privately, one of the fun things about how catholic this place is.

If you do not have children you can not get a referal to have it done.
If you have two children you must be 35 before you apply and even then it might not happen.

I know someone who is 35 has two children who are special needs children and she could not get a referal to have her tubes tied. She got to the see the head obgyn for her health board area who told her that God made him a dr so he could help bring more children into this world not less.

So if a woman really wants to have her tubes done and doesn't want to wait until she is over 35 and start the paper work trail that can take two years she as to go to the U.K.
or another country.

Dragan · 26-08-2008 11:28am

eveie wrote: »

as i stated before its in scientifictly proven that from the moment of conception there exists a human being, therefore the taking away of life from this human being is wrong, no one can argue with that.
i think alot of women are pushed into situatuions, no body can see where im coming from. i wouldnt say this subject is black and white for me, im not here putting down women, for Gods sake im a women myslef, ive sympathy and empathy for women in this position
and you know, you dont know me or know what ive gone through so maybe you shouldnt judge me, as i havent judged anyone here

I have done my best to stay out of this but i really, really want you to post me links to these studies.

I mean, really, or else i'm filling you away into the "ignore" pile to be honest.

And that word that you so long to use means you have judged a lot of people i think.

Nerin · 26-08-2008 11:28am

Easy there thaed,check your quote,myself and evie have somehow melged in your post *confused* as for the keep your legs closed and get a job. Thats one of those comments that just deserves to be ignored. Oh,wait

humans make mistakes,thats what it is to be human. I'm sure you're perfect and all,but cut other folk some slack please aero. Have you tried getting a job at the moment being 'unskilled'. Theres feck all out there,and whats out there is ridiculous and the pay is terrible.

Nevyn · 26-08-2008 11:32am

Nerin wrote: »

Easy there thaed,check your quote,

Sorry about that sweet cheeks, all mended.

panda100 · 26-08-2008 1:10pm

I would like to see this thread return to its original routes where its real Irish women talking about the reality of abortion and pregnancy.

Anywho, just a vague reply to Eveie, Eveie like you I used to be quite a vocal pro lifer,(as the few here from UCD will remember

)
However,Its hard to argue that you dont have your head in the sand a bit about this issue. The reality is that thousands of women from Ireland are travelling abroad to get this operation. I would prefer to see Irish women availing of free, abortion services in Ireland without the distress of travelling overseas and paying ludicrous amounts of money.
I think its very unfair to think pro choice= pro abortion. The most prominant pro Choice groups here called 'Choice Ireland' stands for a lot more than legalising abortion:

Free Access to Accurate Information on All Crisis Pregnancy Options
Legislation Regulating Information Provided by Crisis-Pregnancy Centres
Immediate Legislation for the X and C Cases
Proper Sex-Education
Free Access to Multiple Forms of Contraception Including the Morning-After Pill
Free and Legal Abortion on Demand
High-Quality Post-Abortion Care
End to Stigma Surrounding Abortion
Practical Support for Women Seeking Abortion
End to Stigma Surrounding Sexual Health and Contraceptive Needs
Increased Support for Single and Low-Income Parents
Increased Protection for Working Mothers
Free Access to Quality Childcare
End to Stigma Surrounding Single Parenthood
Choice in the Method of Childbirth
Creation of More Feminist Health Centres

These demands are far from being soley pro-abortion and are real,practical steps to aid women regards pregnancy and sexual health.

eveie wrote: »

i am not in the slightest bit impressed that you think that ive used scare tactics!
it is true and documented that there IS a direct link between certain types of cancer and abortion. also research carried out in sweeden and findland has discovered that a women who has had an abortion is 6 times more likely to commit suicide. they are more likely to be drug abusers etc.

the major issue people have with for instance "youth defence" is their use of graphic pictures that show aborted babies. people seem to have a major issue with this? why? many people have lost a loved one through a car accident and find it very distressing to watch a advertisment showing the effects of speeding etc yet they dont kick up blue murder about it. and as we all know some of these advertisments are very graphic,and in fact they use scare tactics to try and prevent us from drink driving/speeding.now i will say there is a time and a place for this and i do not agree with many of the things that they do.
if you were to show a child these pictures they would ask "what happened the baby" if a child can reconiose one of these beings as a baby then why cant we?
i take great offfence in Thaedyal saying that i am scare mongering, i want an apology. anything i have stated here is facts, i am not altering them in anyway.
when a women comes face to face with a crisis pregnancy do yo really think she is of the right mind frame to make the right decision, that is why its called a crisis, we do things in a crisis that we would never consider otherwise. unless you have evidence to show that what i said is a lie then you dont have the right to tell me im scare mongering. this really annoyes me, if women knew the side affects of abortion i believe many would choose not to have one.

