Lexus ISF

RedorDead

In this months copy of new car magazine they had a group test with the M3, IS-F and C63 AMG.

Results were

1. C63 AMG (most powerful and also cheapest by far)
2. IS-F
3. M3

Although the reviewer said if he was buying himself it would be the IS-F.

Cyrus

merc is the cheapest WOW?

they look super the c63s ill have one in a few years when depreciation takes a chunk

Zonda999

bazz26 wrote: »

I don't know, Audis are probably more jumped up VWs than Lexus are Toyotas these days. Audi share platforms as well as various engines with VWs, Skodas and Seats. Lexus use their own rwd platforms and share a diesel engine from Toyota which we know is crewed for a junior exec saloon.

Maybe the Audi people are just better at pulling the wool over people's eyes than Lexus.

The platform the new A4(Called MLP afaik) is based on will only be used by audi.This is also the platform use for the A5 and Q5.The next gen A3 may also have its own platform but it wouldnt matter if it uses the golf platform again because thats an excellent platform.As for the same engines, all the new engines that are going ito audis at the moment(1.4TFSI, 1.8TSI ETC...) are all excellent so its a good thing that they are being shared amongst the entire group.For example the 1.4tfsi base engine in the passat would be far superior IMO than the 1.6vvti base in the avensis.It would be faster, lighter on fuel, "torque"ier and it has a 6speed 'box.Surely its a good thing if audi standard engines can be bought by people loking at any marques in the vw group.I also think that if someone wants to believe that all there is to an audi is a rebadged vw, then that is fine but i think audi always do just enough in the right areas to amke their cars superior

RedorDead

C63 AMG (457BHP) = €94,550
IS-F (423BHP)= €114,930
M3 (420BHP) = €109,608

Biro

Zonda999 wrote: »

The platform the new A4(Called MLP afaik) is based on will only be used by audi.This is also the platform use for the A5 and Q5.The next gen A3 may also have its own platform but it wouldnt matter if it uses the golf platform again because thats an excellent platform.As for the same engines, all the new engines that are going ito audis at the moment(1.4TFSI, 1.8TSI ETC...) are all excellent so its a good thing that they are being shared amongst the entire group.For example the 1.4tfsi base engine in the passat would be far superior IMO than the 1.6vvti base in the avensis.It would be faster, lighter on fuel, "torque"ier and it has a 6speed 'box.Surely its a good thing if audi standard engines can be bought by people loking at any marques in the vw group.I also think that if someone wants to believe that all there is to an audi is a rebadged vw, then that is fine but i think audi always do just enough in the right areas to amke their cars superior

But the Lexus IS is a different platform than the Avensis platform - it's RWD. How can you say a Lexus is a jumped up Toyota but defend the position that an Audi isn't a jumped up VW/Skoda/Seat? There are more differences between a entry model Avensis and entry IS than there are between an entry level Passat and an entry level A4.
What you're saying is kind of like saying "I'm a vegetarian, but I love steak".

bazz26

Matt Simis wrote: »

Thats kinda all $hite now in fairness isnt it?
Do you know anything about the Audi S and RS line of cars (which is what we are referring to, not 1.9TDIs)? What VW comes in V10 (petrol), Twin Turbos V8/V6s etc etc? Let alone the A8/S8 which is built on its own platform and not shared with anything (not even the Phaeton, its oldschool D1 vs Audi's D3 Space Frame platform).

My point was in references being made by some posters earlier in the thread about Lexus as a marque just being a fancy Toyota. As with certain high end Audi models when was the last time you saw a Toyota with rwd and a 5.0 litre engine as used in the IS-F?

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont go for this marque b is just a jumped up marque a as they are all so interconnected these days huge lumps of nearly any car can be traced to another. And even if so, who bloody cares, its the end product that matters.

I agree 100%.

