Keane V Berbatov [One big happy merged thread]

Boggles

rossie1977 wrote: »

in saying that i don't think keane was the right player for liverpool though at this time and £18m for a 28 year old without any champions league experience was a crazy price to pay.

I think this attitude of "He has no Champions League" experience is absolute nonsense, if it were a pre requisite for signing players than it would be very quite on the transfer front.

Should United not have signed Tevez on this basis, when he came he never even dipped his toe in Europe, now he has a champions league winners medal. If you want to be completely pedantic as I stated before Keane played against Champions league opposition at least 8 times a season in United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal.

eagle eye

After reading the thread title over the last few days I decided I'd have a peek and see what is going on in here. To compare these two players is like comparing Wayne Rooney and Marco Van Basten. Two totally different players completely.

If you want to compare Berbatov with anyone in the Premier League it should be Roque Santa Cruz, who started in the Premier League at the same time as him, is similar in that he is a centre forward who does more than just score goals and pound for pound last year was by far the better player of the two.

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

If you want to compare Berbatov with anyone in the Premier League it should be Roque Santa Cruz, who started in the Premier League at the same time as him,

No he didn't.

Santa Cruz had a good first season with Blackburn, but I wouldn't be getting too carried away by him, I certainly wouldn't be putting him anywhere near the level of the 2 players been debated.

Cruz was played alot last season as a loan striker with terrific supply from Bentley, don't think he will prosper as much this season with Bentley now gone.

rossie1977

Boggles wrote: »

I think this attitude of "He has no Champions League" experience is absolute nonsense, if it were a pre requisite for signing players than it would be very quite on the transfer front.

Should United not have signed Tevez on this basis, when he came he never even dipped his toe in Europe, now he has a champions league winners medal. If you want to be completely pedantic as I stated before Keane played against Champions league opposition at least 8 times a season in United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal.

united took tevez on loan for 2 seasons to test the waters, maybe liverpool should have done that they also didn't sell one striker rich in champions league experience to bring him in, not comparable imo

Boggles

rossie1977 wrote: »

united took tevez on loan for 2 seasons to test the waters, maybe liverpool should have done that they also didn't sell one striker rich in champions league experience to bring him in, not comparable imo

Torres had no champions league experience? Should Liverpool not have bought him?

ibh

I replied to this earlier but boards crashed on me so i will have to keep it short cause i haven't time.

Trilla wrote: »

Yeah he wont be as good and is slightly different, but this is the first time he's got to play in a big side. Bergkamp has always played in title challenging teams - Ajax, Inter and Arsenal. Not fit to lace his boots is a bit harsh now come on!

Trilla wrote: »

He's not at the same level and never will be, but not fit to lace his boots is a bit much. I disagree about same levels comment. Berbatov has a way better international record then Keane, in a very similar national side to Ireland. I know that most of you hand on heart would rather a Berbatov then a Robbie Keane in the Irish team. He's not light years ahead but if Keane is worth 21m then Berbatov is worth 32m, or whatever the prices were (both overpriced).

Time will tell as to who will shine better...

ibh wrote: »

Ah come on now? Berbatov is not even in the same league as Bergkamp.
If Berbatov was that great a player he would have been playing in title challenging teams long before now.

Berbatov and Keane are both at a similar level. And it is well below Bergkamp.

Trilla you mentioned that DB had played in title challenging teams and that this somehow had an effect on comparing Berbatov and Bergkamp. That was the only reason i suggested that Berbatov could have been picked up by a top club before now.

How is it relevant for Bergkamp and not for Berbatov.

I actually think Keane and Berbatov were worth about the same but maybe not.. Couple of mil more for Berbatov cause he's younger.
Still think both of them are way overpriced though.

Boggles wrote: »

Berbatov is around the same age as Bergkamp was when he joined Arsenal and started playing the best football of his career.

I never said Berbatov is better than Bergkamp, that would be stupid as one has just reached his prime and the other is retired. He reminds me of Bergkamp, touch, intelligence and temperament.

