The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

Kotek Besar

Sending something by registered post proves nothing, only that it was delivered at that address and signed for by someone.

That someone could be anyone. The babysitter or cleaner, for example.

Sending something registered is no more indicative of it being received by the addressee, than sending it through normal post.

Zube

benifa wrote: »

Sending something registered is no more indicative of it being received by the addressee, than sending it through normal post.

Unless the addressee is the one who signs for it...

Kotek Besar

Zube wrote: »

Unless the addressee is the one who signs for it...

Ok, but how is that indicative to the sender? How would the sender know who signed for it?

Seth Brundle

benifa wrote: »

Sending something by registered post proves nothing, only that it was delivered at that address and signed for by someone.

That someone could be anyone. The babysitter or cleaner, for example.

Sending something registered is no more indicative of it being received by the addressee, than sending it through normal post.

Is it not accepted by a court that the company went as far as they reasonably could to serve the summons?

Kotek Besar

kbannon wrote: »

Is it not accepted by a court that the company went as far as they reasonably could to serve the summons?

That's a good point.

Seth Brundle

on this note: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/businessman-made-a-run-for-it-when-served-with-lawsuit-1784852.html
idiot!

Our man in Havana

Registered post is considered good service for District Court summonses. If the crafty person refuses to sign for the letter an application will be made to serve the summons by regular post. This is then considered good service by the court.

Our man in Havana

kbannon wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/m50-toll-collectors-pushing-the-envelope-1784850.html

More propaganda to scare the little people into paying.

So 25 have accepted their fate. Of course they don't say how many are being fought on various points of law.

Toto Wolfcastle

I had a look at the signs on my way through the toll today and didn't see anything about the fines so does that mean they definitely wont stand up in court?

A family member of mine has started working in the Eflow call centre. Poor girl.

Our man in Havana

janeybabe wrote: »

I had a look at the signs on my way through the toll today and didn't see anything about the fines so does that mean they definitely wont stand up in court?

My opinion would be they would have severe problems making it stand up on the basis of the existing signage.
I suspect they will amend the signs when they loose a few cases in court.

Toto Wolfcastle

Bond-007 wrote: »

My opinion would be they would have severe problems making it stand up on the basis of the existing signage.
I suspect they will amend the signs when they get an ass kicking in court.

I look forward to it.

Seth Brundle

Bond-007 wrote: »

More propaganda to scare the little people into paying.

So 25 have accepted their fate. Of course they don't say how many are being fought on various points of law.

You seem to have a good grasp of the legalities of it all.
Is it easy for them to raise a summons? Presumably they need to specify the specific offence being broken and make reference to the specific legislation before the court will grant one.
Assuming this is so, how will they get the summons?

Our man in Havana

Very easy.

All they do is type up the summonses and take them down to the courthouse and pay the €18 stamp fee, get them signed and you have a valid summons. The clerk will fill in the hearing dates, sign the summonses and apply the fee stamps. The summons will specify what they are alleging and what remedies they are seeking i.e. money.

All that eflow do then is send a photocopy of the summons by registered post to the defendant. During the time between serving the summons and the court date the matter may be settled and no court hearing will be necessary. If the defendant defends, eflow have to return the original summons to the court. It is then put on the list for hearing on that date.

Blanchguy

Are the tag company easytrip short of money or something? They charged me my monthly admin fee for May at 23.59 on the 29th of May then hit me again on the 1st of June. It's only €1.22 but I'm sure it adds up. Anyone else notice this?

stevekay

just come across this (very long) thread. must say, saw the newspaper few weeks ago about customer service getting better and didn't believe it. I reported problem just after christmas about my tag and never got a call back despite repeated attempts to get through to the call centre to chase it. called again Monday out of desperation, got straight through to a lovely lady who solved the problem. I nearly fell over. not sure what the change is the eFlow has made, but it seems to be working :pac:

Our man in Havana

It is working for now, but for how much longer?

sneakyST

ok so we have had many problems with eflow but this one is a new one.

