lee enfield rifles - ireland

Sikamick

Sizemore wrote: »

http://members.fortunecity.com/milit/VickersM1927a.htm

Yes the free state army did use a helmet that looked like the german army
helmet.

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Interesting link, so the picture I was talking was regular army and I am nearly sure they were carrying was Mauser rifles.

Sikamick

Sikamick

View Link. Irish Free State Army with German Helmets, note the Lee Enfields.



https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/58175/62165.jpg

dresden8

Sikamick wrote: »

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Interesting link, so the picture I was talking was regular army and I am nearly sure they were carrying was Mauser rifles.

Sikamick

Would they be 1916 vintage?

Sizemore

dresden8 wrote: »

Would they be 1916 vintage?

900 Mausers and ammunition landed in Howth on July 26th 1914

Grizzly 45

But not quite the Mausers we associate with the German armies of WW 1and 2.They were an earlier pattern and single shot along with a quantity of Mosin Nagants that the Imperial German army bootied from the Russians in the East campains of Prussia.

Red Renard

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But not quite the Mausers we associate with the German armies of WW 1and 2.They were an earlier pattern and single shot along with a quantity of Mosin Nagants that the Imperial German army bootied from the Russians in the East campains of Prussia.

The mauser rifles the Asgard and the Chotah landed from pictures of the time look to be the Gewehr 1871 or 1871/84 repeater, caliber 11x60mmR (.451) was this round loaded with BP? A visit to Collins Barricks should have on display some of the firearms used by the Volunteers.

Sikamick

Sizemore wrote: »

900 Mausers and ammunition landed in Howth on July 26th 1914

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Would there be any of these in Collins Barracks Museum.

Sikamick

Red Renard

Colonel Joshua Kearney “Jerry” Millner was born in Smithfield, Dublin on July 5th 1847 to a wealthy family of wool merchants. At the age of 24 in 1871 he joined the Dublin Shooting Club and two years later was chosen for the Irish rifle team to shoot for the Elcho Challenge Shield.


Joshua Millner photographed at Bisley with his Gold Medal

Millner was instrumental in helping his eight man team win the event for the first time against stiff opposition from England, Wales and Scotland. At the time, rifle shooting was a very prestigious sport and the winning team returned to Dublin to a hero’s welcome. More than 30,000 people lined the streets of Dublin to cheer them home. Millner went on to take part in over 700 competitions winning many more prizes both individual and team.


Does anyone know what rifles Jerry Millner used and the history of the
club he joined. The rifle in the picture looks like it's a mauser.
Did they shoot representing Ireland internationally before and after independence.

Sikamick

C R E E D M O O R


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=62238&stc=1&d=1220026127

Harper�s Weekly, 22 September 1877 Creedmoor � Bird�s Eye View of the Crowds The Story of Creedmoor by David Minshall


"At the close of the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71, the American rifle movement took its rise in a series of articles, written for the only military paper of the country, by a militia officer. They appeared in the "Army and Navy Journal," and were written by Mr. George W. WINGATE, a young lawyer of New York City.

The history of the movement from the time when WINGATE first published his articles to the time of the triumphs of Creedmoor and Dollymount is one of persistent effort against universal apathy.

The only class that encouraged the attempt at first was the citizen soldiery
of a single city, and even their support was by no means general. The first meeting for the formation of a rifle club was abortive, from the lack of sufficient numbers to constitute a legal quorum, and it was only on a second attempt that the club was formed. The first President of the "National Rifle Association," as it was called, was
General Ambrose E. BURNSIDE, who made a very good figure-head, but under whose leadership nothing was accomplished.

It was not till the second year of its existence that any real progress was made. Then, by the efforts of the new President, Colonel CHURCH of the
"Army and Navy Journal," and the Secretary, Mr. George W. WINGATE, the New York Legislature of 1872 was induced to appropriate $25,000 for the purchase of a range near New York city, the Association agreeing to raise $5,000 on its part."