There is a huge amount of scare mongering in this post and from Irish pro life groups in general. Ive attached a copy of my experience at a well advertised national crisis pregnancy agency I visited last year, where I was quite shocked at the lies and horrific images I was shown to dissuade me from having an abortion.
Abortion does not cause breast cancer,depression and suicide. If so, please explain how Ireland has the one of the highest rates of Breast cancer and Suicide in the EU and the highest rate of females who self harm, yet abortion is not legal here?

eveie · 26-08-2008 1:35pm

just because thousands of women are choosing abortion does not make it right, if thats your logic we could say that drug dealers should be allowed become legal.
im very busy im work at the minute but i promise you post up links from where you can find this information.
and i am not judging women i am sayingthat abortion is wrong by saying that i am not judging women but abortion its-self
the i.f.p.a are looking to make on demand abortion legal in this country, yes i am well aware they do not provide 486 but that is something their interested in and when questioned about the 18 women dying as a direct consquence of it they chose to ignore the question.
i would also say to people here(pro-choice) that as far as i know not once has religion come into any argument so why are you all bringing it up, i would personallyu not consider myself very religious and i have not brough God into anything.
also i know that everyone makes mistakes but why lat a baby die because of the mistakes you make.
oh and someone said about lets deal with the relity of pregnancy and abortion, i am dealing with the reality of abortion

WindSock · 26-08-2008 1:43pm

eveie wrote: »

just because thousands of women are choosing abortion does not make it right, if thats your logic we could say that drug dealers should be allowed become legal.

Fine by me so. Lets make it legal and safer for the people that are doing it because making it illegal makes it unsafe and obviously doesn't stop them.

That aside, how come the overwhelming majority of Women (and Men) I talk to in this country seem to think that abortion should be legalised here, yet the referenda keep turning out No's?
Maybe I should talk to more people?

John Mason · 26-08-2008 1:54pm

Out of all the people i know what have had abortions

None of them have ever felt sudicial, got breast cancer, split with their partners or regreted their decision.

So if you arent speaking for 10 of my friends.

they all feel like they received good counselling.

(i just done a quick email poll)

tallaght01 · 26-08-2008 1:56pm

Windsock, I think there's a little bit of a stigma attached to being anti-abortion. It's, ironically, a bit like saying you're a feminist. Peple asociate it with a degree of radiclism, or with being right-wing. Therefore, a lot of young people don't admit it so easily.

I personally feel it's easier to admit to being pro-choice/pro-abortion. I'm personally anti-abortion, but I find people often jump down your throat as soon as you say that. So it's easier to say nothing, even though I'm probably more liberal in my approach to abortion, at a practical level, than most pro-choice people.

I also don't know why people are surprised that these threads turn into heated debates. They should. That's life. Heated is good. And sometimes we loose the rag and say something a bit cutting. So what? Just suck it up and accept that, to some people, abortion is murder. These people will get upset at that thought. We also need to accept that some people find the idea of carrying a pregnancy to term when the child is unwanted to be equally offensive. Reporting posts coz you don't agree with their points, or calling people murderers isn't really neccesary, but when a topic like abortion comes up, it's gonna happen.

I personally think the thread is pretty civilised, compared to real-life conversations between the 2 sides of this debate.

tallaght01 · 26-08-2008 2:02pm

irishbird wrote: »

None of them have ever felt sudicial, got breast cancer, split with their partners or regreted their decision.

I'm no expert in this area, but I'm pretty sure that all the GOOD data shows no association between abortion and breat cancer.

marti101 · 26-08-2008 2:06pm

ntlbell wrote: »

My daughter is coming up to this age and as much as it would tear my heart out if she fell pregnant at that age as long as her life was not at risk I would want her to have the child.

But really you wouldnt have as ay as it would be her choice and not yours.

Nevyn · 26-08-2008 2:13pm

WindSock wrote: »

That aside, how come the overwhelming majority of Women (and Men) I talk to in this country seem to think that abortion should be legalised here, yet the referenda keep turning out No's?

Who many of those people are registered to vote, do so and would do ?

A lot of the younger generations ie those who are in the 18 to 30ish bracket are so disenfranchised that they do not take part in the politcal process.

But an issue like this is one that most likely they will want to take part in,
which is why we are seeing a change in tactics from those who are pro life
campaigners as they know they have to reach that demographic and not put off those who are prolife but not religous.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I think there's a little bit of a stigma attached to being anti-abortion. It's, ironically, a bit like saying you're a feminist.