The missus went through the toll and forgot to pay the toll. Fine. In the post came the fine but it recorded only one way not both journeys. So the wife rang to pay and said the fine should be for two journeys (this was to save hassle in the long run). She paid the tolls and both €3 fines. Great. Sorted...errr no...

Today a €40 fine lands in the mailbox. The wife rings and this is where it gets bizarre.....
They stated that the toll payed(& fine) for the second journey couldnt be allocated against that journey and was being held against any future journeys, so the €40 fine was justified! The wife says ok but Im leaving the country in a few weeks (which we are) and wont be using the toll bridge again. Round the houses this went and finally she paid another €6 and agreed to accept a cheque back for the €6 paid for the toll and fine on the second journey. The agreed to waive the fine of €40 .... what a waste of time and resources.

*becky*

hey another ex employee here if uv any questions

Seth Brundle

I'm looking at the bylaws pdf (from page 69) and it defines the Applicable Toll as:

“Applicable Toll” subject to Regulation 15.3, means, at any time and in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the toll determined by the Authority
(inclusive of indexation, value added tax and rounding) to be
chargeable in respect of such User/Vehicle Class provided that such
Applicable Toll shall not exceed the Maximum Toll applicable to
such User/Vehicle Class at such time.

On the eflow site, it claims that VAT is not applicable to the tolls
http://www.eflow.ie/tolls/index.htm

Am I missing something or is this governed by higher legislation?

Our man in Havana

VAT is not applicable to M50 tolls but the legislation is framed in case VAT is ever imposed in the future.

Carawaystick

There was an eu court case several years ago which determined vat should be added to tolls, round about the time of the euro changeover, which is why the westlink toll rocketed up in price at the time - Different rocketing up in price since the state bought ntr out though, they went from 1.65 to 3 euros.... ex VAT.

unkel

Carawaystick wrote: »

There was an eu court case several years ago which determined vat should be added to tolls, round about the time of the euro changeover

Indeed! The toll was 80 pence and when the EU forced Ireland to charge VAT at the luxury rate on tolls, it should have gone up to 96 pence, but this was nicely rounde up to a pound. This was obviously before the euro changeover!

Seth Brundle

Thats what I had though - so eflow.ie is incorrect!

Seth Brundle

Incidentally, I went through the gantrys twice on Friday and yet again forgot to pay and now I'm fupped if I'm paying the fine.

Anyway, seeing as this bee has been in my bonnet for a while, I called the NRA and raised the issue with someone in the PPP department. They claim that they or a colleague will call me back. Should they do so, I'll let you know.

Our man in Havana

A forest of paper is winging its way to you now.

Seth Brundle

Bond-007 wrote: »

A forest of paper is winging its way to you now.

Good! Bring it on!

Carawaystick

unkel wrote: »

Indeed! The toll was 80 pence and when the EU forced Ireland to charge VAT at the luxury rate on tolls, it should have gone up to 96 pence, but this was nicely rounde up to a pound. This was obviously before the euro changeover!

that pound converted to Eur1.27 which got rounded up to 1.30, and then there was the rampant inflation which brought it up to 2 euros in a few years.

Seth Brundle

You are also omitting the "we won't increase toll prices when barrier free tolling comes in" toll increases!

unkel

Carawaystick wrote: »

that pound converted to Eur1.27 which got rounded up to 1.30, and then there was the rampant inflation which brought it up to 2 euros in a few years.

Yup, right again. The rouding up was very controversial as the government had pretty much guaranteed us that the euro conversion would not be "inflationary" as in businesses should not round up the prices

And the increases then were from 1.30 to 1.50 to 1.80 to 2.00 over the next few years since 2002 iirc

waves

Got a courtesy call from the solicitors handling the fines and they tell me that a summons will be issued shortly.

