Disapproval towards meat eaters?

Nailz

Hi everybody, I'm not too regular to this part of the fora as I'm a meat eater whom dislikes vegetables with the only exception of a potato, therefore I'm the very opposite. But this particular question came to me while I was reading a particular thread on PI. This girl was bullimic (SP?) so then had to eat her fair bit of meat and fish, but her Vegan Boyfriend (before he knew of her illness) showed a good share disapproval on what she was eating, mainly pointing out why you should and shouldn't do this and that!

I'm sorry if I don't fully understand your point of view on eating meat or understand why you eat vegetables, but as I see it, no matter what your point of view is, I think that's bad form and a completely rotten way of going on!

Like, do any of you carry on like this? Do you see anything wrong with the way he's going on, and do you think he's right?

Again, I'm sorry if I come across like big bad meat-eating bastard, but I'm only curious.

Thanks.

Peanut

Not sure what bulimia has to do with eating meat or not?...

Seems like two different things getting mixed up here.

Oh and welcome Nailz.. it's ok we don't bite! eh usually :-p

Tar.Aldarion

Nailz wrote: »

Hi everybody, I'm not too regular to this part of the fora as I'm a meat eater whom dislikes vegetables with the only exception of a potato, therefore I'm the very opposite. But this particular question came to me while I was reading a particular thread on PI. This girl was bullimic (SP?) so then had to eat her fair bit of meat and fish, but her Vegan Boyfriend (before he knew of her illness) showed a good share disapproval on what she was eating, mainly pointing out why you should and shouldn't do this and that!

I'm sorry if I don't fully understand your point of view on eating meat or understand why you eat vegetables, but as I see it, no matter what your point of view is, I think that's bad form and a completely rotten way of going on!

Like, do any of you carry on like this? Do you see anything wrong with the way he's going on, and do you think he's right?

Again, I'm sorry if I come across like big bad meat-eating bastard, but I'm only curious.

Thanks.

I don't see what the problem is?
What has eating and not eating meat got to do with bulimia?
You do not have to eat any fish or meat as a remedy to bulimia. I think you need to clarify what you are talking about.

Nature Boy

I guess there's nothing wrong with the vegan boyfriend explaining his views to yer one but if he starts pressuring her and trying to make her feel guilty then that's wrong.
I would explain why I'm a veggie to people and have a debate about it, but I would never try to force my opinions on someone.

lizzyvera

Well the first thing bulimics do is binge eat HUGE amounts, then they purge. If they could control the binging then they could stop purging. Bulimics are usually normal weight or chubby, not like people with anorexia, it's a very different thing.

Maybe he keeps an eye on her binging and encourages her to eat nutritious food and keep it down, rather than eat two toffee cakes and puke them and take a pack of laxatives and hate herself.

My boyfriend reminds me not to eat to many sweets/drink too much because he knows I'll feel sick, and it's not unusual for people who are trying to change their habits to ask a loved one to nag them a bit.

lizzyvera

I also think that was a silly post, you must know some vegetarians who don't carry on like that so coming here and asking them if we all bully our psychologically ill friends is very annoying.
And try to write in short, simple sentences if you haven't got good english.

There was alot of abuse leveled at the vegetarian lifestyle in that thread.
Which was frankly off topic, and it says alot about disapproval of vegetarians that the PI mods didn't deal with it.

You have misread and taken a hop skip and a jump with the details that the op gave in that thread.

Her bf was disappointed, she never said he gave out to her.
He didn't know she had an eating disorder at that time.
He hasn't expressed any disappointment since.

For you not eating vegetables is just a personal preference.
Not eating meat means alot more to me, it is key to the cornerstone of my personal belief system.

When I was in a relationship with a vegan, our mutual outlook on life was key to our intial attraction and bond.
For him to about turn and tell me he was taking up something, that he had vehemently thought of as morally reprehensible before.
Would have been a big ass shock to the system.

I suspect that is the position from where the op's bf is coming from.

Tar.Aldarion

Just replied to the other thread instead if you want to read that OP.

Whispered

Moonbaby wrote: »

Which was frankly off topic, and it says alot about disapproval of vegetarians that the PI mods didn't deal with it.

.

