The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

dubsgirl

I too have received 2 letters from these solicitors today, unfortunately in my case it's guilty as charged. I thought my OH was going to pay it (he insists I never asked him - wrong I did )

Now is there any hope of me getting these ridiculous fines cleared?

I have no objections to telling a few porkies to get rid of the 286EUR I now owe instead of 3EUR

Seth Brundle

dubsgirl wrote: »

I too have received 2 letters from these solicitors today, unfortunately in my case it's guilty as charged. I thought my OH was going to pay it (he insists I never asked him - wrong I did )

Now is there any hope of me getting these ridiculous fines cleared?

I have no objections to telling a few porkies to get rid of the 286EUR I now owe instead of 3EUR

Just ignore them - as already discussed its unlikely that anything will happen they are just bullying tactics

Sizzler

The tax man wrote: »

Well I rang those solicitors this morning,ready for a good argument over the phone,but it didn't happen. First off the they just wanted the ref no. from the letter,so gave it to them and was told this case was highlighted for some reason. and that someone would ring me back....still waiting for the call.:rolleyes:
Anyway told them my payment number from eFlow transaction screen and that I have a bank statement showing withdrawal for same and that all this happened before Nov 30th etc etc.
Going to ring them back tomorrow and get some sort of answer from them.

I know Bond said the calls are back into eflow but I dont think they are, I suspect the solicitors have a small number of staff dealing with these calls, thing is (if this forum is anything to go by) 90% of people will be calling to dispute the charges, this will be HUGELY labour intensive and regardless of the max fine they can levy it really wont be worth their while. I can see the call centre staff getting pi**ed off with this pretty quickly or asking eflow for tenfold the resource which I doubt they will like!

A lot of the stuff here appears accurate in terms of bulk mailing on their headed paper by way of mail merge. Some people might brick it due to the threat of judgements etc but given they have to get you into court for that and a minimum cost of €300 per case I cant see this happening. Open up a random issue of Stubbs Gazette and you will see a handful of cases for the likes of Vodafone & o2 for example where they will take someone to court for €500-€900. 90% of the cases in stuff is high end debts. The first eflow case in court should be one worth being in the gallery for. Defendant will say they paid and heres my credit card bill your honour, eflow kept pestering me etc. Cue case struck out. You cant stand over a case when the supporting "system" and level of service is plainly a shambles.

On another note, as I recall Sean O'Neill (see below link)was on Today FM's last word etc. when they were castigated for their "teething problems" back in October. About time he was brought on again...

http://www.nra.ie/AboutUs/ContactInformation/

Also, heres the managing partner of the solicitors in question..

http://www.pierfitz.ie/?q=node/15

The tax man

Sizzler wrote: »

I know Bond said the calls are back into eflow but I dont think they are, I suspect the solicitors have a small number of staff dealing with these calls, thing is (if this forum is anything to go by) 90% of people will be calling to dispute the charges, this will be HUGELY labour intensive and regardless of the max fine they can levy it really wont be worth their while.

Have to agree with this. Don't think the number is redirected back to eFlow. Seems like a small enough staffed operation. People I've talked to were actually nice,not the usual call centre bot you get when you ring eFlow themselves. Rang them again today and was again told that someone would ring me back,still haven't heard a thing. Maybe they've a lot of people to ring back.:rolleyes:

darren20

MorrisDunn wrote: »

Let me explain how these "solicitors letters" work.

I used to work in debt collection for a well known firm in Dublin. What eflow have done is they have paid these solicitors a fee to use their letterhead and churn out automated letters. The solicitors supply the wording and eflow print off the letters back at eflow central aong with the other notices. The solicitors letter is just another printer in the eflow office.

The named solicitors have never had your details. The phone number on the letter will be a number belonging to eflow. It is a basic scare tactic. Thing is it works in 90% of cases.

It's not scare tactics these solicitors or employed bu the NRA to collect debts owed to them on their behalf. If you call eflow and your case has been sent to these solicitors the eflow agent has no access to your file and will have to transfer you to these solicitors to discuss the case

darren20

Carawaystick wrote: »

Well if you have one er, witness who can remember you paying, that's one more witness more than they have.

remember only a court can fine you.