[The Story of Creedmoor, Frederick WHITTAKER, 1876]

(The National Rifle Association (NRA) was formed in 1871. The first year of the NRA existence passed by quietly. Real progress began in 1872 when, under President William Church and Secretary George WINGATE, the New York Legislature was induced to appropriate $25,000 for the purchase of a range near New York City, the Association agreeing to raise $5,000 on its part.

After a protracted search for a suitable piece of land at a reasonable price, the NRA was able to purchase a plot owned by the Central and North Side Railroad of Long Island. Seeing that the Association's plans were likely to stimulate rail travel, the railroad company had agreed to sell the seventy acre plot at low cost.

This farmland had formerly been owned by the Creed family.

The gentleman credited with naming the new range was Colonel Henry SHAW, a member of the range committee of the NRA. On arriving at Creed's Farm and observing the open, desolate field, with coarse scanty grass and brambles he declared it a veritable moor, Creed's Moor. Hence by a happy inspiration and coincidence "Creedmoor" became the name of the new range. )

Much effort went in to the search for a suitable site for the new range in the vicinity of New York to no avail. Finally the search turned to the plains of Long Island. Here the NRA bought a 70 acre site, at one time owned by a farmer named Creed. Colonel Henry G. SHAW, a member of the NRA range committee, is credited with coining the word "Creed-moor" having
observed the similarities of the site with the moorland of Great Britain.


Creedmoor was opened in the spring of 1873 and was almost exclusively used by National Guardsmen, with shooting mostly at short range.
It was essentially used as a training ground for the NY Natioanl Guard, however a few individuals formed the Amateur Rifle Club of New York purely for the purpose of recreational target shooting.

The public interest in Creedmoor was slight, and the shooting poor when
compared with that of the Volunteers in Great Britain. Contests and rifles there during 1873 were almost exclusively military, confined to members of the militia or men shooting with their rifles. The few "any rifle" competitions were offhand at 200 yards.

The first season, however, witnessed the formation of a small club of enthusiasts, an offshoot of the parent association. George W. WINGATE, with a few others, organized the "Amateur Club" of New York City. This club was designed to cultivate the use of the sporting rifle, and to develop marksmanship as an amusement, with no ulterior military purpose.

This being the case, the Amateur Club speedily became a thriving institution, and many men joined it who would never have been caught in a militia regiment.

A challenge addressed to American riflemen in the winter of 1873 resulted in a match that brought the American rifle movement to the attention of the public. Since 1862 England and Scotland had been competing at Wimbledon for the Elcho Shield, the match comprising teams of eight, each man firing fifteen shots at 800, 900 and 1000 yards.

In 1865 Ireland was first permitted to enter the match, and in 1873 took the Elcho Shield for the first time. Elated with their success, the Irish marksmen, issued a challenge to American riflemen to decide the 'championship of the world.' The Irish would all use Rigby muzzle-loaders and the Americans be required to use arms of US manufacture. The Amateur Club on behalf of the
riflemen of America accepted this challenge.

In 1873 Ireland beat, for the first time, England and Scotland in a
'home countries international match' for the Elcho Shield. Flushed with success they challenged the riflemen of America to competition. The Amateur Rifle Club accepted the challenge and the match took place at Creedmoor in 1874 before an audience of 5,000 spectators. Shooting was at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. America won.

There was a return match in Ireland in 1875 (again won by the US) and 30,000 spectators turned up!! Some reports say even more....

As part of the Centennial Celebrations of 1876 an international competition took place at Creedmoor. America beat Australia, Canada, Ireland and Scotland. In 1877 America beat a Great Britain team at Creedmoor. This was the last of the short series of international target rifle matches held at Creedmoor.