PI mods generally deal with things pretty well, but I was suprised and disappointed that they let that thread continue in the way it did. I also love the way the op here twisted what the op in the original thread had written, where did the boyfriend show "a good deal of disapproval" and where did the op of that thread say he was pointing out why you "shouldn't eat this or that"?

Washout

Live and let live is what I say.

We all have control over our own lives and we make our own choices. We shouldnt push our views on others.

Nailz

Oh no, I know she was disappointed about what he was saying, I'm well aware of that. But what I mean is that I'm not too sure about his carry on, bullimia or not, you shouldn't press the the issue to such an extent, depending on how far he went. I don't know what eating meat has to do with her misfortune, but don't shoot the messenger.

That particular thread just put this question in my head, it isn't like I'm arguing about that topic. So now I want to see why you're a veggie, just so I can (or can't) understand your point of view.

rockbeer

OP, I guess everyone has issues about which they're prepared to express a moral judgement. Maybe if somebody you knew made a habit of setting fire to live cats you might let them know you didn't approve - or maybe it wouldn't bother you. The point is, there must be something you would express your disapproval of.

You talk as though eating meat were free of moral implications, and that is the way society at large and the meat production (aka farming) industry likes it to be perceived, but that isn't the case. Aside from the health issues, there is a moral dimension to the choice to eat meat, especially meat produced by modern intensive farming methods. You can choose to ignore it, but that doesn't make it not so.

Personally I don't have a problem with people doing what they like, but I also don't have a problem with someone expressing an opinion about it. Why do you think the boyfriend in your example should shut up if he thinks what she is doing is wrong? Surely she can stand her ground and defend herself if she thinks it's OK?

Where would you draw the line? Perhaps you could tell us what exactly, in your opinion, it is OK to express a moral opinion about and what not?

Nailz

Very good post, thank you. Ofcourse there would be something I would disapprove of, I never said I didn't, and I was arguing that I hadn't. I have many disapprovals, North Dublin Junkies, Emo's, Scientologists' and Scousers, just to name a few. But your example of setting cats on fire could have many different perspectives IMO, for one, I hate cats, but I wouldn't approve of killing it via setting it on fire, but it wouldn't make much difference if it was dead in the first place. But I would choose a different method in relation to killing it.

I agree with you on your second paragraph, nothing wrong with doing what you want and how you want to do it, if you see otherwise, then I'd call you a tit. I don't think there is anything wrong with expessing an opinion, but what I'm saying is it's obviously making her feel bad about it, and no matter how passionate you feel about your points of view you have to restrict how far you go in expressing them. But, as I said, I'm only using that as an example to ask a question that came to mind while reading that thread. And yes, I'm sure she can stand her ground, but maybe she just doesn't give a shìt and just wants to do things her own way, which should be her own business.

Where would I draw the line??? Well opinions should be expressed, and that's grand with me, but saying it as if everybody should do it this way or that way is a step over. Same reasons why I hate preachers. And I think there is nothing you shouldn't be aloud give a moral opinion on.

And please tell me, why you are veggies? As in, morally as I don't know what's the problem.

BTW, sorry if that was a bit too aggressive.

Peanut

Nailz wrote: »

... Well opinions should be expressed, and that's grand with me, but saying it as if everybody should do it this way or that way is a step over.

That's kind of the core of moral arguments though, trying to say that this is the way society should act in general. We can usually agree that murder, thievery etc. is immoral, and people shouldn't do it. Rule of law is effectively making moral judgements for us already.

You won't always get agreement on what is right and what isn't, but asking someone to reduce their viewpoint to "well I don't know, do what you like.." is effectively asking them to neuter it. Would probably make for boring discussions :-p

Unless a group is taking up an armed struggle for their cause, I'm not going to particulary worry about what they say I should be doing, as I can also say what I think they should be doing!

Nailz wrote: »

And please tell me, why you are veggies? As in, morally as I don't know what's the problem.

Lots of previous threads on this here, short answer is that there are different reasons.

Whispered

OP, the poster in that thread already had food issues and so would be much more sensitive to precieved disapproval from her boyfriend so while I know you're only using it as an example, and you are asking the question in general, it's not the best of examples.

There are many reasons to become veggie, top of the page, a sticky goes through some of the most common reasons.

As for disapproval, it depends, and I might get given out to for this, but at times I do.
For example, I disapprove of people buying battery eggs, for the sake of a few pence, if people stopped buying them the industry wouldn't be long about copping on. Similarly, free range chicken is so much better than battery (however I understand this is a lot more expensive).