No plenty of people can fine you for various offences, such as traffic wardens for illegal parking, gardai for speeding and eflow for not paying your tolls

niceirishfella

UPDATE ..............i got a letter this moring from the solicitors saying that "they are closing off the case".

So, I WON! and i was right.

But, there never was a case to answer? No apology either, just a denial that the debt collection letter was "a standard one" they send out and that it did "not question my integrity or defame my good character" as i had alledged back to them.

Their point is that I had'nt paid the toll on a day back in November last by 8pm, which is a bye law for the M50.

Correctly me if I'm wrong, but did'nt they waive that up until the end of Nov?

Thanks,
NIF

Our man in Havana

darren20 wrote: »

No plenty of people can fine you for various offences, such as traffic wardens for illegal parking, gardai for speeding and eflow for not paying your tolls

Actually no. Those organisations can offer you a fixed penalty (not a fine) in exchange for not prosecuting you. Only a court has the power to impose a fine.

Mr Burns

darren20 wrote: »

It's not scare tactics these solicitors or employed bu the NRA to collect debts owed to them on their behalf. If you call eflow and your case has been sent to these solicitors the eflow agent has no access to your file and will have to transfer you to these solicitors to discuss the case

It is not a debt until a court decides it is. I think you are just an eflow apologist.

Bond-007 wrote: »

Actually no. Those organisations can offer you a fixed penalty (not a fine) in exchange for not prosecuting you. Only a court has the power to impose a fine.

Correct.

Mr Burns

niceirishfella wrote: »

UPDATE ..............i got a letter this moring from the solicitors saying that "they are closing off the case".

So, I WON! and i was right.

Result. Well done

niceirishfella wrote: »

But, there never was a case to answer? No apology either, just a denial that the debt collection letter was "a standard one" they send out and that it did "not question my integrity or defame my good character" as i had alledged back to them.

Interesting they claim it is not a standard letter. I wonder what was the exact wording of the letter?

niceirishfella wrote: »

Their point is that I had'nt paid the toll on a day back in November last by 8pm, which is a bye law for the M50.

Correctly me if I'm wrong, but did'nt they waive that up until the end of Nov?

Thanks,
NIF

They did but that point was lost on our friends from Listowel.

Seth Brundle

Mr Burns wrote: »

They did but that point was lost on our friends from Listowel.

Preumably eFlow send over a weekly list of 'offenders' and run against a mail merge template using the solicitors headed paper so its really eflow's fault (eflow cock up - no way :eek:) but then again, its still on the solicitors headed paper!

niceirishfella

Mr Burns wrote: »

They did but that point was lost on our friends from Listowel.

I'm going to write back and inform them of this and send them an invoice for wasting my time when they knew this information - say the cost of writing to them twice (1 fax and 1 letter) €160? like its €80 a solictor charges for sending out a letter - so, I'll tale that as a yardstick:D:D

Story goes its costing them half a million per week to collect tolls? They don't have a clue.

Thoughts anyone?

thecommander

niceirishfella wrote: »

I'm going to write back and inform them of this and send them an invoice for wasting my time when they knew this information - say the cost of writing to them twice (1 fax and 1 letter) €160? like its €80 a solictor charges for sending out a letter - so, I'll tale that as a yardstick:D:D

Story goes its costing them half a million per week to collect tolls? They don't have a clue.

Thoughts anyone?

You can invoice them but I doubt very much they'll pay. Are you a solicitor?

Our man in Havana

The only way you would get those costs would be to have let the matter get to court. When they loose the case you get your costs from eflow.

Seth Brundle

niceirishfella wrote: »

Story goes its costing them half a million per week to collect tolls? They don't have a clue.

That was the anticipated cost. Since barrier free tolling was introduced, it has been one continuous disaster which has to have cost them way more than they had originally expected.

niceirishfella wrote: »

Thoughts anyone?