I would really have a problem if you said he was better than Bergkamp. He is a decent player but not even close to one of the best players that has played in the PL.
Maybe Berbatov will step up to the next level with UTD, but doubt he will be remembered as a PL great.

[QUOTE=Boggles;57224805
As for players only being regarded as great if they only play for a side challenging for titles that is nonsense.

By your logic Torres is shíté! [/QUOTE]

Boggles wrote: »

Torres had no champions league experience? Should Liverpool not have bought him?

Obsessed are we:D:D

rossie1977

Boggles wrote: »

Torres had no champions league experience? Should Liverpool not have bought him?

torres was 22 when liverpool signed him and keane 28 again not really comparable, a fee of £10 or £11m would have been more appropriate for keane given his age, liverpool are not united and able to purchase a £30m+ player when they feel like it or sign a player for £14m e.g. yorke, saha and give them free transfers 2-3 years later

liverpool need to sell to buy, sell bellamy and cisse buy torres, sell crouch buy keane, sell sissoko buy masch, had they signed barry alonso would have to be sold, united didn't sell rooney to buy berbatov and they won't need to sell to raise the £36m to buy tevez, so you cannot compare the two clubs

eagle eye

Boggles wrote: »

No he didn't.

Santa Cruz had a good first season with Blackburn, but I wouldn't be getting too carried away by him, I certainly wouldn't be putting him anywhere near the level of the 2 players been debated.

Cruz was played alot last season as a loan striker with terrific supply from Bentley, don't think he will prosper as much this season with Bentley now gone.

So whats your point here, that because Santa Cruz scored more goals and had more assists than Berbatov that he is not as good. Also due to a horrific time over injuries he did not get to show his true potential at Bayern Munich and he is six months younger as well.
You say David Bentley is the reason he scored so many goals, thats what midfielders are for is to provide for the goalscorers. What I'm saying is that Santa Cruz is the better player based on Premiership performances to date and by a long way.

eagle eye

rossie1977 wrote: »

torres was 22 when liverpool signed him and keane 28 again not really comparable, a fee of £10 or £11m would have been more appropriate for keane given his age, liverpool are not united and able to purchase a £30m+ player when they feel like it or sign a player for £14m e.g. yorke, saha and give them free transfers 2-3 years later

liverpool need to sell to buy, sell bellamy and cisse buy torres, sell crouch buy keane, sell sissoko buy masch, had they signed barry alonso would have to be sold, united didn't sell rooney to buy berbatov and they won't need to sell to raise the £36m to buy tevez, so you cannot compare the two clubs

Just on Robbie Keane and his transfer fee and the age thing.
If that was too much for him, then why on earth would you shell out 30+M on a player 6 months younger?

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

What I'm saying is that Santa Cruz is the better player based on Premiership performances to date and by a long way.

Your point was that they started in the prem league together so they were more comparable, I pointed out that Berbatov has a season more than Santa Cruz.

If you think that Cruz is the better player by a long way than thats your opinion, your either ill informed or basically not a have a clue about football, it's your opinion I don't agree with it or respect it, but unfortunately you are entitled to it.

rossie1977 wrote: »

liverpool are not united and able to purchase a £30m+ player when they feel like it or sign a player for £14m e.g. yorke, saha and give them free transfers 2-3 years later

Both players were at United for 4 years, Yorke was sold for 2.3m and Saha a reported 8m.

Pepe LeFrits

Boggles wrote: »

Cruz was played alot last season as a loan striker

Which surely is a positive about Santa Cruz, as it isn't easy to do that role (although I thought he had a strike partner, at least he did most of the times I saw him play).

with terrific supply from Bentley, don't think he will prosper as much this season with Bentley now gone.

I'm sure Berbatov profitted from the supply he was provided at Spurs too...

Santa Cruz is class and is in the same bracket as Keane and Berbatov. Had Arsenal sold Adebayor, injuries concerns aside, I wouldn't have minded seeing him replace the badgekisser.

eagle eye

Boggles wrote: »

If you think that Cruz is the better player by a long way than thats your opinion, your either ill informed or basically not a have a clue about football, it's your opinion I don't agree with it or respect it, but unfortunately you are entitled to it.

