Baiting of motorists?

Rowley Birkin QC

I'm convinced that I was bated this morning by an unmarked travelling at about 90km/h from Nenagh to Limerick. I came up behind ready to overtake and noticed the flashers on the rear screen so backed off. I had a line of traffic behind me so one guy overtook at maybe 105-110km/h in an overtaking lane, on came the blue flashers and the guy got pulled.

Really didn't know what to make of the situation. I am wary of passing out a squad car at any point, especially an unmarked travelling at this speed, i.e. within 10% of the speed limit, but this really did smack of bating on the part of the guard. It also crossed my mind that the cop was travelling at this speed given the road conditions that were prevalent this morning and maybe his intention was to slow down traffic to a safer speed??

Again I personally can't make up my mind so I'm throwing it over to to motors for opinions...

What do you think?

Just want to make it clear that my experience of the Guards has been mostly excellent and I would consider them to be a highly professional police force, this incident this morning just had me confused.

Steve

What were the road conditions at the time?

In Dublin this morning on the M50, viz was so bad in the rain that >100kmh wasn't a good idea in some spots.

cyrusdvirus

SteveC wrote: »

What were the road conditions at the time?

In Dublin this morning on the M50, viz was so bad in the rain that >100kmh wasn't a good idea in some spots.

Seconded. Iggots were still playing spot me if you can with their lights off though

Rowley Birkin QC

There was rain and slight amounts of standing water in some parts of the road but visibility was pretty good. It had been poorer earlier in the morning but at this time it was good.

s14driftking

u were being baited imo they were always at it when i used to travel tat stretch of road

RedorDead

bigkev49 wrote: »

I'm convinced that I was bated this morning by an unmarked travelling at about 90km/h from Nenagh to Limerick. I came up behind ready to overtake and noticed the flashers on the rear screen so backed off. I had a line of traffic behind me so one guy overtook at maybe 105-110km/h in an overtaking lane, on came the blue flashers and the guy got pulled.

Really didn't know what to make of the situation. I am wary of passing out a squad car at any point, especially an unmarked travelling at this speed, i.e. within 10% of the speed limit, but this really did smack of bating on the part of the guard. It also crossed my mind that the cop was travelling at this speed given the road conditions that were prevalent this morning and maybe his intention was to slow down traffic to a safer speed??

Again I personally can't make up my mind so I'm throwing it over to to motors for opinions...

What do you think?

Just want to make it clear that my experience of the Guards has been mostly excellent and I would consider them to be a highly professional police force, this incident this morning just had me confused.

Did this happen in the climbing lane? Ive spotted them doing speed checks at the end of that climbing lane before the feckers!

ian25

Could he have been done for overtaking two cars at once, or did he pull in infront of you and then overtook the guards.

Rowley Birkin QC

It was basically all the way from Nenagh to outside Lisnagary when he pulled the guy. Don't know what happened after that as to whether or not he got points or a warning but he pulled him in anyway.

He passed me and the squad car in the climbing lane, albeit at maybe 5-10km over the speed limit.

_Kaiser_

ian25 wrote: »

Could he have been done for overtaking two cars at once, or did he pull in infront of you and then overtook the guards.

It's illegal to overtake more than two cars at once now? I regularly end up doing it to get past a slow moving convoy where the second-from-lead car won't overtake when it's safe to do so.

Henry Ford III

bigkev49 wrote: »

It was basically all the way from Nenagh to outside Lisnagary when he pulled the guy. Don't know what happened after that as to whether or not he got points or a warning but he pulled him in anyway.

He passed me and the squad car in the climbing lane, albeit at maybe 5-10km over the speed limit.

I see the problem right there

Rowley Birkin QC

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I see the problem right there

No objection regarding the actual offence being committed but it was the behaviour of the squad car leading up to it that drew my attention.

Wishbone Ash

ian25 wrote: »

Could he have been done for overtaking two cars at once

Unless a new regulation has been brought in overnight and no one was made aware of it!

Buffman

bigkev49 wrote: »

No objection regarding the actual offence being committed but it was the behaviour of the squad car leading up to it that drew my attention.

