Baiting of motorists?

Andrewf20

On that road parrallel to the main runway at Dublin Airport, I came across an unmarked mondeo doing 40-45mph on this 50mph limit road. I was dying to overtake, but decided against it. Pain in the hole having to worry about this stuff.

eringobragh

Andrewf20 wrote: »

On that road parrallel ot the main runway at Dublin Airport, I came a cross an unmarked mondeo doing 40-45mph on this 50mph limit road. I was dying to overtake, but decided against it. Pain in the hole having to worry about this stuff.

I know!!

On my way home from work a few weeks ago there was a mondeo on the N4 and I said will i overtake it so i 'asessed' it and saw the 2 aerial stumps on teh roof along with one attached aerial. Anyways this bloke is a modded car blows by them but doesn't get pulled... obviously not traffic cops!

Sponge Bob

bigkev49 wrote: »

I'm convinced that I was baited this morning by an unmarked travelling at about 90km/h from Nenagh to Limerick.

I had one unmark pull off the hard shoulder in front of me once on an EMPTY M4 west of Leixlip bridge and tool along at about 50mph to nearly Maynooth , I slowed down and followed him. He sped up gradually until he hit 90mph with me well behind by now albeit at 90mph .

He eventually he left the motorway at Kilcock and went back to bait someone coming from the west instead .

Different baiting on a busy road though but on an empty Motorway in good conditions , WFT

drunkmonkey

Tails142 wrote: »

Isnt there something in the rules of the road (the old version anyway) about it being permissable to exceed the speed limit during an overtaking manoeuvre??

Not that i'm aware of, I got done for overtaking a jeep with a horsebox....felt a bit hard done by.....

I don't think the Garda bate motorists, not all Garda like to speed, some of them are happy enough to sit back under the speed limit, I've never had any problem after overtaking a garda car that was travelling under the speed limit.....

What I have seen is a speedtap after a speedtrap, I thought it was a cunning move by the officers involved....Basically there was an obvious speeding checkpoint, once passed it every motorist speed up again, low and behold just round the next bend was the bunch of garda bikers ready to catch all the guys who just thought they'd got away with it and started speeding again...brilliant...thankfully I copped it in time...

peasant

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I had one unmark pull off the hard shoulder in front of me once on an EMPTY M4 west of Leixlip bridge and tool along at about 50mph to nearly Maynooth , I slowed down and followed him. He sped up gradually until he hit 90mph with me well behind by now albeit at 90mph .

He eventually he left the motorway at Kilcock and went back to bait someone coming from the west instead .

Different baiting on a busy road though but on an empty Motorway in good conditions , WFT

Huh?

Why on earth didn'y you overtake? He's doing 80 in the driving lane on a motorway, what on earth is preventing you from overtaking him in a well executed maneuvre at max 120 km/h?

I don't see any issue here ...never mind baiting.

eringobragh

peasant wrote: »

Huh?

Why on earth didn'y you overtake? He's doing 80 in the driving lane on a motorway, what on earth is preventing you from overtaking him in a well executed maneuvre at max 120 km/h?

I don't see any issue here ...never mind baiting.

I second that he can hardly do you for overtaking him (unless there was roadworks and a special limit)

Steve

Sponge Bob wrote: »

........tool along at about 50mph to nearly Maynooth , I slowed down and followed him. He sped up gradually until he hit 90mph with me well behind by now albeit at 90mph .

Monkey see - monkey do????

I've overtaken plenty of squad cars (marked and unmarked) on motorways, it's not illegal.:)

Wishbone Ash

eringobragh wrote:

Say car is 5 metres, truck is 20 metres, then

Just wondering where you got that link from eringobragh.

Apologies for being pedantic but the maximum permitted length for any vehicle is 18 metres (unless it has a special permit for carrying an indivisible load). Most articulated trucks are about 15 metres.

drunkmonkey

peasant wrote: »

Huh?

Why on earth didn'y you overtake?

I don't see any issue here ...never mind baiting.

+1

Monkey thinks you were a little afraid, this was your first time and you bottleld it.......Garda don't bait people, robbers do!!:D

eringobragh

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Just wondering where you got that link from eringobragh.

Apologies for being pedantic but the maximum permitted length for any vehicle is 18 metres (unless it has a special permit for carrying an indivisible load). Most articulated trucks are about 15 metres.