That made me laugh so now I have coffee all over my keyboard, cheers tallaght01.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I personally think the thread is pretty civilised, compared to real-life conversations between the 2 sides of this debate.

It depends on how the discussion is carried out imho and discussion is a lot different then debate and argue it's something I have seen time and again when you have a female orientated fora, ( workshops, discussions ect ) it can be a breath of fresh air.

Nevyn · 26-08-2008 2:16pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm no expert in this area, but I'm pretty sure that all the GOOD data shows no association between abortion and breat cancer.

The spurious links between breast cancer and abortion go like this,
Women who breast feed are less likely to get breast cancer.
Women who don't breast feed are more likely to get breast cancer then those who do.
Women who have an abortion and there for don't breast feed are more likely to get cancer.

Very flawed.

JC 2K3 · 26-08-2008 2:16pm

WindSock wrote: »

That aside, how come the overwhelming majority of Women (and Men) I talk to in this country seem to think that abortion should be legalised here, yet the referenda keep turning out No's?

What referenda?

John Mason · 26-08-2008 2:17pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm no expert in this area, but I'm pretty sure that all the GOOD data shows no association between abortion and breat cancer.

you know that and i know that but eveie said it was proven

rainbow kirby · 26-08-2008 2:20pm

eveie wrote: »

i am well aware they do not provide 486 but that is something their interested in and when questioned about the 18 women dying as a direct consquence of it they chose to ignore the question.

You keep going on about 18 women dying as a result of taking RU-486 for a medically-induced abortion, yet you make no mention of women who die as a result of pregnancy complications or in childbirth as a result of carrying a child to term.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8178896

Despite impressive gains in safety in recent decades, pregnancy remains risky business. From early in pregnancy until some weeks after its conclusion, pregnant women are at increased risk of morbidity and mortality compared with women who are not pregnant. This review summarizes recent national data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, including vital statistics from the National Center for Health Statistics. Ectopic pregnancy is substantially more dangerous (38 deaths/100,000 events) than either childbirth (nine) or legal abortion (less than one). The three leading causes of maternal death today are pregnancy-induced hypertension, hemorrhage, and pulmonary embolism. Although comprehensive data on pregnancy-related morbidity are lacking, about 22% of all pregnant women are hospitalized before delivery because of complications. Women of minority races have much higher risks of death than do white women, and the same holds true for older women and those with limited education. For most women, fertility regulation by contraception, sterilization, or legal abortion is substantially safer than childbirth.

tallaght01 · 26-08-2008 2:24pm

irishbird wrote: »

you know that and i know that but eveie said it was proven

Ah, ok. No, it's not been proven. Certainly not to my knowledge anyway. There was a lot of data years ago that suggested it was the case, but the groups studied weren't big enough. The main problem with these early studies was that they were based on self reporting AND they were all done AFTER the diagnosis of breast cancer was made.

So basically, when a woman got breast cancer, they'd ask if she ever had an abortion. Some people admitted it, some didn't, so the figures were unreliable.

Then they conducted studies in the way they're supposed to be conducted...ie they got a big group of women who'd had an abortion and then follow them for many years. They did the same for a group of women whe hadn't had an abortion. they then followed up these women for many years and compared the breast cancer rates in their medical records (so you're relying on their medical recoreds, rather than on their willingness to admit something).

These much more scientific studies didn't find a link between breast cancer rates and abortion.

tallaght01 · 26-08-2008 2:27pm

rainbow kirby wrote: »

You keep going on about 18 women dying as a result of taking RU-486 for a medically-induced abortion, yet you make no mention of women who die as a result of pregnancy complications or in childbirth as a result of carrying a child to term.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8178896

Whereas it's a big deal if you happen to be one of those who die in eaither childbirth or during an abortion, let's keep some perspective on all this. The amount of women who die during either is minsicule in a developed country. Mortality stats are really a side issue here, IMO.

Nevyn · 26-08-2008 2:39pm

JC 2K3 wrote: »

What referenda?

We have had two so far.

The first was in 1983 and was the 8th amendment to the constitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

The last one was in 1993 which after a ruling in the X case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_General_v._X and resulted in the

Thirteenth Amendment of the Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
Which granted the right to travel to have an abortion.

And the The Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

Which granted the right to information on abortion, including the addresses and phone numbers of clinics which was illegal up until then and had magazines and phone books censored.

Wow hard to believe that was 15 years go, I remember at the time being gutted I was a few months short of being 18 and there for unable to vote.

Abortion

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