The teams of eight fired 15 shots each at each distance 800, 900 and 1000 yards on two consecutive days (13 & 14 September). The winning America team was:
I.L. ALLEN,
C.E. BLYDENBURGH,
L.C. BRUCE,
Gen. T.S. DAKIN,
F. HYDE,
Capt. W.H. JACKSON,
Maj. H.S. JEWELL & Dr. S.I. SCOTT.

An American team came to Ireland in 1880, where they again won, but an unofficial team then going on to Wimbledon, England, were badly beaten. In 1882, at Creedmoor, and 1883, at Wimbledon, were two military rifle matches. Both of these were won by Great Britain.

Despite the invitation for riflemen to contest for places in the American team being published in daily papers over the United States, response was scanty. In the end it became clear that the Amateur Club would have to fight single-handed. The final team of six, three using Remington and three using Sharps breechloaders began to practice in earnest.

They monitored their progress by calculating average scores for the Elcho Shield winners, and comparing their own.

The eventful day arrived, and on 26 September 1874 Creedmoor witnessed a crowd of over five thousand people all come to see the grand match. At 800 yards the Americans had a good lead.

The Irish gained on them at 900 yards, and by the time they had finished shooting at 1000 yards were ahead of the Americans. In the end the match was to be determined by the very last shot fired by the Americans. Shooting a bull's eye at 1000 yards to score 4, the Americans emerged the winners on 934 points to the Irish team's 931.

This match was the forerunner the Palma Match and a series of international competitions held through the 1870's and 1880's. Public interest eventually waned and the matches went into decline, until in 1890 Creedmoor was deeded back to the state of New York and the NRA became dormant. Activities were not revived again until 1900, and in 1901 the Palma Trophy
was again shot for. The event continues to this day.

Creedmoor range remained in use until the opening years of the 20th Century, with shooting ceasing c1910. In 1908 Creedmoor State Hospital acquired the site, and in 1912 opened the Farm Colony of Brooklyn State Hospital with thirty-two patients. Today it is the site of the
Creedmoor Psychiatric Center.

Grizzly 45

As we have a long history of firearms useage in Ireland .What in Your opinion is the gun that stands out that would be most associated witrh Ireland???

I feel that these are some good contenders.

The Webly models used by both the British and Irish sides.
The Mauser "Peter the Painter " pistol associated with Dev,Pearse,and a few others.
The Luger in it's variations.Ireland was the only other country apart fom Holland and Germany that issued the Luger as a officers sidearm.[Due to the shortage of UK sidearms in our case.:rolleyes:]
The Mauser rifle,the Lee Enfield,the Thompson SMG,
and in more modern times unfortuneatly the AK and AR18[0] Armalite

So what would be your opinion would Irelands rifle& pistol be???

civdef

Ireland was the only other country apart fom Holland and Germany that issued the Luger as a officers sidearm.

Don't tell the Swiss. Seriously though, had never heard about Irish use.

Red Renard

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As we have a long history of firearms useage in Ireland .What in Your opinion is the gun that stands out that would be most associated witrh Ireland???

I feel that these are some good contenders.

The Webly models used by both the British and Irish sides.
The Mauser "Peter the Painter " pistol associated with Dev,Pearse,and a few others.
The Luger in it's variations.Ireland was the only other country apart fom Holland and Germany that issued the Luger as a officers sidearm.[Due to the shortage of UK sidearms in our case.:rolleyes:]
The Mauser rifle,the Lee Enfield,the Thompson SMG,
and in more modern times unfortuneatly the AK and AR18[0] Armalite

So what would be your opinion would Irelands rifle& pistol be???

If it's a gun and not just rifle only , it would have to be something double barrel. The farmer and his shotgun I guess. Most popular firearm
in the country.

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

Don't tell the Swiss. Seriously though, had never heard about Irish use.

Forgot them...:o. Have an article here in a German gun mag about it.I'll sit down and translate this one day,as it is 5 pages.

Sizemore

Lee Enfield No4 MK2 and the Bap. Fit for a Queen.