No problem mate i used this case as an example of the difference in distance that going a bit over the limit can make when overtaking.

http://www.fastandsafe.org.nz/Pages/Facts/OvertakingTrucks/index.htm

peasant

drunkmonkey wrote: »

+1

Monkey thinks you were a little afraid, this was your first time and you bottleld it

Peasant thinks we should leave talking in the third person to the one and only Pighead (who luckily doesn't make any appearances here)

Sponge Bob

SteveC wrote: »

Monkey see - monkey do????
I've overtaken plenty of squad cars (marked and unmarked) on motorways, it's not illegal.:)

I have CHASED squad cars down motorways but they were obviously 'busy' before I chased them

This lad looked bored and you can't trust a bored traffic cop .

knifey_spoonie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

you can't trust a bored traffic cop .

FIXED

I felt the very same thing happened to me on sunday, was driving along at about 55-60 mph in a 50 zone, came up behind a marked fiesta, he was doing no more than 25-30 mph, but heres the clincher whenever he got to a straight bit of road with clear viability, he was back up to the speed limit.

HoneyButterfly

I Think he was right to pull him in. There's no need to pass out a car going 90km...thats only slighty under the limit. So even if he was baiting, it worked didn't it?!
Does my head in when people pass me out when I'm doing the limit or just under it. I'm interested to know what kind of road it was though, and what the conditions were like?

Steve

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I have CHASED squad cars down motorways but they were obviously 'busy' before I chased them

Did you ever catch one...?

Fair enough, it's still not a reason to slow down just because he's under the limit though.:p

Steve

knife_fighter wrote: »

I felt the very same thing happened to me on sunday, was driving along at about 55-60 mph in a 50 zone, came up behind a marked fiesta, he was doing no more than 25-30 mph, but heres the clincher whenever he got to a straight bit of road with clear viability, he was back up to the speed limit.

I have highlighted the root cause of this for you.;)

drunkmonkey

HoneyButterfly wrote: »

Does my head in when people pass me out when I'm doing the limit or just under it?

Have you the cruise control on?, does my head on when motorists who think there doing the speed limit flucuate between 75 - 100........you can make good progress within the limits and not get over taken.....

wil

Not so much baiting as checking your alertness and powers of observation. It is never a good idea to pass a squad car at anything above the limit, you are just asking for trouble.
The gardai are mostly human too and no doubt liable to the odd spot of boredom, so tempting them is for the terminally silly.

In the Uk they have been known to play "snooker"
Pull a red car, then a colour, then a red then etc etc.
Though they tend to be a bit more reliable in their tolerance though than the lads here. I've rarely seen people pulled by the police for <85mph on motorways, unless they were doing something stupid. yet I have seen someone pulled for crawling past a garda car at most a few kph above the limit. Not cricket.

Andrewf20

I would have no probs overtaking the cops on a motorway if they are below the limit. On a single lane road, it would be very unlikely for me to do it. Having said that, I had a bizarre incident early last year.

- Me on M50 before roadworks started, 11pm heading towards Finglas exit at 75mph in slow lane (inside/outside lane, I can never remember).
- Overtook car doing 60mph and pulled back in. Cop car 400m ahead of me going in same direction at 60mph.
- Overtook cop car doing 60mph and pulled back in. Another car a few hundred metres ahead of me that was trundling along.
- Overtook this as well and moved back in.
- Took Finglas exit, stopped at red light with Joe Duffys to my left. Waiting to take 3rd exit for Ashbourne.
- Cop car comes up beside me, gets me to roll down the window.
- Conversation something like this:

Cop: "Weren't sure where you were going there, were you?"
Me: "What do you mean?"
Cop: "With your weaving in and out of traffic"
Me: "I was just overtaking intermittent traffic and moving back in to the correct lane"
Cop: "Just watch yourself in future", with a big stern look, and he then speeds off.

I indicated correctly as well. You never know what you'll get.

mcwhirter

Biro wrote: »

5-10km/h is within 10% of the limit, and judged by a squad car with presumably no calibrated equipment monitoring the offender. Hard to nail that in court, although there may be something else.

Speedometers are generally designed to read fast by about 10% ( so when you are driving at 120km/h, you could really be only doing 108km/h).
And so driving at 132km/h as shown on your speedometer is really 120km/h.

So if the gardai where driving at 50km/h(speedometer reading), this could only be 45km/h. So to overtake them, you would have to have approx. 55km/h (speedometer reading)to be driving at legal speed limit.
It's takes a long time to overtake at only 5km/h more than the other car, so people generally increase their speed and then get prosecuted.
And it is still the gardai word against yours unless they had a speed camera onboard.
Bear in mind though that unoriginal tyres and wheels can affect the actual speed reading.

minxie

mcwhirter wrote: »

Speedometers are generally designed to read fast by about 10% ( so when you are driving at 120km/h, you could really be only doing 108km/h).
And so driving at 132km/h as shown on your speedometer is really 120km/h.

