Airsoft News [READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING]

hightower1

Needs the silencer and LAM unit to come with ftw.... and NOT cost ridiculous amounts of cash for a pistol like the 5/7., aeg money for a sidearm? Yeah right.

Inari

hightower1 wrote: »

Needs the silencer and LAM unit to come with ftw.... and NOT cost ridiculous amounts of cash for a pistol like the 5/7., aeg money for a sidearm? Yeah right.

If you're not prepared to pay for quality, then you don't get quality, in my opinion. Nor will you get innovation. Innovation is expensive.

The likes of KWC, KJW, HFC, etc pistols are great little pistols. They're decent quality in terms of both build and performance, but their more expensive counterparts, e.g. TM, really are superior, and they know it, so they set their costs accordingly, which keeps the overall price high. The Five-SeveN and PX-4 are worlds apart from most other pistols as far as accuracy, economy and build quality are concerned.

KSC/KWA pistols are nice pieces of kit, with reasonable prices. They're on par with KJW, at least in my opinion. Redesigning gas systems is expensive (R&D costs), and if you add in accessories it will bump up costs, and that cost is passed on to us, the consumers.

I love pistols, and I also love bargain pistols...but the trade off is always performance. Maruzen PPK V ACM PPK; Maruzen is a little under twice the price of the ACM, but performs better (tighter groupings, more economic on gas), has a superior build quality (even though ABS), and stronger recoil. The other is metal, and cheap, so sells. But side by side the Maruzen is the higher quality, and they will make you pay for it.

Sorry for the side-track post

NakedDex

hightower1 wrote: »

Needs the silencer and LAM unit to come with ftw.... and NOT cost ridiculous amounts of cash for a pistol like the 5/7., aeg money for a sidearm? Yeah right.

So you want a full metal, blowback, System 7 Mk23 with a fully operational LAM unit and suppressor for less than the price of the existing TM Mk23 plastic NBB with a non-functional LAM unit and suppressor? Seriously? You're not seeing a problem there?
Unless KWA/KSC have some seriously questionable funding for this Mk23's production, I'd expect it to be a GBB on it's own for about the €170-€200 mark. If it comes with a suppressor I'd expect more again. it's not just a case of paying for quality, or R&D. That's a bloody large handgun. Desert Eagles levels of large. It has more metal in it's slide than most guns have in the entire frame. Big, heavy, unrivalled in it's market (nearest competitor is plastic at least) and heavily anticipated. Not a chance of it being cheap.
It's not a case of being "AEG money", because if you're considering buying this, you're not a budget AEG user either. This, like the 5-7 and it's ilk, is targeted at the more discerning skirmisher and collector, both markets known to happily spend that money on a quality product.

I have seen nothing to suggest it isn't on it, though I'd be surprised if it was, but I think they'll be missing a serious trick if they don't include a simple mech to operate one of the features that made the Mk23 so unique and famous: the so-called "assassin switch". It's basically just a slide lock switch, that locks the slide in place, but allows the hammer to operate. It was designed to be used in tandem with the suppressor, allowing the user to completely minimise the noise output by removing the action sound. The spent casing was then manually ejected by racking later.
In an airsoft iteration, this feature could turn a GBB into an NBB for a single shot. Couple that with a good suppressor and you could potentially have an incredible advantage for some situations, particularly snipers who prefer GBB's or for night/stealth games.
Best of both worlds.

Inari

NakedDex wrote: »

In an airsoft iteration, this feature could turn a GBB into an NBB for a single shot. Couple that with a good suppressor and you could potentially have an incredible advantage for some situations, particularly snipers who prefer GBB's or for night/stealth games.
Best of both worlds.

Interesting. Any ideas how that would work for the GBB mechanism? On most (if not all) GBB pistols, they rely on the slide to push the hammer back to disable the magazine valve. If they used quite a stiff valve to simultaneously push the hammer into half-cock

Firekitten

NakedDex wrote: »

I think they'll be missing a serious trick if they don't include a simple mech to operate one of the features that made the Mk23 so unique and famous: the so-called "assassin switch". It's basically just a slide lock switch, that locks the slide in place, but allows the hammer to operate. It was designed to be used in tandem with the suppressor, allowing the user to completely minimise the noise output by removing the action sound. The spent casing was then manually ejected by racking later.
In an airsoft iteration, this feature could turn a GBB into an NBB for a single shot. Couple that with a good suppressor and you could potentially have an incredible advantage for some situations, particularly snipers who prefer GBB's or for night/stealth games.
Best of both worlds.