Actually you are right there, he is a season longer in the Prem.

As for this paragraph, all I can say to that is don't insult me with pathetic comments. On last years form there is no question who the better footballer was. The fact that United paid ridiculous money for Berbatov does not mean that he is a better footballer. The fact that he is a United player now does not mean he is a better footballer. The fact that on last seasons form Santa Cruz was ahead in both goals and assists does mean something. Santa Cruz would not be seen as a shrewd investment because he was prone to injuries for so long. A good run in the premiership this year and all that changes.
One more point on this issue is the personality traits of these players. While one was off crying like a baby and demanding a transfer, whilst showing a complete lack of respect for his club at the time, the other player considered his options and decided that he would stay loyal to the club who signed him the previous season.
How dare you come out with this 'I know football and you don't attitude', its clear from many of your posts that you're judgment is clouded when United players are discussed.
As you said everyone is entitled to their opinion on soccer, but don't come out with rubbish about what I know about soccer. I can guarantee you for certain that I've forgotten more than you will ever know about the game.

Mitch Connor

eagle eye wrote: »

Actually you are right there, he is a season longer in the Prem.

As for this paragraph, all I can say to that is don't insult me with pathetic comments. On last years form there is no question who the better footballer was. The fact that United paid ridiculous money for Berbatov does not mean that he is a better footballer. The fact that he is a United player now does not mean he is a better footballer. The fact that on last seasons form Santa Cruz was ahead in both goals and assists does mean something. Santa Cruz would not be seen as a shrewd investment because he was prone to injuries for so long. A good run in the premiership this year and all that changes.
One more point on this issue is the personality traits of these players. While one was off crying like a baby and demanding a transfer, whilst showing a complete lack of respect for his club at the time, the other player considered his options and decided that he would stay loyal to the club who signed him the previous season.
How dare you come out with this 'I know football and you don't attitude', its clear from many of your posts that you're judgment is clouded when United players are discussed.
As you said everyone is entitled to their opinion on soccer, but don't come out with rubbish about what I know about soccer. I can guarantee you for certain that I've forgotten more than you will ever know about the game.

How about we compare their record in germany?

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

A The fact that on last seasons form Santa Cruz was ahead in both goals and assists does mean something.

You would want to check your assists facts, thats the 2nd time you have said Santa Cruz has more assists than Berbtatov last season, which would make it 2 glaring errors on your behalf.

eagle eye wrote: »

I can guarantee you for certain that I've forgotten more than you will ever know about the game.

That looks to be partly true.

ibh

Tauren wrote: »

How about we compare their record in germany?

Why don't you start a new thread? Berbatov and Santa Cruz.

Mitch Connor

Santa Cruz last season - 19 goals, 7 assists (prem)
Berbatov last season - 15 goals, 11 assists (prem)

German records (all comps while at German club):
Santa Cruz
06/07 3 goals.
05/06 4 goals.
04/05 0 goals
03/04 5 goals.

Berbatov

05/06 26 goals.
04/05 29 goals
03/04 16 goals.

Yeah - on the same bloody level.

Mitch Connor

ibh wrote: »

Why don't you start a new thread? Berbatov and Santa Cruz.

I'm not the one who brought Santa Cruz into the discussion.

eagle eye

Tauren wrote: »

How about we compare their record in germany?

If you read my whole post I mentioned Santa Cruz has suffered badly with injury.

ibh

Boggles wrote: »

Your point was that they started in the prem league together so they were more comparable, I pointed out that Berbatov has a season more than Santa Cruz.

If you think that Cruz is the better player by a long way than thats your opinion, your either ill informed or basically not a have a clue about football, it's your opinion I don't agree with it or respect it, but unfortunately you are entitled to it.


Both players were at United for 4 years, Yorke was sold for 2.3m and Saha a reported 8m.

This is a perfect example of why the soccer forum on Boards is offputting to a lot of posters.