Now, I don't live at that address anymore so there's no way I can sign for it... if my folks do, what happens then? The Gardai usually just leave my parking fines with them.

Secondly, what if I say that I posted a cheque to them and that I presumed that it was paid? Things get lost in the post.

The solicitors did say that it could effect my credit rating etc etc if it wasn't paid.

Our man in Havana

Now, I don't live at that address anymore so there's no way I can sign for it... if my folks do, what happens then?

They then have good service and can proceed to court. Then it is your problem.

The solicitors did say that it could effect my credit rating etc etc if it wasn't paid.

Lies.

Turner

Tell your parents not to sign anything.

waves

Bond-007 wrote: »

They then have good service and can proceed to court. Then it is your problem.

Lies.

So if I tell them to sign for nothing for me then I should be in the clear? Do they actually have to sign for it or just take possession of it?

Sorry for the Questions but I haven't a clue about this - can't believe that the fine is €143

Our man in Havana

It is debatable whether it is a fine or not.

If your parents refuse to sign for it, eflows local solicitors will simply make an application to a judge to allow service by ordinary pre-paid post. All eflow need do is then post the summons to you by regular post.

All it will do is delay them by a few weeks.

Seth Brundle

I have sent the following to Sue, Leggit & Run:

Hi

I was wondering if you could answer the following queries for some research that I'm completing:

1. what specific legislation covers the provision for fines for non payment of the M50 toll?
2. what happens if a toll and fine remains unpaid?
3. Can non payment (and any subsequent court appearance) affect ones credit rating?
4. How many summonses have been issued to date?
5. How many successful convictions have been achieved against M50 toll non-payers?

Many thanks
me

I'm curious to see their response. I'm more concerned with #1 and should I receive a response, I will let you know.

junkyard

From the looks of it they're going to make a lot more money from fines and penalties than they'll ever make on tolls, it's a complete joke that we still have to pay for this anyway. The corruption in this country is unreal and everyone just seems to accept it.:rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

junkyard wrote: »

From the looks of it they're going to make a lot more money from fines and penalties than they'll ever make on tolls, it's a complete joke that we still have to pay for this anyway.

I'm not [paying and hopefully we can ensure that those who have had fines extorted from them will be repaid every cent.

junkyard wrote: »

The corruption in this country is unreal and everyone just seems to accept it.:rolleyes:

Not quite everyone!

(coincidentally watching Prime Time where Lenihan was caught lying)

junkyard

kbannon wrote: »

I'm not [paying and hopefully we can ensure that those who have had fines extorted from them will be repaid every cent.

Not quite everyone!

(coincidentally watching Prime Time where Lenihan was caught lying)

Good man, i'm due a refund too so, thieving b@stards!! I thought that's what Lenihan did for a living, just like the rest of his family? I see he's trying to pass the buck to Cowen now as well for all our woes. Fianna Fail looks like a happy place to be at the moment, there are so many knives out at the moment Newbridge cutlery should be tendering!!:pac:

DubTony

kbannon wrote: »

Thats what I had though - so eflow.ie is incorrect!

eh .. no, it seems not.

There was an issue with trucking companies who asked about how they would now claim VAT back, as their drivers always got a receipt at the window. It seems the vat rule mysteriously disappeared, and vat is no longer chargeable on the toll. I believe the rate for commercial vehicles came down, but not for private cars.

... the mind is currently boggling ...

Seth Brundle

so I see
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/0813/1218477437745.html

Our man in Havana

I would love to see one of their summonses purely to see what they are claiming and its legal basis.

Seth Brundle

kbannon wrote: »

I have sent the following to Sue, Leggit & Run:

Hi

I was wondering if you could answer the following queries for some research that I'm completing:

1. what specific legislation covers the provision for fines for non payment of the M50 toll?
2. what happens if a toll and fine remains unpaid?
3. Can non payment (and any subsequent court appearance) affect ones credit rating?
4. How many summonses have been issued to date?
5. How many successful convictions have been achieved against M50 toll non-payers?