Fois Gras, I avoid restaurants that serve this, such is my disapproval.

I have no disapproval towards people eating meat. I just hate it when people don't care how the animal ended up on their plate. Horrendous living conditions, pumped with antibiotics, rarely seeing the light of day etc means cheap meat. I disapprove of that.

Tar.Aldarion

The sticky she mentioned:

Tara le D'arion wrote:

Stuff i recall reading when starting out.

Defining Vegetarianism

Vegetarians choose not to eat meat,poultry,game,fish and animal by-products such as
gelatin and rennet.Vegans also exclude foods produced by animals such as eggs,dairy
products and honey.Vegan diets need more careful monitering to ensure a good balance
of nutrients,but both types of diet offer healthy,interesting and delicious ways of eating.


Why stop eating meat?

People stop eating meat for a variety of reasons:

1.Ethical:Most vegetarians simply want to prevent the killing or cruelty to animals.Furthermore
a meat-based diet is considered a wasteful use of resources in a hungry world.

2.Aesthetic:Some people simply prefer the taste of vegetarian dishes,personally don't know
anybody like that but sure,why not?

3.Health:A diet that is low in fresh foods,high in processed foods,refined sugars and fats is
unhealthy whether or not it includes meat.However,a well-balanced vegetarian diet offers many
health advantages.Research shows that vegetarians tend to eat less saturated fat,more
antioxidant-rich foods and more soluble fibre than meat-eaters,which may account for their
lower cholesterol levels .Vegetarians generally have fewer problems with high blood pressure,
gallstones and osteoporosis,as well as a reduced risk of certain types of cancer.Vegetarians
are also on average 9kg. lighter than the rest of the population.
In addition,by excluding meat,vegetarians avoid many health hazards related to animal-
based diets such as food poisoning,BSE,CJD and waste disposal.

Key Foods for Your Main Meals

By excluding meat a vegetarian "loses" mainly protein,iron,zinc,vitamins A and B,especially B12.

Protein:Many People believe that vegetarian and particularly vegan diets cannot
possibly provide sufficient protein.This is an old wives' tale.
Eight essential amino acids are needed to make a complete protein.Dairy products,eggs and
soya products(tofu,tempeh,soya drinks and desserts)all provide complete protein in themselves.

Combining whole grains(unrefined wheat,rye,millet,barlet,spelt,rice,quinoa)
with pulses(beans,peas,lentils)and supplementing with small amounts of nuts and seeds also
provides plenty of protein.All the essential amino acids are found in combinations
such as beans on toast,lentil curry with brown rice,musli with milk,hummus made from chickpeas
and sesame tahini,peanut butter sandwiches made from wholemeal bread.It isn't even necessary
to combine different food types at the samee meal since our bodies can store amino
acids for later use.

As with meat-eaters,it is important(and normal) foe vegetarians to base their eating pattern
on a wide variety of high quality foods.

Iron:is another nutrient often thought to be deficent in plant based diets,and
iron deficiency is indeed the most common deficiency in both vegetarians and meat-eaters diets.
Whatever your diet,you should avoid drinking milk or tea a mealtimes because both calcium in
dairy products and tannic acid in tea inhibit the absorption of iron from other foods.

Iron rich foods include dried fruits(weight for weight dried apricots contain
four times more iron than lamb does)nuts(especially brazils),wholegrains,dried peas,
beans and lentils,leafy green vegetables,molasses and egg yokes.Although iron may be absorbed
more easily through meat,the plus for vegetarians is that they eat foods which contain good
amounts of vitamin C,not contained in meat,and this boosts their absorbtion of iron.

Zinc:has numerous functions in the body.It has antioxidant properties
and is vital for the immune system,for the repair and renewal of skin cells and for the senses
of smell and taste.It is available for vegetarians in pumpkin,sunflower seeds
and sesame seeds(tahini being the best source),lentils,wholegrains,cheese,almonds and tofu.

Vitamin A:an antioxidant vitamin,is required for the health of skin,eyes,mucous passages
and the reproductive system.It is available for vegetarians as betacarotene which
is plentiful in vegetables that are red,orange or yellow.