Zonda999

I never really said that the isf is a jumped up avensis.There completely different cars.All i was ever saying is that lexus' originally were based on toyotas and werent meant to be performance cars.I totally accept that the isf has been done right.The core differences between the A4 and passat are becoming greater all the time anyway.Tjhe current A4 has a totally different base for a start.

bazz26

Zonda999 wrote: »

The platform the new A4(Called MLP afaik) is based on will only be used by audi.This is also the platform use for the A5 and Q5.The next gen A3 may also have its own platform but it wouldnt matter if it uses the golf platform again because thats an excellent platform.As for the same engines, all the new engines that are going ito audis at the moment(1.4TFSI, 1.8TSI ETC...) are all excellent so its a good thing that they are being shared amongst the entire group.For example the 1.4tfsi base engine in the passat would be far superior IMO than the 1.6vvti base in the avensis.It would be faster, lighter on fuel, "torque"ier and it has a 6speed 'box.Surely its a good thing if audi standard engines can be bought by people loking at any marques in the vw group.I also think that if someone wants to believe that all there is to an audi is a rebadged vw, then that is fine but i think audi always do just enough in the right areas to amke their cars superior

And what about when Toyota had Variable Valve Timing in the likes of the entry level Yaris/Corolla/Avensis 10 years ago when VW and Audi where still selling their 8 valve engines? Now that they have updated their engines people are singing and dancing about it.

Cyrus

RedorDead wrote: »

C63 AMG (457BHP) = €94,550
IS-F (423BHP)= €114,930
M3 (420BHP) = €109,608

mmmm 3 years time i reckon a c63 will be about €55k

Zonda999

bazz26 wrote: »

And what about when Toyota had Variable Valve Timing in the likes of the entry level Yaris/Corolla/Avensis 10 years ago when VW and Audi where still selling their 8 valve engines? Now that they have updated their engines people are singing and dancing about it.

I still dont think that was as good a development as direct injection and downsizing and compensating with turbo's is now.Toyota is still using those engines now when it looks like they are out of their league in terms of performance and emissions.I dont hear any about any new technology that toyota is putting into its engines these days.We'll see if theyve done anything when the new avensis is unveiled in the next few months.There was certainly nothing new in the auris, a car that is far inferior to the mk5 golf IMO, not a mind the mk6

Biro

Zonda999 wrote: »

I still dont think that was as good a development as direct injection and downsizing and compensating with turbo's is now.Toyota is still using those engines now when it looks like they are out of their league in terms of performance and emissions.I dont hear any about any new technology that toyota is putting into its engines these days.We'll see if theyve done anything when the new avensis is unveiled in the next few months.There was certainly nothing new in the auris, a car that is far inferior to the mk5 golf IMO, not a mind the mk6

There you go again though, slagging off Toyota saying they've done nothing new with their engines, and Audi/VW are fantastic for coming up with great new petrol engines.
VW/Audi were further behind the competition with their 8v engines than most other companies ever were, and they left them in situ for years. Back 12 years ago a 1.4 Civic would maul a 2004 1.4 Bora for example, even if you even the handicap with 100kgs in the boot of the Civic. Now the tables have turned but instead of just accepting it as progress like most other car owners did in the past, the VAG fan club somehow think it's time to look at the competition and guffaw at their unworthiness.
Nissan had the March Super Turbo back in the 80's, but no one credits them.
I'm not aiming at you specifically, but just in general at the VAG club spouting on about superiority when it's just a good development that is long overdue.

Zonda999

Trust me, i'll be the first to admit that vw had very poor engines in the mid nineties.That 1.6 8v is still in existance today and, as far as i can see one of the worst currently available.However, they are putting in a good bit of development in recent years and we are living in the present afterall.Its developments now that matter.Toyota made some great engines in the nineties but all i'm saying is that they need to be putting more development in their engines now.they are a bit outdated.They should start by putting direct injection into the new avensis

philtaylor

In my honest opinion looks very cheap and nasty. However but the Five Axis body kit on it and it becomes alot nicer.

Cyrus

that is horrible IMO

In standard trim it loses out to the m3 and c63 i think aswell looks wise

Zonda999

My eyes, Ze goggles they do nothing!!!

That has to be one of the most vulgar cars ive seen in my life, Horrible

cpoh1

I think it'll be interesting in the next 2-3 years with all the japanese concepts if they come into prosduction. The japanese supercar was king of the 90's but with the latest porsches and various m and rs badged german cars the last 10 years have been good for the european car manufacturers.

Now that the GTR has come out and the new Supra and NSX have been given approval for production BMW and Audi will have their work cut out matching these cars.

The IS-F is a more exculsive car than the M3 ever will be due to production numbers and a lot less recognisable too, which is the main attraction with these cars and what the original M series originally stood for.