I don't really get what behaviour you're refering too, from what I can gather from your post the patrol car was travelling at 90km/h in a 100km/h limit, a car overtook both you and it and got pulled. What exactly is wrong with that?

Steve

bigkev49 wrote: »

No objection regarding the actual offence being committed but it was the behaviour of the squad car leading up to it that drew my attention.

If it was only 5-10k over then I'd have a hard time believing it was a speed stop. The Guards might have had other reasons for stopping them though (e.g. someone that was on the wanted list).

AFAIK the courts take a very dim view of entrapment and as such any speeding charges arising from this would be difficult to prosecute.

Dolph Starbeam

Happened to me before, going between 45 and 50 in a 60 zone for about 3 miles, about 10 cars lined up behind me, of course a "D" reg. Mondeo, i should have known, waited for a clear gap as i was just getting pissed off at this stage, i caught about 2 metres of one of those hatched boxes in the middle of the road, lights come on, sorrry sir. etc. etc. do you realise what you just did? Ye i passed in that silver mondeo in the hatched (*i take a quick peek in my mirror, silver mondeo*) ah cock!!!!

Rowley Birkin QC

I guess it just seemed to me that he was waiting and waiting for someone to pass him out so that he could pull him in for speeding while overtaking. I mean he drove inside the hard shoulder/yellow line a number of times.

-Chris-

I remember when penalty points came out originally I was driving on some residential roads (the reallly long straight road from Taney junction to Long Mile Road, if anyone knows it) and I found myself sitting behind a Garda car.

They were doing bang on 50KMs/30MPH and were pushed right over into the cycle lane, as if to say "go on, overtake us, you know you want to". Luckily I spotted that is was them and I just sat tight, but I'd believe that I was being tested also.

Bear in mind though, that we were being tested rather than baited - it doesn't sound like anyone was being provoked into speeding in either instance, merely tested to see if we'd be tempted to overtake illegally...

Biro

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I see the problem right there

5-10km/h is within 10% of the limit, and judged by a squad car with presumably no calibrated equipment monitoring the offender. Hard to nail that in court, although there may be something else.

Fyr.Fytr

So a car travelling just below the speed limit is a trap?

Yea good one, there can be 101 reasons why the guards decided to stop the other vehicle, would you rather they stopped no one and our road network become a safe haven for traveling criminals?

TheNog

Tbh I don't believe for a second that anyone was being baited to overtake by the unmarked car. They were travelling just over the limit at 90kph to aid the flow of traffic keeping in mind that the guard or gardai in the car were scanning oncoming traffic for registration numbers, the drivers and passengers (for any recognised criminals) and for vehicles being driven in dangerous manner. When that driver overtook a car already doing over the limit they probably just stopped it to caution him/her only with no prosecution unless the garda did see them doing something dangerous to other road users such as overtake multiple cars.

THat is all, nothing more. Happens regularly

jimmycrackcorm

Without a speed detector, I can't see how the guards could prosecute the overtaking driver as the proof would be inadequate. how can they tell how much faster that the guy was going - especially if they were travelling at less than the speed limit?

Seth Brundle

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

So a car travelling just below the speed limit is a trap?

Not directly, however drivers who wish to make better progress on the roads will feel inclined to overtake. When overtaking, the manouvre should be completed ASAP and if this means exceeding the limit slightly then most good drivers will do this. However, this results in the overtaking driver pulling in front of the squad car above the limit.

cyclopath2001

kbannon wrote: »

if this means exceeding the limit slightly then most good drivers will do this.

If you have to break the speed limit while overtaking that means you didn't plan the manouvre correctly. Breaking the speed limit should only happen in unforeseen circumstances.

magick

well if he was bating you, what do u drive? Do u have the whole boy racer look (if not then sorry to be insulting ) ? If not then what do u think the reason was for him to go after you?

eringobragh

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

If you have to break the speed limit while overtaking that means you didn't plan the manouvre correctly. Breaking the speed limit should only happen in unforeseen circumstances.

I said i'd ignore your trolling as your only contribution to motoring is trolling EVERY thread releated to speed limits

But for the love of God get a grip this is the real world, sometimes you have to weight your options and decide what is the greater good i.e keeping the speedlimit while overtaking and possibly encountering a collision or actually use your nogin & put some 'advanced' driving into practice.