Many thanks
me

I'm curious to see their response. I'm more concerned with #1 and should I receive a response, I will let you know.

and the response...

Sue, Leggit & Run wrote:

Dear Sir,

In relation to your email query of the 29th June 2009, the following are our replies:-

1. The Roads Acts 1993 - 2007 are the primary legislation and the Bye-Laws for the M50 (between junctions 6 & 7) are the secondary legislation that covers the provisions for fines of non-payment of the M50 toll.

2. If a toll and fines remains un-paid a liquidated sum Civil Summons will be served on the Defendant. If he chooses to defend it the case will be heard at Dublin Metropolitan District Court. If he does not defend it a Judgment will be taken up for the total of the tolls and fines.

3. Yes, if a Judgment is obtained against a person this information will be gathered by the credit rating agencies and will affect the Defendants credit rating.

4. & 5. Summons have issued against Defendants. The first of these were dealt with by Dublin Metropolitian District Court at the end of June and we expect further summons will be dealt with every month from here on in.


For specific information in relation to the number of summons issued and the number that have been satisfied by Defendants and Judgment taken up you will need to contact Mr. Sean O'Neill of the National Roads Authority press office for this information.

yours faithfully,

any suggestions on a reply to that?

basherzz

They seem to have an answer to everything don't they? I've today written to them - again - in the hope of sorting out my case. One trip to North Dublin since July last year and the result is threats from that shower of wasters in Kerry. I wasn't even driving the car myself. The next time I've to go there, I'll be turning on the Sat Nav and going thru the city. So much grief for €6. That's what I get for living in the west and not taking any notice of what's going on in the capital. I've also sent a complaint about eflow, nra and p&f to the Dept. of Transport. Wonder where that'll get me?

Damien360

Anyone know how their database works. Are they storing car details and owner details long after payments and fines complete.

Reason I ask: We never heard from them until we made one trip. We made a trip Northbound and then Southbound a week later in May. We prepaid at a shop correctly. Never made another trip there again. 2 weeks later we received a fine for non-payment. Called them (on day that phone system switched to Cork) and they took the reference number and were able to see that not only was it not our make of car but not even remotely similar reg plate. Then, on Monday we got another notice for a non-payment. Again, not our reg or make of car. Both fines cleared by them and asked for a letter of confirmation. got one, awaiting other

So, their system is obviously reading reg plates and cross referencing with a database for fines. Databases can screw up easily. But, should they be holding a record of reg plates long after payment has been made (data protection act). Surely the system should be, read plate, cross check if it is a tag, then cross check if prepaid, cross check for payment within 24 hours, then if no payment cross reference with tax office for home address.

It would appear, given our circumstances, that they are holding our details on their database and the database is randomly picking defaulters from the fianl database.

Should they store your details after you have cleared their payment system ? Is that legal ?

dermot_sheehan

Section 64(4) of the Roads Act 1993 (as amended by section 4 of the Roads Act 2007 provides that a default toll may be recovered as due under a contract in a court of competent jurisdiction.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0034/sec0004.html#sec4


Section 53 of the Courts of Justice Act 1936 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1936/en/act/pub/0048/sec0053.html

the district court where the contract was made also has jurisdiction

L1011

My van is now getting randomly charged car prices yet always appearing as Cat 5 LGV on the toll tag statement. Other times its invisible, other times its charged the correct van price. My car is still invisible.

It appears that whatever EFlow do, it involves not taking enough cash off me!

Seth Brundle

I lashed this off to SL&R and to the NRA Head of Communications

Hi Person from SL&R,

I'm concerned over a technical matter which I'm confident that your firm may be able to help me on.

The Bye-Laws (as per http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/archive/2008/july/2008%2007%2025%20IO%20Issue.pdf) clearly state that there are differing forms of toll (commonly referred to as fines).