Yeah - eflow couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery!

Davy

kbannon wrote: »

That was the anticipated cost. Since barrier free tolling was introduced, it has been one continuous disaster which has to have cost them way more than they had originally expected.

Yeah - eflow couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery!

This is so very true. I know someone who works for them and she even said they are a joke :pac:

Sizzler

Anybody try using their website to pay for a journey by VISA? Type in whatever you want and it accepts it as paid. I popped in my card number, Mickey Mouse as the name and a makey uppy CV2 number and bobs your uncle, a farce.

Our man in Havana

You should have tried a completely fictitious card number and see if it would accept that. The name or CV2 number are not essential elements to obtain an authorisation code.

Sizzler

Bond-007 wrote: »

You should have tried a completely fictitious card number and see if it would accept that. The name or CV2 number are not essential elements to obtain an authorisation code.

Cant say I wasnt tempted I know if I posted that there would have been a gush of morally compliant folk on here saying it was dispicable etc.

Sizzler

Nice bit of propaganda sent out from the NRA today in todays Indo :rolleyes:

Indo wrote:

By Paul Melia


Wednesday February 18 2009

HUNDREDS of motorists a day are getting free rides on Dublin's M50 motorway because they refuse to pay the toll.

But now solicitors acting for the National Roads Authority (NRA) are sending out hundreds of final-warning letters telling people to pay the €3 toll and any fines incurred -- or face court.

The Irish Independent has learned that up to 800 motorists are now failing to pay for using the Dublin ring-road, which became barrier-free last August.

Despite warnings by the NRA that toll dodgers would be prosecuted, and their credit-rating affected, hundreds of drivers are still failing refusing to pay the €3 toll and have racked up fines of over €150 each.

However, the NRA is receiving between 200-400 calls a day from people eager to settle their accounts before receiving a court summons.

Warning

Solicitors Pearse & Fitzgibbon, based in Listowel, Co Kerry, which acts as a debt collector for the NRA, has been sending out hundreds of final- warning letters since late January informing motorists that unless they pay, they will have a judgment registered in the courts. If motorists refuse to pay, the solicitors will issue a civil summons to the toll evader.

A decree for the amount owed will be issued by the Courts Service, which could result in the debt being registered which could impact on the motorist's credit record.

Failure to pay could see motorists jailed for up to six months or face fines of up to €5,000.

The NRA said that outstanding tolls and penalties would be pursued, except in exceptional circumstances.

Motorists would be given up to three weeks to settle their accounts and after that a summons would be issued.

- Paul Melia

Link - http://www.independent.ie/national-news/end-of-the-road-for-toll-dodgers-1643163.html

niceirishfella

LOL...........

Our man in Havana

Their propaganda piece is badly written and is inaccurate.

Solicitors Pearse & Fitzgibbon, based in Listowel, Co Kerry, which acts as a debt collector for the NRA, has been sending out hundreds of final- warning letters since late January informing motorists that unless they pay, they will have a judgment registered in the courts. If motorists refuse to pay, the solicitors will issue a civil summons to the toll evader.

They really need to do things correctly, you need to issue the civil summons first, have a trial and then if the motorist looses obtain judgement.

I think the trial element could be a big problem for our friends from Listowel and their eflow masters. Of course the propaganda makes no mention of a trial or due process and seems to indicate that a judgement is a foregone conclusion.

As a firm of solicitors you would think they would know better.

Sizzler

Bond-007 wrote: »

Their propaganda piece is badly written and is inaccurate.



They really need to do things correctly, you need to issue the civil summons first, have a trial and then if the motorist looses obtain judgement.

I think the trial element could be a big problem for our friends from Listowel and their eflow masters. Of course the propaganda makes no mention of a trial or due process and seems to indicate that a judgement is a foregone conclusion.

As a firm of solicitors you would think they would know better.