The whole idea of overtaking on a single lane road is to complete the manouver as quickly and safely as possible & at time this may involve breaking the speed limit.

Maybe give this a read, you might learn something.

Overtaking Trucks

Trucks travelling at the new open road speed limit of 90 kph will be almost impossible to pass legally. A 90 kph speed limit for heavy trucks and 100 kph for other traffic is practicable.

A car passing a truck travelling at 90 kph will require almost 2 kilometres of clear road ahead if the car observes the rigidly enforced 100 kph limit and the 2 second separation rule before overtaking.

The impact will be that drivers either break the law or effectively the open road speed limit will be reduced to 90 kph.

Calculation

Based on Truck and 90 kph, 2 sec separation beforehand, 10 metre clearance at end, allowing for oncoming traffic at 100kph + 10% clearance of that:

90 kph = 90,000/3600 = 25 metres/sec.

100 kph = 100,000/3600 = 27.8 metres/sec

Distance to pass = (2 x 25) + (Length of Truck) + 10 + (Length of Car)

Say car is 5 metres, truck is 20 metres, then

Relative distance to pass = 50 + 20 + 10 + 5 = 85 metres

Time to pass = 85 metres / 2.8 metres/sec = 30.4 seconds

Distance travelled to pass = 27.8 * 30.4 = 844 metres

Clear distance required to oncoming traffic = (844 x 2) (+ 10%) = 1688 x 1.1

= 1,856 metres = 1.9 kilometres.

Compare this with the similar situation but overtaking at 120 kph and allowing for oncoming traffic at up to 120 kph:

120 kph = 120,000/3600 = 33.3 metres/sec

Time to pass = 85 metres / ( (33.3 - 25) = 8.3) metres/sec = 10.2 secs

Distance travelled to pass = 33.3 x 10.2 = 341 metres

Clear distance required to oncoming traffic = (341 x 2) (+10%) = 682 x 1.1

= 750 metres (allowing for oncoming traffic at 120 kph!)

The overtaking car has also to cope with the possibility that the truck will accelerate during the overtaking process.

The consequence of this is that few cars will be prepared and able to overtake large trucks, average speeds will fall resulting in economic loss through time wasted as well as through more accidents caused by driver frustration.

walshy123

TheNog wrote: »

Tbh I don't believe for a second that anyone was being baited to overtake by the unmarked car. They were travelling just over the limit at 90kph to aid the flow of traffic keeping in mind that the guard or gardai in the car were scanning oncoming traffic for registration numbers, the drivers and passengers (for any recognised criminals) and for vehicles being driven in dangerous manner. When that driver overtook a car already doing over the limit they probably just stopped it to caution him/her only with no prosecution unless the garda did see them doing something dangerous to other road users such as overtake multiple cars.

THat is all, nothing more. Happens regularly

your assuming the limit was 80km?

cyclopath2001

eringobragh wrote: »

sometimes you have to weight your options and decide what is the greater good i.e keeping the speedlimit while overtaking and possibly encountering a collision or actually use your nogin & put some 'advanced' driving into practice..

Or.... just not overtaking. Advanced driving is not just about skill, it's about discipline and patience.

peasant

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

patience.

quite frankly ...mine is running out.

just give it (and all of us) a break for a while, will you?

eringobragh

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or.... just not overtaking. Advanced driving is not just about skill, it's about discipline and patience.

Granted ,but when i'm overtaking i want the manouver completed without the delay & if that means speeding while overtaking so be it. TBH I Think you should stick to the Bicycle:rolleyes:

BoardsRanger

gatecrash wrote: »

Seconded. Iggots were still playing spot me if you can with their lights off though

given the current price of petrol/diesel, it is perfectly acceptable to drive in zero visability conditions with no lights on!
i was driving in the wicklow mountains today in thick fog and some clown in a mercedes didnt deem it necessary to put his lights on!!

Tails142

Isnt there something in the rules of the road (the old version anyway) about it being permissable to exceed the speed limit during an overtaking manoeuvre??

EDIT: After looking up the new one, it says you must NOT I must have a look at the old one though cos I'm nearly positive I read that somewhere.