B Complex Vitamins:support a multiple of functions in the body including the
immune system,the digestive system and the nervous system.They are readily available from wholegrains,beans nuts,
dairy produce, and protects that contain yeast such as vegetarian yeast-based spreads.

Vege'tar'ians and especially vegans need to be particularly careful about maintaining
their b12 intake,which is essential for their intake of iron.This vitamin appears in egg yolk,
dairy products,yeast extracts and soya products but not in plant foods.Some people
may wish to suppliment this.You can use B12 tablets or take spirulina,chlorella or blue algae
which contain naturally occurring B12.Ya can get these in health stores.

What about animal fats you ask?

We need fats in our body as a source of energy,to repair tissue,to transport vitamins and to
manufacture hormones.Fats are made up of fatty acids,two of which are termed 'essential'
and can only be found in food.These are linoleic and linolenic fatty acids.These are widely
found in plant foods such as nuts and seeds as well as in oily fish.Our bodies are designed to
need a regular intake of these essential acids,particularly for energy,skin health
and brain function.Plant sources of fats offer a far healthier option than the saturated fats
found in meat which are which are associated with degenerative diseases such as heart
problems and furred arteries.

back to...
Key Foods For Main Meals

Vegetarians are often more aware than meat-eaters of the benifits provided by wholegrains,
and in many ways have been trail blazers in their adherence to less processed,more nutritious
foods free of genetically modified organisms.The first and last part of a plant to be sprayed
with chemical spray is the outer husk,so for health-conscious ppl cooking wholegrain
cereals it is sensible to choose organic,unsprayed versions.

Other Stuff

*The largest and most intelligent of animals,the elephant,is vegetarian.(according to the irish health association)
*Growing crops to feed animals,which are then eaten,is wasteful.It is far more economic to eat
the crops direct.It takes up to 10kg of vegetables to produce 1kg. of meat.It takes 100,000
litres of water to produce 1kg. of meat but only 900 litres to produce 1kg. of wheat.
* Famous vegetarians include , Leonardo Da Vinci,Paul McCartney,Albert Einstein,
Brad Pitt,George Bernard Shaw,William wordsworth,Mahatma Ghandi.
*Ghandi,said "The greatness of a nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way
its animals are treated".

Nailz

Okay, "using it as a general example" isn't really what I was doing, I apologise. That, as I said before, only put this particular question in my head.

I don't agree with/care about most things in Tara as quote, but I'll tell you why when I'm finished at work.

Tar.Aldarion

Look forward to the debate.

Peanut

2.Aesthetic:Some people simply prefer the taste of vegetarian dishes,personally don't know
anybody like that but sure,why not?

Or they don't like the taste of meat

A guy I used to work with starting talking about veggieism after he knew I was vegetarian, he started with "Well of course everybody likes the taste of meat, so why do you..."

I didn't have time to tell him before he continued that the reason I became veggie in the first place was because I became repulsed by the thought of eating meat on a physical level, and not really so much the moral arguments.

Over time though I also acknowledge that it is more than likely preferable to be able to live without inflicting unnecessary suffering on animals. The important point here is unnecessary, or another way of saying it, wanton.. After all, we are animals too - we just happen to be the dominant ones on the planet.

There's nothing wrong in my opinion with people eating meat if they need it for nutritional purposes, or even for the taste, to a certain extent.
However there is something grating and undignifying about the mass market factory production of meat, which is more than likely not good for the consumers health either, regardless of ethical viewpoints.

Dave!

Washout wrote: »

Live and let live is what I say.

We all have control over our own lives and we make our own choices. We shouldnt push our views on others.

Well that's all well and good, but if you view meat-eaters as being responsible for the murder of animals, then you can hardly turn a blind eye can you?

I mean if there was habitual murder and consumption of humans by the majority of the population, and I was the minority that did not, I would not say "live and let live" about it.

Similarly with abortion... How one could view a fetus as a human life, and yet be willing to entertain notions of killing it in utero, is beyond me! I guess that's why abortion debates get so heated

Nailz

Oh sorry, I completely forgot about this;

1.Ethical:Most vegetarians simply want to prevent the killing or cruelty to animals.Furthermore
a meat-based diet is considered a wasteful use of resources in a hungry world.

That one's a no-no for me.

Emerald Lass

I just hate it when people don't care how the animal ended up on their plate. Horrendous living conditions, pumped with antibiotics, rarely seeing the light of day etc means cheap meat. I disapprove of that.