Cyrus

cpoh1 wrote: »

I think it'll be interesting in the next 2-3 years with all the japanese concepts if they come into prosduction. The japanese supercar was king of the 90's but with the latest porsches and various m and rs badged german cars the last 10 years have been good for the european car manufacturers.

Now that the GTR has come out and the new Supra and NSX have been given approval for production BMW and Audi will have their work cut out matching these cars.

The IS-F is a more exculsive car than the M3 ever will be due to production numbers and a lot less recognisable too, which is the main attraction with these cars and what the original M series originally stood for.

nope, itll be an 'exclusive' car due to the fact no one will buy it :pac:and its just as recognisable to anyone who knows, i mean the exhaust for one thing

Marcus.Aurelius

I love the look of it, and the drive.

Who the hell said pedigree????

Toyota Supra, Soarer, MR2, Celica, too many to mention.

Pedigree my left testicle.

cpoh1

Cyrus wrote: »

nope, itll be an 'exclusive' car due to the fact no one will buy it :pac:and its just as recognisable to anyone who knows, i mean the exhaust for one thing

Considering there are only 150 that were released to the UK market (all sold). There are over 400 M3 saloons alone for sale in the UK, let alone the more popular coupe. The M3 is a far more recognisable performance car to the general public and less exclusive too.

Cyrus

cpoh1 wrote: »

Considering there are only 150 that were released to the UK market (all sold). There are over 400 M3 saloons alone for sale in the UK, let alone the more popular coupe. The M3 is a far more recognisable performance car to the general public and less exclusive too.

they only allocated 150 to the UK market because they wont sell in high volumes, if it is that exclusive i wouldnt be able to goto Tom Hogans and buy one today for less than the price of an equivalent m3

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Car&carID=1129097&message=You%20searched%20for%3A%20Lexus%20ISF.%20Your%20search%20returned%20one%20vehicle%2C%20which%20is%20shown%20below.&CFID=6556457&CFTOKEN=45952133

also 3 for sale here

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/list.asp?s=408&p=&d=0&min=&max=&y1=&y2=&txt=&px=&xsl=list&pagesize=15&filter=TP&o=p&pc=

Cyrus

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

I love the look of it, and the drive.

Who the hell said pedigree????

Toyota Supra, Soarer, MR2, Celica, too many to mention.

Pedigree my left testicle.

you have driven it?

To be fair the only car in the list above that would point to a perdigree in high performance and handling is the supra

Marcus.Aurelius

The soarer 2.5 twin turbo is very nice too. I remember hearing there was a tuned 4.0 V8 in some of them from the Lexus LS of the 90s.

As for the ISF, it drives very well, feels a bit like the old IS200, which had a hopeless engine, but the new machine is much better handling.

I found the tail a bit skittish though, anyone else think this? I test drove one in Galway on Sat

EDIT: There was a queue to test drive the thing, about 6 or 7 people had it for a spin while I was waiting.

cpoh1

Cyrus wrote: »

they only allocated 150 to the UK market because they wont sell in high volumes, if it is that exclusive i wouldnt be able to goto Tom Hogans and buy one today for less than the price of an equivalent m3

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Car&carID=1129097&message=You%20searched%20for%3A%20Lexus%20ISF.%20Your%20search%20returned%20one%20vehicle%2C%20which%20is%20shown%20below.&CFID=6556457&CFTOKEN=45952133

also 3 for sale here

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/list.asp?s=408&p=&d=0&min=&max=&y1=&y2=&txt=&px=&xsl=list&pagesize=15&filter=TP&o=p&pc=

You can buy a lamborghini gallardo on pistonheads, does that mean its not exclusive??? Im sure I could find plenty of M3's for sale on Irish forecourts, does that mean they are not a worthy car? Exclusivity is all to do with numbers on the road, BMWs' will never have that boast.

The reason Lexus are only issuing this car in limited numbers has nothing to do with lack of car sales and more to do with making the car a limited edition and exclusive run of an upmarket family car. A bit like BMW did in the 90's with the M series cars before they got greedy and starting mass producing cars for the general joe soap and compromising their design ethos in the process. I havent driven this car but i would imagine reading reviews that lexus didnt hold back with this fella like BMW did with the M3 diluting the car to keep everyone happy.

Marcus.Aurelius

I suppose at least it provides a platform for a new challenger to the M3, at least it means that design will be kicked up a notch or two, good for us in the long-term!