Boggles, i really am not surprised that you have pissed a lot of people off here because a post like that doesn't portray a likeable fellow.
I personally think you do it just to stir shit, but you should show some respect for fellow contributers.

ibh

Tauren wrote: »

I'm not the one who brought Santa Cruz into the discussion.

I never said you were, i was actually being serious. Rather than continue it on here i think if people want to discuss it they should start another thread.

Mr Alan

So Berbatov doing it an extra season over Santa Cruz is of major relevance when comparing the two....but Keane doing it in the PL for years longer than Berba is of no relevance?

(dont give me, Berba did it in Germany ****e, scoring records mean **** all when moving leagues as Kuyt,Kezman,Morientes,Forlan etc can confirm)

Boggles

ibh wrote: »

This is a perfect example of why the soccer forum on Boards is offputting to a lot of posters.

Boggles, i really am not surprised that you have pissed a lot of people off here because a post like that doesn't portray a likeable fellow.
I personally think you do it just to stir shit, but you should show some respect for fellow contributers.

IBH I havn't a clue who you are, but I know your not a moderator so get off the back seat and argue the posts not the poster. Good lad.

Mitch Connor

Yeah - and even the seasons where he did play he didn't get many goals.

06-07 - 18 starts, 20 subs and 3 goals. Awesome.
03/04 - 24 starts, 13 subs and 6 goals. Brilliant.

04/05 and 05/06 were ruined by injuries though.

ibh

Boggles wrote: »

IBH I havn't a clue who you are, but I know your not a moderator so get off the back seat and argue the posts not the poster. Good lad.

I'm not trying to be a mod. I'm pointing out that what you posted was, to me, one of the reasons why people would avoid coming into this forum.

This is not a back seat modding attempt but an opinion. Mind you i'm sure you don't give a fcuk about that.

eagle eye

Here are the opta stats for last season.

Total shots attempted
Ronaldo 131
Adebayor 104
Torres 96
Gerrard 89
Rooney 85
Bentley 83
Berbatov 82
Tevez 82
Carew 80
Santa Cruz 77



Assists
Fabregas 17
Young 14
Barry 10
Kalou 10
Rooney 10
Bentley 9
Berbatov 9
Elano 9
Nani 9
Shorey 9



Percentage of goals involved in

Cristiano Ronaldo 47%
Roque Santa Cruz 47%
Fernando Torres 42%
Elano 39%
Emmanuel Adebayor 37%

My mistake there, I was mixing up the percentage of goals involved in with assist records.

Pepe LeFrits

Tauren wrote: »

Yeah - and even the seasons where he did play he didn't get many goals.

06-07 - 18 starts, 20 subs and 3 goals. Awesome.
03/04 - 24 starts, 13 subs and 6 goals. Brilliant.

04/05 and 05/06 were ruined by injuries though.

More relevant is the most recent season, when he scored as many as Berbatov but played considerably less. Even more relevant imo would be judging the player on his performances by watching him play instead of using statistics which don't tell the whole story. For example, in the season prior to 03/04, Santa Cruz was ruined by injury again, although he did manage 5 goals in 14 games which is somewhat better than Berbatov managing 5 in 31. Likewise 3 goals in 06/07 is certainly poor but then he had just come back from being injured for the guts of 2 years and was in and out of the team.

Anyway, Berbatov is a better player than Keane. It has been apparent the majority of the times I've seen them playing together.

Nalz

Lads,

Ive read through this. From the Berkamp comments to the Santa Cruz inclusions... stats pulled from here, stats pulled from there. United fans defending the purchase, Liverpool fans laughing at the price for Berbatov.

I think most argree that Berbatov is better then Keane, whether its slightly or not. I think he is reasonably better then Keane, and I do believe that he would suit both Liverpool and Manchester United better then Robbie Keane would. I honestly hand on heart would perfer him in my national team then Keane.

I dont think its a massive gap, but like what JimTime said...what is the yardstick for defining how much a club plays for a player? I thought that was a great post.

United had competition from other clubs
Spurs held firm
Big clubs always pay over the odds.