Helena I am with you on that one, most definitely. Whilst i wish no one ate meat, I am realistic and know that apart from our westernised cultures there are others who could not make this transition and survive for practical reasons. I would rather a hungry child eat meat than starve, of course. but people who have no conception of where their food comes from, not appreciation of the sacrifice involved, or how it gets to their plate really annoy me. Other meat eating species do not waste flesh on an animal - they hunt their own prey, and then they eat it all. They do not say, but eeewwww I couldn't eat its eyeballs! thats gross!

In spite of my dislike for the practice of eating meat, I have more respect for those who farm their own land, slaughter their own animals with their own hands and then use all of that animal for benefit. No shooting with bullets or stunning with cattle prods, but hands on, bloody ugly slaughter of the animal. This may seem strange to some, but at least the farmer doing this has an appreciation for the fact that a life has been taken for his food, and was prepared to do it himself. It is not a santised slice of steak in Dunnes chilled fridge. There is ore balance and respect involved.

I already mentioned that I live in a Muslim country - here they have small villages where the farms are not all intensive farms. And when the farmers slaughter an animal for use, every last bit of it is used - and I mean every bit. And the reason why Islam promotes the use of halall meat is because a prayer of thanks is said to Allah at the time of the animals death, to appreciate the sacrifice the animal has made. (I'm not a Muslim BTW). At least there is some recognition of the fact that an animal has died to provide food. What do the Irish do? Give thanks that there is 10% off lamb in Tesco and don't even consider where 'LAMB' comes from or what is involved with farming, rearing and slaughtering the animal. I dont just mean the issue of killing an animal, I also mean the issues of intensive farming, hormones, antibiotics, large scale waste and huge food mountains in the western world.

I'd love to see if all those people who have no problem with eating meat could get out there and get their own hands dirty with blood - I doubt it.
So Nailz, you dont have a problem with eating meat - would you have the stomach to go out and kill a cow yourself and appreciate the sacrifice of life? if not then you don't deserve to eat meat.

You have come here to ask us to explain why we eat meat - I'll do you a deal, for every excuse, sorry i mean reason you can come up with for YOU eating meat, and why you eat it and why you eat some animals and not others, then I will match each of your reasons with a reason why I don't eat meat. At the end of it we should understand each other perfectly. Are you up to the challenge?
you start, give me the main reason why you DO eat meat and the logic/ethics/practicality behind it?

nailz
Oh sorry, I completely forgot about this;


Quote:
1.Ethical:Most vegetarians simply want to prevent the killing or cruelty to animals.Furthermore
a meat-based diet is considered a wasteful use of resources in a hungry world.
That one's a no-no for me.

not sure what you mean by this - can you elaborate?

Emerald Lass

Nailz - just seen another post with an interesting link to a presentation on reducing meat consumption given by a meat eater - makes interesting viewing, and you can't say its from a wishy washy animal lover - this guy eats meat and even he appreciates that the level and manner of meat consumption is out of control.

Nailz

Elaborate... okay. I don't see the problem with killing it to feed us. As a lover of Argentine cuisine, I can't put my head around people not eating meat for these reasons. I was over at my home in Almeria this week, and I had visited all my local Argentines this week, and all 3 of them were packed. Would you show anger towards all these people because of the killing of the animal to make that fantastic food.

Mark Hamill

Nailz wrote: »

Elaborate... okay. I don't see the problem with killing it to feed us. As a lover of Argentine cuisine, I can't put my head around people not eating meat for these reasons. I was over at my home in Almeria this week, and I had visited all my local Argentines this week, and all 3 of them were packed. Would you show anger towards all these people because of the killing of the animal to make that fantastic food.

Well, why not? To some vegetarians saying people should be allowed to eat meat simply because it tastes so good to them is like saying people should be allowed to rape other people because it feels good to them. Those people in the Argentines can live without "fantastic food".

Emerald Lass

Nailz wrote: »

Elaborate... okay. I don't see the problem with killing it to feed us.

so then, by inference you would agree that killing animals for no reason would be wrong? yes? if so then justify why so many animals are killed to produce meat which is never eaten, which feeds no one, and rots in supermarket bins each week?