Didn't that feature not make it to the production model that was actually bought by the navy? I coulda sworn that was dropped in an attempt to give colt a patriotic leg up when they c ouldnt make one too..

NakedDex

Correct, but it was by special request. It's still a feature of the pistol available to anyone who doesn't want it removed. I heard rumours that some models made it to the Navy with the feature intact in the early stages.

Inari wrote: »

Interesting. Any ideas how that would work for the GBB mechanism? On most (if not all) GBB pistols, they rely on the slide to push the hammer back to disable the magazine valve. If they used quite a stiff valve to simultaneously push the hammer into half-cock

The operation would be similar to the real one. In the real operation, the slide is simply locked and the recoil-reload-recock mechanism is disengaged. The shot is fired, but the slide stays put and the hammer ends up at the rest position with the casing still in the chamber. Once done, the switch is reset back to standard operation, re-engaging the reload-recock mech and slide is then racked to empty the chamber, recock the hammer and reload the next round.
Essentially, the airsoft version would follow the same system. Disengage and lock the slide before firing and you'll only get one round off before having to rack the slide to reload and recock. The shot will still fire, but the entire firing mech will remain uncocked and unready to fire until the slide is racked, after which it will return to regular GBB operation until you hit that switch again.

hightower1

Inari wrote: »

If you're not prepared to pay for quality, then you don't get quality, in my opinion. Nor will you get innovation. Innovation is expensive.

I'm all for quality.... but quality at the right price.
VW consider themselves far superior quality wise in the car world but yet price themselves at nearly double the competition in some places. Is the product literally twice as good as the competitor? because thats what the price point would have you believe? In terms of the high end pistols, no doubt they will be expensive but is ANY pistol worth 200eur +? IMO there is a level where quality simply can no longer justify a price. You could make any conceivable production item in the world from the finest materials with the best processes to give you the end result of a almost perfect item but when said item then costs astronomical amounts of money will it really be a marketable success???? No is the answer.

The MK23 should not cost huge amounts of money but as I said the price needs to reflect what you are getting and NOT what the manufacturers perceive quality rating is over the competition, eventually self praise leads to one pricing themselves out of the market. Its all about balance, sure they could make the mk23 the finest pistol money can buy, will it make it so expensive that no one will ever see it? possibly. Would that be a success? No if thats the case, but it they make sure the quality and price have a direct relationship to each other while making sure one doesnt run away with the other then yes, people will buy it. IMO the example of the 5/7 is perfect for this seeing as it is indeed a fine pistol but is it JUSTIFIED @ being double; hell, nearly triple the price of other pistols? I dont think so, and thats why next to no one has one.

Captain Chaos

hightower1 wrote: »

IMO the example of the 5/7 is perfect for this seeing as it is indeed a fine pistol but is it JUSTIFIED @ being double; hell, nearly triple the price of other pistols? I dont think so, and thats why next to no one has one.

Double and triple the price!! Wa? The TM 5-7 only cost me €40 more than my go to GBBs which are the KJW P226 and P229. Is it €40 better in performance? Yep, very much so.

The S7/NS2 USPs though are very expensive here though, they are twice the price and are not twice the performance. I import KSC and KWA GBBs myself as it works out a good bit cheaper than retail prices here more than any other products for some reason.

MerryDespot

Yeah - same - 5-7 cost me slightly more than the cost of a KWA or similar pistol. For that you get a pistol that outperforms a lot of the aegs (as stock guns) you'd get for the same price (i.e. low end china clones).