Has Berbatovs value shot up 12m or whatever it was in those two years? possibley not, but who or how can you define an exact value on a player these days. Only by comparing I suppose. All that is again down to opinion. Berbatov has a fantastic international scoring record for an average country (which are on a par to us imo). He's only played for them since 1999, one big competition and he's netted 41 goals. Also, in some peoples eyes he's not an out and out goalscorer and he's not played in a really big side. Similar to Yorke I suppose in that context...he was banging them in for United, but I dont think his record at Villa was outstanding. His fee was pretty big AFAIR, along the lines of 13m or so I think.

I think this thread went too far, and it seems like only time is going to tell for some people how well Berbatov is going to do at Old Trafford. I have a great feeling about this guy.

eagle eye

Comparing players is one thing, how he will do at United is a totally different thing. A big centre forward who can hold up play is clearly what United have needed.
Not only will Berbatov score, but I'd expect a lot of goals from Rooney as well because of his inclusion. I fully expect him to be a revelation at United. I don't agree that he is worth the money paid for him. I think comparing him to Robbie Keane is like comparing chalk and cheese, two totally different players. I don't think its a fair comparison but if you asked me who I'd buy I would have no doubt that Berbatov would be my first buy of these two players. The reasons being goals and assists, the ablity to hold up the ball. I think its a pity they split up though as I think they could have become a great partnership, much like I see him and Rooney becoming a great partnership.

monkey9

"If you think that Cruz is the better player by a long way than thats your opinion, your either ill informed or basically not a have a clue about football, it's your opinion I don't agree with it or respect it, but unfortunately you are entitled to it."



You're really not in a position to say stuff like this Boggles, not after some of the sh!te you've posted on pages. Pot! Kettle! Black!

smemon

Berbatov is head an shoulders above Keane. Keane is a manufactured captain and an over rated player. Always has been. Is he a good striker - yes. But he's not a big 4 striker imo. He belongs at a bigish cup side club like newcastle or spurs.

Berabtov is a class act and the Cantona of his time. You can just see the difference by the way both players look for and control the ball. Keane looks for defenders to back in to and spin off, whereas Berbatov just looks for space.

Berabatov is a more natural player imo and that's what gives him the x factor above the likes of Keane. Torres by the way is a class act and a much better play than Keane. The problem with Keane is that he's not a target man nor is he a flair player (even though that's what he's bracketed as)... he tries to be both and that's the problem - he's master at neither.

eagle eye

smemon wrote: »

Berbatov is head an shoulders above Keane. Keane is a manufactured captain and an over rated player. Always has been. Is he a good striker - yes. But he's not a big 4 striker imo. He belongs at a bigish cup side club like newcastle or spurs.

Berabtov is a class act and the Cantona of his time. You can just see the difference by the way both players look for and control the ball. Keane looks for defenders to back in to and spin off, whereas Berbatov just looks for space.

Berabatov is a more natural player imo and that's what gives him the x factor above the likes of Keane. Torres by the way is a class act and a much better play than Keane. The problem with Keane is that he's not a target man nor is he a flair player (even though that's what he's bracketed as)... he tries to be both and that's the problem - he's master at neither.

WAT???

Nalz

eagle eye wrote: »

WAT???

He probably means he's the nearest in terms of style and type of player. That was 16 years ago when Eric signed for Manchester United and a different era. Maybe Berba would have been as good and as Influential then. But we can never say that.

All I know is he will make a big difference to United, but not the type that Cantona or Roy Keane did.

kida

thoughts now

Berba starting to look good

Keane looking more like a dud every match.

Keane to Spurs for 15M in January

Frankie Lee

kida wrote: »

thoughts now

Berba starting to look good

Keane looking more like a dud every match.

Keane to Spurs for 15M in January

Liverpool would be doing well to get that.

Mr Alan

Keane has been doing well for Liverpool up until the last couple of games, goal against Athletico was very important and a good finish, also put in near MOM performances against Utd and Everton in a his first few games. He has been a big part in our excellent start to the season.