“Toll” means any toll (including any Applicable Toll or Default Toll) chargeable in accordance with the Acts and these Bye-Laws.

“Applicable Toll” subject to Regulation 15.3, means, at any time and in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the toll determined by the Authority (inclusive of indexation, value added tax and rounding) to be chargeable in respect of such User/Vehicle Class provided that such Applicable Toll shall not exceed the Maximum Toll applicable to such User/Vehicle Class at such time.

“Initial Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class and at any time, the Base Initial Default Toll, adjusted in accordance with Regulation 15.

“Additional Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class and at any time, the Base Additional Default Toll, adjusted in accordance with Regulation 15.

“Base Initial Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount set out opposite such User/Vehicle Class in the column entitled “Base Initial Default Toll” in the table in the First Schedule.

“Base Additional Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount set out opposite such User/Vehicle Class in the column entitled “Base Additional Default Toll” in the table in the First Schedule.

“Base Final Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount set out opposite such User/Vehicle Class in the column entitled “Base Final Default Toll” in the table in the First Schedule.

“Default Toll” means any of:
(a) the Initial Default Toll;
(b) the Additional Default Toll; and
(c) the Final Default Toll.

“Maximum Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount determined in accordance with Regulation 15.

However, Section 13. states:

TOLLS – PUBLICLY AVAILABLE
13.1 A list of the Applicable Tolls for an Unregistered Vehicle authorised by these Bye-Laws shall at all times be exhibited in a conspicuous place at or near the Toll Location on the Toll Road.

Having recently used the M50 bridge, I can confirm (as you are possibly aware) that the only tolls mentioned in a conspicuous place are the Base tolls - but not the following:

* Base Initial Default Toll
* Base Additional Default Toll
* Base Final Default Toll

Am I correct in believing that because the tolls, other than the base toll, are not displayed, then these tolls (i.e. fines) are not legally enforceable and if I am indeed mistaken, can you please clarify under which section of the Bye-Law renders them legally enforceable if they are not displayed in a conspicuous location?

Yours sincerely

Hopefully, we'll see something back soon letting us know what way they view the legislation.

(a bit late now but is it ok?)

mcwhirter

I have been having a problem with the Eflow website. It will not allow me to delete the old bank account and enter a new one. Currently the money I owe is about 4 months worth, they just seem to be adding each unpaid month to the next month. They have not contacted me at all about the unpaid bill. I have emailed them but they either don't reply or say bank account is correct.

Is there another alternative to Eflow which accepts post paid as I am at the end of my tether with this unprofessional company. I have also had them bill me for using a truck on the m50 which I don't have.I have never had this amount of problems with any other business I have dealt with.

guitar

Any outcomes of court cases yet?

simples

mcwhirter wrote: »

I have been having a problem with the Eflow website. It will not allow me to delete the old bank account and enter a new one. Currently the money I owe is about 4 months worth, they just seem to be adding each unpaid month to the next month. They have not contacted me at all about the unpaid bill. I have emailed them but they either don't reply or say bank account is correct.

Is there another alternative to Eflow which accepts post paid as I am at the end of my tether with this unprofessional company. I have also had them bill me for using a truck on the m50 which I don't have.I have never had this amount of problems with any other business I have dealt with.

Hey I'm an ex-employee, but I might have a solution as I got this a few times in the call centre..

Have you tried adding the new bank details first, then making the new details the primary payment method, then deleting the old details? Sometimes customers try to delete old details before adding new ones and the system won't normally allow this.

Alternatively if you call the centre they should be fit to do this for you.

Also if you have a tag account you should check out http://www.tagcompare.ie/ as this details the different tag providers and their terms of service.

A lot of people are with EazyPass but I don't know what they are like as a provider.. also it won't guarantee you will still have a problem-free experience. There were always calls coming in from customers of other tag providers getting billed in error.. something which people may note has nothing to do with the call centre provider :P

Hope this helps!!