If you can show that every animal killed is proportional to the amount of meat needed then fair enough - the decision to eat meat or not comes down to personal moral code. But when the amount of meat consumed is disproportionate to the number of animals slaughtered, then the argument of killing for sustainance falls flat.

Also if your main argument is that meat sustains you and its ok to kill an animal for that then as i requested earlier exlplain why some animals are ok to eat and others aren't. And would you be able to slaughter an animals with your own hands if needed?

You have not responded to any of the questions I put to you in my post.

As I said justify why you choose to eat meat, and we will justify why we don't. Is the only reason because it tastes good? in that case if I served you up something and it tasted gorgeous - if you later found out it was a dog foetus or something equally repellant, would you still eat it again cos it tasted nice?

Nailz

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Well, why not? To some vegetarians saying people should be allowed to eat meat simply because it tastes so good to them is like saying people should be allowed to rape other people because it feels good to them. Those people in the Argentines can live without "fantastic food".

No no no, people who rape are in my books, scumbags. If you wanna have sex, go out on the pull, or just ask your partner. It would be a great blow to the worlds foods if Argentina didn't make the stuff they make!

Emerald Lass wrote: »

so then, by inference you would agree that killing animals for no reason would be wrong? yes? if so then justify why so many animals are killed to produce meat which is never eaten, which feeds no one, and rots in supermarket bins each week?

If you can show that every animal killed is proportional to the amount of meat needed then fair enough - the decision to eat meat or not comes down to personal moral code. But when the amount of meat consumed is disproportionate to the number of animals slaughtered, then the argument of killing for sustainance falls flat.

Also if your main argument is that meat sustains you and its ok to kill an animal for that then as i requested earlier exlplain why some animals are ok to eat and others aren't. And would you be able to slaughter an animals with your own hands if needed?

You have not responded to any of the questions I put to you in my post.

As I said justify why you choose to eat meat, and we will justify why we don't. Is the only reason because it tastes good? in that case if I served you up something and it tasted gorgeous - if you later found out it was a dog foetus or something equally repellant, would you still eat it again cos it tasted nice?

Oh I'm sorry, I've mistakenly passed out the rest of your post. To answer your first question, yes, I would hate to see perfectly good food go to waste, not what either groups of people want to see am I right in saying?

To answer the question on the third paragraph, the town I live in in Cavan is called Shercock (no dry jokes please) and it is home to Carten Bros. the largest Manor Farm producer in Ireland, which also happens to be the whole world. Well this summer out from Uni I picked up a job there and was put on the killing line, to which I couldn't say no. So yes, I'm well able to pick up an animal and kill the thing!

And your final 2 questions...
No, I eat it also as most of it is good for iron as sportsmen like myself have to be strong and take no prisoners, and it's worked so far! And not to mention I'm allergic to a few veggies and fruits, and I hate the taste of vegetables! Well... if you can make dog shït taste nice I'll give you a tenner!

BTW, I never said one particular group were okay to eat, they are all okay to eat.

How can anyone say they hate the taste of vegeables there are hundred of them and they all taste different.

Your not too concerned about being healthy and strong if you don't your veg.

Nailz

Moonbaby wrote: »

How can anyone say they hate the taste of vegeables there are hundred of them and they all taste different.

Your not too concerned about being healthy and strong if you don't your veg.

Okay, a potato, probably the only exception. Don't worry about my health, I'm strong enough to keep up with my footballing, and fit enough too. I've a good body fat ratio and shockingly normal colestorol (SP?) and blood pressure for the amount of beef and pork I eat.

Tar.Aldarion

Hah, I used to eat the same as you...

Emerald Lass

Nailz I said dog foetus not faeces. nothing aout dog sh!t.

nailz, it looks to me entirely that you are trolling. As I said, justify with supportive arguments why you eat meat. other than saying you like its taste and what a shame it would be if Argentinian food was lost. Not very convincing in my book - at least we veggies have given some solid logic to our choices other than, well it tastes nice and I like it!

I have always said that if someone can reasonably explain their choices to me and are genuinely interested in my reasons for not eating meat, then I am happy to discuss it. But I think discussing it with someone like Nailz who is just blinkered in his views and who doesn't really want to be educated on vegetarianism - well thats just a waste of my time.

Anyone else who feels like responding to the inarticulate drivel from Nailz, feel free. i have much better things to do with my time - like sticking hot needles in my eyes.