Sparks

And that photo marks the last time someone tells an ISSF shooter that their jackets look funny

paddyenfield303

Sizemore wrote: »

Lee Enfield No4 MK2 and the Bap. Fit for a Queen.

seen that piture in bisley in the 60s

kowloon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But not quite the Mausers we associate with the German armies of WW 1and 2.They were an earlier pattern and single shot along with a quantity of Mosin Nagants that the Imperial German army bootied from the Russians in the East campains of Prussia.

Have 2 battered nagant stocks, recovered from the wreck of the Aud in the seventies, at home.
Apparently most of the Howth Mausers - I read a while back - were Mod. 71s but there were some 71/84s with the magazine and Kropatschek style lifter.
They're BP loaded. I would have imagined most of the Mod.71s would have been refinished as 71/84s.

Sikamick

kowloon wrote: »

Have 2 battered nagant stocks, recovered from the wreck of the Aud in the seventies, at home.
Apparently most of the Howth Mausers - I read a while back - were Mod. 71s but there were some 71/84s with the magazine and Kropatschek style lifter.
They're BP loaded. I would have imagined most of the Mod.71s would have been refinished as 71/84s.

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I got to speak to a couple who done a number of dives on the Aud and they were telling me that all the metal parts are eroded away and the timber stocks are all that's left.

Will you take the Chasspot with you or are you selling it.

Sikamick

Sandy22

Sikamick wrote: »

Red Renard is the No8 MkI Rifle still available and do you know if they can still be purchased.

Sikamick

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=1920934

Sikamick

Sandy22 wrote: »

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=1920934

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Thanks Sandy22 for the link, the Rifle No8 MkI Rifle would bring a new type of classic rifle competition to Ireland.

It would be an area of classic shooting which would be great fun and not expensive to shoot. I had a PM from a boards member and they have a K98 in .22 Caliber, I hope we get to see it on Saturday.

I would really like one of these.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/58175/62602.jpg


Sikamick

Sikamick

Sizemore is this you Tom, https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/58175/62605.jpg..... I didn't know we had the yanks looking in.

Sikamick

kowloon

If I could understand German I would be in serious debt by now .

Chassepts not for sale, took me eons to get it so I want to keep it for a while .

Grizzly 45

Sandy22 wrote: »

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=1920934

Translation for the above;
[green writing] Lee Enfield training rifle No8 mk1 cal 22lr.

total length 1037mm barrel length 591mm weight 4480 kg
single shot.
English lee enfield training rifle 22lr calibre
mod mk 8 no1 clean barrel
English proof marks. stamped Frankonia distribution
original stock and recoi; pad
useage marks on the bluing and wood laquer.

Sikamick

Grizzly 45 do you have a link to Frankonia, do they stock Lee Enfields.

Sikamick

Rovi

Frankonia-
http://www.frankonia.de

...and a cut down English version-
https://export.frankonia.de/scripts/home/home.php

Red Renard

http://www.efdrifles.com/ Sikamick if you are looking for good condition Lee Enfields that shoot try this address.

Sikamick

Red Renard wrote: »

http://www.efdrifles.com/ Sikamick if you are look for good condition Lee Enfields that shoot try this address.

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Red Renard can you put the picture of the Lee Enfield No 8 up I don't know how to do it.

Sikamick

Rovi

Here you go-
Enfield No8



Have you guys already got this? (15.26MB .PDF file) -
Small Arms Training, Volume 1, Pamphlet No. 3, Rifle, 1942.

Sikamick

Well done Rovi, this is a beautiful rifle. Can you PM me and fill me in on how to copy photos up to threads.

Sikamick

Grizzly 45

Sikamick wrote: »

Grizzly 45 do you have a link to Frankonia, do they stock Lee Enfields.

Sikamick

You have to keep trying them Sika,check their used section for military guns[ordanaz waffen] All sorts do show up there occasionally.