Cyrus

cpoh1 wrote: »

You can buy a lamborghini gallardo on pistonheads, does that mean its not exclusive??? Im sure I could find plenty of M3's for sale on Irish forecourts, does that mean they are not a worthy car? Exclusivity is all to do with numbers on the road, BMWs' will never have that boast.

The reason Lexus are only issuing this car in limited numbers has nothing to do with lack of car sales and more to do with making the car a limited edition and exclusive run of an upmarket family car. A bit like BMW did in the 90's with the M series cars before they got greedy and starting mass producing cars for the general joe soap and compromising their design ethos in the process. I havent driven this car but i would imagine reading reviews that lexus didnt hold back with this fella like BMW did with the M3 diluting the car to keep everyone happy.

A gallardo is in a completely different price range, point is if i had 100k cash to spend i could buy either the lexus or the bmw today, so it isnt that exclusive.

it will be less common, becuase it isnt as desirable but thats a different argument.

I dont understand your argument re the m brand, yes they are produced in big numbers but any review ive read and any drive ive had in an e46 m3, e39 m5 and e60 m5 puts them right at the top of the segment they compete in.

in what way did lexus not hold back and bmw did?

Cyrus

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

The soarer 2.5 twin turbo is very nice too. I remember hearing there was a tuned 4.0 V8 in some of them from the Lexus LS of the 90s.

As for the ISF, it drives very well, feels a bit like the old IS200, which had a hopeless engine, but the new machine is much better handling.

I found the tail a bit skittish though, anyone else think this? I test drove one in Galway on Sat

EDIT: There was a queue to test drive the thing, about 6 or 7 people had it for a spin while I was waiting.

how does the is-f feel anything like the old is-200

cpoh1

Cyrus wrote: »

A gallardo is in a completely different price range, point is if i had 100k cash to spend i could buy either the lexus or the bmw today, so it isnt that exclusive.

it will be less common, becuase it isnt as desirable but thats a different argument.

I dont understand your argument re the m brand, yes they are produced in big numbers but any review ive read and any drive ive had in an e46 m3, e39 m5 and e60 m5 puts them right at the top of the segment they compete in.

in what way did lexus not hold back and bmw did?

Listen man im not going to have a silly internet fight with you over a silly topic. You are one of the many bmw fan boys on here and thats fair enough, unfortunately you cant see any good car that doesnt have a bm badge on it for what it is and thats unfortunate for you. Ive made my point about how I think the IS-F is less common/more exclusive (theyre both the same thing to me) and is much less compromised as a car to appeal to the masses (just look at the exhausts) unlike the M3 which is designed less for the out and out enthusiast and more for the affluent business man interested in prestige and brand. Brand and appeal was bmws priority with performance a close second, this is not the case with the IS-F and its exactly why id have one over the M3.

Holsten

philtaylor wrote: »

Your own mini Batmobile... yum.

Cyrus

cpoh1 wrote: »

Listen man im not going to have a silly internet fight with you over a silly topic. You are one of the many bmw fan boys on here and thats fair enough, unfortunately you cant see any good car that doesnt have a bm badge on it for what it is and thats unfortunate for you. Ive made my point about how I think the IS-F is less common/more exclusive (theyre both the same thing to me) and is much less compromised as a car to appeal to the masses (just look at the exhausts) unlike the M3 which is designed less for the out and out enthusiast and more for the affluent business man interested in prestige and brand. Brand and appeal was bmws priority with performance a close second, this is not the case with the IS-F and its exactly why id have one over the M3.

oh great trot out the fanboy comment because someone doesnt agree with you, ive just said on this thread that ill be buying the c63 when it comes down in price, blows that argument out of the water.

you havent provided any proof to back your arguments up, just called me a fanboy.

On the exhaust, both cars have quad exhausts outlest, one car actual has 4 tail pipes one doesnt, guess which one that is and in any review ive read even those that favour the lexus, they say the bmw is the more focused sports car, just because a certain group by the bmw doesnt mean it was designed for them.

VH

Cyrus wrote: »

you have driven it?

To be fair the only car in the list above that would point to a perdigree in high performance and handling is the supra

youve driven all those? how did you find the mr2 turbo?

On the exhaust, both cars have quad exhausts outlest, one car actual has 4 tail pipes one doesnt

both have just 2 back boxes, no? with 2 pipes from each backbox? can have as many tailpipes out of each back box as you like, but more than 2 looks silly