So if the gardai where driving at 50km/h(speedometer reading), this could only be 45km/h. So to overtake them, you would have to have approx. 55km/h (speedometer reading)to be driving at legal speed limit.
It's takes a long time to overtake at only 5km/h more than the other car, so people generally increase their speed and then get prosecuted.
And it is still the gardai word against yours unless they had a speed camera onboard.
Bear in mind though that unoriginal tyres and wheels can affect the actual speed reading.

so is everyone missjudging their speed??

Mitch Connor

mcwhirter wrote: »

Speedometers are generally designed to read fast by about 10% ( so when you are driving at 120km/h, you could really be only doing 108km/h).

Seemingly a common perception, but not true.

Cars CAN read high by up to 10%, but most cars don't, if they read differently it might only be by 2%, some cars are bang on.

-Chris-

Tauren wrote: »

Seemingly a common perception, but not true.

Cars CAN read high by up to 10%, but most cars don't, if they read differently it might only be by 2%, some cars are bang on.

And it varies depending what speed you're doing - I remember a test of a car that showed it being nearly 10% over at 20-30mph, dead accurate at 50-60mph and 10% over at 80mph (round numbers due to me not remembering the exact details, but the principle's the same...).

mcwhirter

Tauren wrote: »

Seemingly a common perception, but not true.

Cars CAN read high by up to 10%, but most cars don't, if they read differently it might only be by 2%, some cars are bang on.

It's a legal requirement for speedo's to read fast, as stated below:-

The way that speedo's are tested for type approval is as follows.

Vehicle driven at 3 speeds, 40km/h, 80km/h and then 120km/h in a north and south direction on a selection of wheels and tyre sizes after they have been agreed by both manufacturer and in my case the VCA for example.

The true speed is measured by calibrated equipment and the driver must put the needle directly on the speed being recorded.

You then take the true speed of the north and south runs and average them out. Then you subtract the vehicle speedo indicated test speed (V1) from the average speed (V2) to give you a number. V2 is then divided by 10 and you then add 4km/h to that number. This number gives the tolerance that the speedo is allowed to work in.

So for example if the indicated speed was 120km/h and the two runs gave you and average true speed of 114.3km/h (V2) this would then subracted fromthe original 120km/h = 5.7km/h

V2 is then this is divided by 10 and 4km/h added = 15.4km/h. Because the speedo was 5.7km/h under reading, it is within the specified limit.

Mellor

mcwhirter wrote: »

It's a legal requirement for speedo's to read fast, as stated below:-

The way that speedo's are tested for type approval is as follows.

Vehicle driven at 3 speeds, 40km/h, 80km/h and then 120km/h in a north and south direction on a selection of wheels and tyre sizes after they have been agreed by both manufacturer and in my case the VCA for example.

The true speed is measured by calibrated equipment and the driver must put the needle directly on the speed being recorded.

You then take the true speed of the north and south runs and average them out. Then you subtract the vehicle speedo indicated test speed (V1) from the average speed (V2) to give you a number. V2 is then divided by 10 and you then add 4km/h to that number. This number gives the tolerance that the speedo is allowed to work in.

So for example if the indicated speed was 120km/h and the two runs gave you and average true speed of 114.3km/h (V2) this would then subracted fromthe original 120km/h = 5.7km/h

V2 is then this is divided by 10 and 4km/h added = 15.4km/h. Because the speedo was 5.7km/h under reading, it is within the specified limit.

If you are going to try and post a factual post, please make sure that you understand it. That is how they test speedo for tolerance.
The test allows them to read fast. The amount they can read fast is determined by the calcs above ((V-x)/10)+4=x
This gives a tolerance that widens as speed increases, but not proportionally, it is a greater % at 60 than 120. At 120 it can be up to about 14.5 km

But that does not mean that they LEGALLY HAVE TO read fast. They just have a tolerance in case. If they are 100% accurate then its legally fine also.

Alun

Mellor wrote: »

But that does not mean that they LEGALLY HAVE TO read fast. They just have a tolerance in case. If they are 100% accurate then its legally fine also.

They also are not legally allowed to read slow which is why most manufacturers build in some degree of bias (in the software) to make sure they never do. The amount varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and also seems to vary according to speed (i.e. it's not a fixed percentage).

Rovi

Cars CAN read high by up to 10%, but most cars don't, if they read differently it might only be by 2%, some cars are bang on.

