Quote of the Week!!!!

Liam Byrne

From today's Irish Examiner:

This week, Foreign Affairs Minister Micheál Martin told RTÉ: "We still don't know the source of the funding, or indeed did some of it come from overseas or whatever. We just don't know. But it was an extraordinary sum of money. We were promised full disclosure....."

No points for figuring out whether he was talking about Libertas or Bertie Ahern.....:rolleyes:

Funny how unexplained funds are only an issue for politicians when they're used in a way you don't like by people you don't like, isn't it ??? :rolleyes:

mike65

Martin has to keep banging on about this if only to deflect from FFs pathetic (and cheap) campiagn.

Mike.

Iwasfrozen

No, he was "going on" about it, because it's in the public eye,
Of course he wasn't going to bash Bertie's financial problems because it would have got him demoted.

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, he was "going on" about it, because it's in the public eye,
Of course he wasn't going to bash Bertie's financial problems because it would have got him demoted.

Interesting angle, Iwasfrozen.....have we somehow gone beyond the stage where querying blatantly obvious issues and looking for answers gets you promoted ?

Because that's the type of brave and thought-provoking, decisive action that I would expect from people, and those are the type of people that should then be promoted, not demoted, because they can be trusted to get to the bottom of things.

I mean, we now look up to the brave priests and bishops who wanted to weed out the minority of paedophile scum in their midst, and rightly so. They have done the country a service and restored the status of the priesthood and clergy because the required action was taken. If they'd kept their mouth shut because of possible repercussions, they would have been implicit in the corruption.

Iwasfrozen

I'm not quite sure what your talking about Liam Byrne.
Are you accusing me of having ties with FF ?

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what your talking about Liam Byrne.
Are you accusing me of having ties with FF ?

Nope - I didn't say any such thing.

I just said that the view you held (which is unfortunately probably one that a lot of people - or at least politicans - hold) is to say nowt, cover their ass and don't rock the boat, no matter what they see going on around them in case it gets them demoted; whereas in my book a politician or other person who sees something wrong and highlights it / does something about it would be a lot better and more valuable to society and should therefore get promoted.

But aside from that (because it's their own choice) the biggest issue I have with the story behind this is the hypocritical nature / two-faced-ness of politicians passing comments about others......if they don't view something as an issue, that's their stance; but to criticise others about similar "issues" (or what previously was a non-issue in their eyes when it suited them) should then be 100% off-limits.

djpbarry

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I mean, we now look up to the brave priests and bishops who wanted to weed out the minority of paedophile scum in their midst...

Eh, no. No we don't.

Liam Byrne

djpbarry wrote: »

Eh, no. No we don't.

Really ? So you don't think the ones that weeded out the scum and helped break the silence deserve praise ?

I find that strange.

ninty9er

Thing is it's likely millions with Libertas, whereas Bertie was accused of taking £15k and there's no proof of either.

So if it's okay for Enda Kenny to speculate on Bertie Ahern's finances, why have you got a problem with Michael Martin (among many others) casting aspersions on the sources of the Libertas funding to defeat Lisbon?

You wouldn't by any chance like to rephrase or is it okay to criticise double standards while applying them yourself?

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

So if it's okay for Enda Kenny to speculate on Bertie Ahern's finances, why have you got a problem with Michael Martin (among many others) casting aspersions on the sources of the Libertas funding to defeat Lisbon?

You wouldn't by any chance like to rephrase or is it okay to criticise double standards while applying them yourself?

Nope. Not a bit of it, as should be obvious to any neutral observers from the way I phrased things.

But let me clarify matters for you. If Enda Kenny commented on both, or neither, then fair enough.

If Michael Martin chooses to publicly comment only on the one that suits him, while choosing to ignore the other, THAT'S the double standard.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Nope. Not a bit of it, as should be obvious to any neutral observers from the way I phrased things.

But let me clarify matters for you. If Enda Kenny commented on both, or neither, then fair enough.

If Michael Martin chooses to publicly comment only on the one that suits him, while choosing to ignore the other, THAT'S the double standard.

I recall Kenny denouncing Libertas' lies, but not questioning where their money was coming from?

So he commmented on one and not the other, should we open a thread about it?

molloyjh

Liam Byrne wrote: »

From today's Irish Examiner:



No points for figuring out whether he was talking about Libertas or Bertie Ahern.....:rolleyes:

Funny how unexplained funds are only an issue for politicians when they're used in a way you don't like by people you don't like, isn't it ??? :rolleyes:

I hope you don't think that any of them are any different. Be they FF, FG or Libertas. And there is precious little point in placing the focus on the politicians in this instance. Its a well known aspect to modern day society to act this way. Everyone else does it too. I'm not too sure what the issue is given that most of our population are guilty of double standards to varying degrees, from smokers who give out about litter and then drop their cigarette butts in the street to those who give out about the levels of crime in the country but willingly ignore (i.e. not report) incidents of crime on the streets. This isn't a political phenomena (sp?)....

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

I recall Kenny denouncing Libertas' lies, but not questioning where their money was coming from?

So he commmented on one and not the other, should we open a thread about it?

Wasn't aware of that....so feel free....

Even if they did receive "likely millions" (and since we've previously been asked to back up figures, rather than speculate - are their quotable figures anywhere, before we go plucking figures out of thin air ?) - even if they did, is there anything wrong with that ? Assuming they have done all their taxes, repaid all their loans and disclosed whatever amounts, then is it even relevant to ask or cast aspersions ?

We're also assuming, of course, that someone has asked Libertas and they either gave conflicting answers or else haven't given a satisfactory, full-disclosure answer.....not sure about that - anyone know ?

It's could possibly be double-standards if that was the case.....but if it's not the case then you're not comparing like with like at all....

BTW, speaking of treating everyone equally......are we actually allowed to use the word "lies" when referring to Libertas ??

oscarBravo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

...are we actually allowed to use the word "lies" when referring to Libertas ??

I'm inclined to say "yes" - the definition, for the purpose of the charter, being to say something untrue with intention to deceive.

Liam Byrne

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm inclined to say "yes" - the definition, for the purpose of the charter, being to say something untrue with intention to deceive.

But if they genuinely believed what they were saying to be true, there'd be no intention, right ?

oscarBravo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But if they genuinely believed what they were saying to be true, there'd be no intention, right ?

Right, but they'd have to be astonishingly stupid to believe some of the things they claimed, and I don't buy it.

Question asked, question answered: this constitutes discussion of moderation, and is derailing the thread. Back on topic.

ninty9er

Well a campaign like Libertas ran with a number of staff, a Bus that was on the road weeks before Fianna Fáil's, I'm not even sure if anyone else had one. The ad campaigns and biased airsapce has to be bought.

The figure being put on the estimated cost of such a campaign is between €1.3-€1.8m, though figures will vary widely.

You can't get that sort of cash in individual donations of €6348.97 or less.

Their press officer owns politics.ie and was loath to have questions of Libertas financing asked never mind answered. That's not proof of anything underhand.

But then again, if you're going to compare £15k sterling when there were no ethics laws to over €1m these days; a parallel can't be drawn.

My own take is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I don't believe Ahern will be found guilty of anything, Libertas I'd have doubts about because of the sheer amount of cash and the wallet of the man behind it. If he funded it, the damage has already been done and any action against Libertas would not undo the fact that Libertas (mainly in conjunction with some others on the no side) cajoled the public into voting their way with complete lies that had nothing at all got to do with the now defunct treaty.