Very well said. Also the part about them scaring people into paying, when in actual fact their "system" is such a shambles that the debtor might have actually paid already! Theres a stack of reasons why this wont fly, sending out half a rainforest to the registered owner within 2 days regardless of whether or not they paid the toll (:rolleyes:) and assuming they got it and then mail merging from a law firm in Listowel and again assuming that the car owner a) Actually got the original letter in the post b) Assuming they dont have a genuine query and c) Bankrolling the costs of getting all of these non-payers to court...hmmm. First judge that takes the time out to review one of these cases will have it struck out or adjourned at best for a long time till they can close down a litany of legal loopholes, which frankly they wont. Could the driver plead insanity Also, they are assuming the driver can read / write / was aware of the toll structure etc etc. You can bet your bottom dollar there is people using the M50 on a daily basis who wont use it again for a year or who have may not have ever used it before who wouldnt have a breeze that they are supposed to pay.

Kudos to our eastern european friends who are using it on a daily basis with their PL / LT / LV (etc.) reg'd cars, they must be saving a fortune now!

Turner

Yeah the same as any garda fine.

Judge i never received it, first i heard was when i received the summons.

Strike out.

Seth Brundle

Bond-007 wrote: »

Their propaganda piece is badly written and is inaccurate.

Well, it was in the indo!

Carawaystick

Chief--- wrote: »

Yeah the same as any garda fine.

Judge i never received it, first i heard was when i received the summons.

Strike out.

The garda would actually be there to prosecute; I couldn't see the nra's chain of evidence stacking up anywhere near as well as the Gardaí.

Our man in Havana

Also the Listowel mob will employ local solicitors to present their cases at the various district courts around the country.

I can see it now, "mmm I don't seem to have that document, mmmm can I have an adjournment please?"

Sizzler

Has anybody queried a letter from the Listowel crew? Just wondered how they were dealing with them and were trying to stand over the details eflow had given them.

ART6

This sounds as if it's going the same way as when the government last tried to introduce water rates. My recollection (hazy now admittedly) was that people who didn't pay were told they would be taken to court etc etc and still a large percentage of the population didn't pay. Finally when it was realised that the courts would be trying to deal with half the population the whole idea was abandoned. I am convinced that this latest money raising scam is going to go down the pan like most of the other ideas conceived by the single brain cell that constitutes our government;)

Sizzler

I got a letter off them yesterday telling me I needed to prove I paid a toll (after I raised the query online) as they couldnt find the payment. FFS. What makes it worse is they have closed the toll case online but yet still send a letter saying its not resolved The mind boggles, the sheer waste of money they are spending on postage alone on this debacle is farcicial.

How long before Prime Time does an investigation on the whole thing? "m50 Toll Free, One year on", theres a thought :pac:

p28559

got two letter from etoll today. letters outlining the late fees plus toll in respect of journeys i didnt make.

in fact i dont own the vehicle either. i did own a vehicle with a very similar reg a few years ago. can remember every reg...i buy old cars drive them til they drop and then buy another....

rang etoll. was not prepared to give the operator too much personal information. i mean i was only ringing to say that i was sending them back their letters ...operator wasnt too impressed..obviously the script doesnt cover people who dont wish to give etoll their name and address. why should I. I mean its not that etoll have a great reputation for their record keeping. why do they need those details when I am ringing quoting their notice number...they know who they sent the notice too.

have a feeling that a game of table tennis is going to commence with them.

how do you prove you dont own a particular vehicle. its not like the vehicle reg people are obliged to issue such statements.

i think i will forget about it.....

Seth Brundle

p28559 wrote: »

how do you prove you dont own a particular vehicle. its not like the vehicle reg people are obliged to issue such statements.

Maybe they will give you the car before you get to court!

NiSmO

This post has been deleted.

Our man in Havana

Front only.

NiSmO

This post has been deleted.

cormie

There was something in the paper about a few people getting done because they covered their front plate but left the back plate visible and it takes photos of the back too so they were caught

NiSmO

This post has been deleted.