Looks uneasy up top on his own, but happy enough with him overall this far, expect much better performances when Torres is back tbh.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

expect much better performances when Torres is back tbh.

I expect him to be on the bench.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

I expect him to be on the bench.

Boggles my friend....you're expectations this year, have been some wat off the boil.

If i were you i'd keep it zipped

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Boggles my friend....you're expectations this year, have been some wat off the boil.

If i were you i'd keep it zipped

Thanks for the advice master Alan, but I think I will pass. Cheers anyways.

Who is going to make way for Torres so?

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

I expect him to be on the bench.

Doubtful. When all players have been available this season Benitez has played Keane and Torres together. The real question is whether Keane will play on the left or behind Torres.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Doubtful. When all players have been available this season Benitez has played Keane and Torres together. The real question is whether Keane will play on the left or behind Torres.

He hasn't started on the left this season thou, has he?

That means Masch will make way, Gerrard will have to drop into the centre.

If he is played on the left, Reira is gone.

RasTa

Kuyt looks a much better player then Keane this season. That's how bad he looks in this Liverpool side. I thought he did nothing against United

Sizzler

OK, so some tabloids have had a slow news day today and reckon Happy Harry will be tabling a bid to take Robbie back to the lane :eek: Personally can't see it happening but he has had a fairly inauspicious start to his Anfield career.

So Liverpool fans, you knew what you were getting when he was signed, would you send him back if you got your money back? Has he been a waste of money? Is this all farcical kneejerk stuff and he should be reinstated to the team and allowed show his worth and let him see out his contract till he's worth fcuk all? Would Robbie even entertain such an idea if Rafa was to show him the doras?

Berbatov. Everybody knew he was a moody / lazy pox but possessed a great talent and is well able to bury chances on his day. He's showed glimmers of his talent so far at Utd but for £32m he has been a bit of a letdown imho. He has fantastic touches and rarely wastes a pass when given the ball, but heck thats usually outside the box :rolleyes: He has yet to really stamp his authority on a premier league game. Theres talk today of Utd trying to trump Man City for Santa Cruz in the transfer window, again cant see that happening as Blackburn need him more than Utd and Rovers would effectively be signing their own passport down to the championship were they to let him go.
Tevez isnt an out and out goal scorer but he also possesses a real talent and you can be sure he wil work his bollix off when he plays. For me Berba has yet to hit the heights but I dont think a spell on the bench would do him any harm Fellow Man U fans? Convinced? How do you feel about him getting in ahead of Tevez? Was he worth the cash? Whats your view after his first few months?

In summary, Spurs did a cracking bit of business if the first half of the season is anything to go by for these two players!

redout

Spurs made ridiculous money on both. Neither of them was worth what they were sold for. I reckon they would be doing better if they had stayed at Spurs. If spurs offered me £32 Million I would gladly give Berbatov back and try for Villa.

RasTa

I remember this sort of nonsense by the fairweather fans when Rio arrived with 30 million on his head.

Sizzler

RasTa wrote: »

I remember this sort of nonsense by the fairweather fans when Rio arrived with 30 million on his head.

Fairweather my hoop.

Fans can only comment on what they see before them, they dont have a crystal ball.

copacetic

Sizzler wrote: »

Fairweather my hoop.

Fans can only comment on what they see before them, they dont have a crystal ball.

thats why most people don't bother making threads like this when they know most of the best players in the world took a year or two to settle in at their clubs..

Sizzler

copacetic wrote: »

thats why most people don't bother making threads like this when they know most of the best players in the world took a year or two to settle in at their clubs..

I don't think Keane or Berbatov fall into the best players in the world category but I'm sure they are delighted you think so

Karmafaerie

Berbatov

Sizzler wrote: »

I don't think Keane or Berbatov fall into the best players in the world category but I'm sure they are delighted you think so

Just like I'm sure they're devasted that you don't.

They're crying reading this thread.
You made them cry.

ghouldaddy07

Best player in the world catagory should not exist except in the sun or awful sky one football documentries.

Regarding the the thread topic. It depends on what you define a waster as regarding football.

Karmafaerie

Berbatov

.