Here's the legislation on the subject (see item 5.3 and Annex 3.2)-
Regulation No 39 of the Economic Commission for Europe of the United Nations (UN/ECE) — Uniform provisions concerning the approval of vehicles with regard to the speedometer equipment including its installation
This regulation covers speedometers as fitted to vehicles of Categories L, M, and N (as defined in annex 7 of the Consolidated Resolution on the Construction of Vehicles (R.E.3) (document TRANS/WP.29/78/Rev. 1/Amend. 2)).

Broadly speaking, Category L is vehicles with less than 4 wheels (covering mopeds, motorcycles, trikes, etc), Category M is vehicles having at least 4 wheels and used for the carriage of passengers (cars, buses, etc), and Category N is vehicles having at least 4 wheels and used for the carriage of goods.

Motorcycles aside, the vast majority of the vehicles we all drive and encounter on the road fall into Categories M & N.
In the case of speedometers fitted to these vehicles, speed displayed must be between 0 and 10% + 6km/h of actual speed (Annex 3.2 mentioned above), never lower than actual speed.

It's possible to have someone in a vehicle with a (perfectly legal) speedometer reading at the top end of this range thinking they are doing a nice safe indicated 95km/h, while their actual ground speed is a true 80km/h.

Most cars appear to overestimate by 5-10%, at least according to anecdotal evidence here in the many threads on this subject, and the handful of cars I've actually tested against a variety of GPS devices.

Given this range of possible readings, we can very easily have the scenario of 3 vehicles travelling together at a true 90km/h, with one driver thinking they are doing just under the 100km/h limit and are thus 'safe', another thinking they are running a bit over the limit and hoping they don't get caught, and the one at the back with the GPS wondering "WTF is wrong with these people?"

mcwhirter

Mellor wrote: »

If you are going to try and post a factual post, please make sure that you understand it. That is how they test speedo for tolerance.
The test allows them to read fast. The amount they can read fast is determined by the calcs above ((V-x)/10)+4=x
This gives a tolerance that widens as speed increases, but not proportionally, it is a greater % at 60 than 120. At 120 it can be up to about 14.5 km

But that does not mean that they LEGALLY HAVE TO read fast. They just have a tolerance in case. If they are 100% accurate then its legally fine also.

The article below states the requirements, I can't imagine any manufacturer designing their speedometer to read 100% accurate due to wear and tear etc, although if anyone can find any who do then I'll eat my hat:p

International agreements
In many countries the legislated error in speedometer readings is ultimately governed by the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) Regulation 39[4] which covers those aspects of vehicle type approval which relate to speedometers. The main purpose of the UNECE regulations is to facilitate trade in motor vehicles by agreeing uniform type approval standards rather than requiring a vehicle model to undergo different approval processes in each country in which it is to be sold.
European Union member states must also grant type approval to vehicles meeting similar EU standards. The ones covering speedometers [5] [6][7] are similar to the UNECE regulation in that they specify that:

• The indicated speed must never be less than the actual speed, i.e. it should not be possible to inadvertently speed because of an incorrect speedometer reading.
• The indicated speed must not be more than 110 percent of the true speed plus 4 km/h at specified test speeds. For example, at 80 km/h, the indicated speed must be no more than 92 km/h.

The standards specify both the limits on accuracy and many of the details of how it should be measured during the approvals process, for example that the test measurements should be made (for most vehicles) at 40, 80 and 120 km/h, and at a particular ambient temperature. There are slight differences between the different standards, for example in the minimum accuracy of the equipment measuring the true speed of the vehicle.
The UNECE regulation relaxes the requirements for vehicles mass produced following type approval. The upper limit on indicated speed is increased to 110 percent plus 6 km/h for cars, buses, trucks and similar vehicles, and 110 percent plus 8 km/h for two or three wheeled vehicles which have a maximum speed above 50 km/h (or a cylinder capacity, if powered by a heat engine, of more than 50 cc). European Union Directive 2000/7/EC, which relates to two and three wheeled vehicles, provides similar slightly relaxed limits in production.

_feedback_

Yeah, so eh ....

What was this about again?

Steve

mcwhirter wrote: »

It's a legal requirement for speedo's to read fast, as stated below

Rovi wrote: »

Here's the legislation on the subject (see item 5.3 and Annex 3.2)-

Sorry for being pedantic but that wikipedia stuff is slightly inaccurate. Those type approval regulations, as far as I can see, were never adopted here.
AFAIK Irish law points to 75/443/EEC + 97/39/EC as the legal basis for speedometer accuracy.

The test figures / allowances are the same though.