Our man in Havana

You are in the clear. They normally letter bomb you by the 3rd day.

niceirishfella

What do they do with cars in "limbo" on tradeplates. Probably bomb the poor previous owner!

leon8v

niceirishfella wrote: »

What do they do with cars in "limbo" on tradeplates. Probably bomb the poor previous owner!

Yeh they will bomb the registered owner of the plate attached to the car, not trade plate.
As regards the bit in the paper about people being done because they saw their rear plates. This was just a scare tactic to discourage people from dirtying or tampering with their plates. It obviously worked on some. When it started at first there was a guy standing at the gantry heading southbound in the mornings watching traffic, maybe he took down a few regs as they went past. And there was also a garda traffic jeep at the building site where the old toll booth was being taken down, maybe they chased a few down. That is long since gone now. Saw a car yesterday with no front plate on it going across. Free trip for him.

niceirishfella

just get this stuff..........

http://www.sprayonmud.com/

Our man in Havana

leon8v wrote: »

Yeh they will bomb the registered owner of the plate attached to the car, not trade plate.
As regards the bit in the paper about people being done because they saw their rear plates. This was just a scare tactic to discourage people from dirtying or tampering with their plates. It obviously worked on some. When it started at first there was a guy standing at the gantry heading southbound in the mornings watching traffic, maybe he took down a few regs as they went past. And there was also a garda traffic jeep at the building site where the old toll booth was being taken down, maybe they chased a few down. That is long since gone now. Saw a car yesterday with no front plate on it going across. Free trip for him.

Even systems like Londons' congestion charge only work on the front plates.

TwoShedsJackson

Went through the toll at about 11.50 Monday night then totally forgot to pay the charge yesterday. Now I go on the site but it seems you can't pay there if you missed the time frame to pay?

Am I now supposed to wait for a penalty notice before I pay it? If I pay it judging by what's going on in here..

Sizzler

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Went through the toll at about 11.50 Monday night then totally forgot to pay the charge yesterday. Now I go on the site but it seems you can't pay there if you missed the time frame to pay?

Am I now supposed to wait for a penalty notice before I pay it? If I pay it judging by what's going on in here..

Too late mate, they are already preparing to fell 5 acres of birch in Co.Clare which they will be sending to you over the next few days in the form of a penalty notice. That will be followed by threats to bring you to the gallows, doesnt matter if you have already paid them, eflow are never wrong :eek:

Seriously though mate, go on to their site and just pay for 1 journey, pay the €3 and forget about it. If they try and hammer you for more cash, just tell them you have paid...which you have! The brilliance of their website allows you to pay for as many journeys as you like without waiting for toll notices etc. Probably explains why they can never find any bloody payments :rolleyes:

mcwhirter

I have 2 cars each with a tag registered with Eflow. I was billed correctly for 1 of the cars using the M1 toll and then billed incorrectly for the other car 10 seconds later at same M1 toll but for 5.80 euros.
How can they get it so wrong, the 2nd car wasn't even in use and is definately not a truck.
Will Eflow ever get it right?

Seth Brundle

mcwhirter wrote: »

Will Eflow ever get it right?

it appears that they don't believe themselves to be wrong and not trying to change so the answer to your question would be 'No'!

Bluefoam

I'm registered for video use with eflow, but still recieved 2 fines today...

Our man in Havana

Good old eflow. Just ignore them.

niceirishfella

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm registered for video use with eflow, but still recieved 2 fines today...

they never cease to amaze.:p

Kashkai

I only use the M50 about twice a month so a tag wasn't an option for me so I registered online for a video account. However their website kept crashing and it took me five attempts to register. At the end I thought it was finally done so I went on to use the M50 on a few occassions but then got some penalty notices for non payment. I rang them up and explained the above and they said they had no record of my attempts to register for a video account. However the nice girl (and to be fair she was very pleasant) registered me there and then for a video account. I've since used the M50 on 5 occasions and have not received any bill on my credit card.

Now I'm wondering is (a) the nice girl made another mistake and did not register my car as she said she was doing or (b) their system is hopeless and can't pick up all cars using the M50.

Appears to be a very hit and miss system they're using.