CpcRc

NakedDex wrote: »

The operation would be similar to the real one. In the real operation, the slide is simply locked and the recoil-reload-recock mechanism is disengaged. The shot is fired, but the slide stays put and the hammer ends up at the rest position with the casing still in the chamber. Once done, the switch is reset back to standard operation, re-engaging the reload-recock mech and slide is then racked to empty the chamber, recock the hammer and reload the next round.
Essentially, the airsoft version would follow the same system. Disengage and lock the slide before firing and you'll only get one round off before having to rack the slide to reload and recock. The shot will still fire, but the entire firing mech will remain uncocked and unready to fire until the slide is racked, after which it will return to regular GBB operation until you hit that switch again.

Are you talking about a system which would function like this easy and cheap DIY mod?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tVXLfT07H0

I found this video months ago when I was looking at what DIY mods are available in airsoft if I felt like trying anything.

NakedDex

The end result is similar but it would be operationally different. It essentially works like a selector switch, so in airsoft terms it would be, in effect, a selector between NBB and GBB. What he has done in that video is successfully convert a GBB into an NBB, which, while admittedly impressively quiet, is quite redundant given he could have just started with a decent NBB and suffered no work.
It's all hypothetical as I'd put money on it not being incorporated in this new model, but it's certainly a possible design feature and one that would certainly make some people very happy.

hightower1 wrote: »

I'm all for quality.... but quality at the right price.
VW consider themselves far superior quality wise in the car world but yet price themselves at nearly double the competition in some places. Is the product literally twice as good as the competitor? because thats what the price point would have you believe? In terms of the high end pistols, no doubt they will be expensive but is ANY pistol worth 200eur +? IMO there is a level where quality simply can no longer justify a price. You could make any conceivable production item in the world from the finest materials with the best processes to give you the end result of a almost perfect item but when said item then costs astronomical amounts of money will it really be a marketable success???? No is the answer.

The MK23 should not cost huge amounts of money but as I said the price needs to reflect what you are getting and NOT what the manufacturers perceive quality rating is over the competition, eventually self praise leads to one pricing themselves out of the market. Its all about balance, sure they could make the mk23 the finest pistol money can buy, will it make it so expensive that no one will ever see it? possibly. Would that be a success? No if thats the case, but it they make sure the quality and price have a direct relationship to each other while making sure one doesnt run away with the other then yes, people will buy it. IMO the example of the 5/7 is perfect for this seeing as it is indeed a fine pistol but is it JUSTIFIED @ being double; hell, nearly triple the price of other pistols? I dont think so, and thats why next to no one has one.

I'm going to respond to the car analogy first.
In short, yes. A Volkswagen is worth considerably more than it's competitors because it's considerably better. Let's compare two similarly sized and specced European, base model hatchbacks that are popular here: the VW Polo and the Renault Megane. The Megane costs less from the start, despite it's rather impressive looks and features over the quite plain looking Polo. It's also cheaper to pick up used.
Why? Because it's pants. It's fraught with electrical problems ranging from mundane (cabin lights) to outright dangerous (engine management). They're unreliable and the model previous to the current one has insane handling issues if it so much as crosses a puddle. The "known faults" list includes doozies like rating the timing belt change interval 20k higher than it should (which resulted in my mother having to get an engine rebuild costing €2500 about two years back, so it's not a small issue) and one or more electric windows in the car going to the down position and staying there. Permanently.
The Polo, however, is regarded as one of the most reliable cars in it's class. Puts up few faults, solid build, few electronics to go wrong and is generally a good choice. Nobody has horror stories with a Polo. I could tell you at least six about the Megane from the top of my head.

You pay for what you get. Saying something is too expensive because it's good, and it'll never sell because of it, is utter tosh. People will always pay for quality. That's why every market has a luxury sector. That's why First Class and hypercars exist. It's why I'm on a six month waiting list for a restaurant reservation and why a fashion photographers camera costs 400-700 times more than an average compact camera.
It's also why Inokatsu are making a 1911 that's going to cost a rumoured €500+, and there's people already queuing to own one.

hightower1

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Double and triple the price!! Wa? The TM 5-7 only cost me €40 more than my go to GBBs which are the KJW P226 and P229.

Yeah, here it is..

eac mauri five seven is 235usd

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/eac-fn-five-seven-2-tone-custom-olive-drab.html

The Mauri standard version is 165 usd (still just under double the price of the 229)

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/tokyo-marui-fn-five-seven-with-light-gbb-pistol-dark-earth.html

kjw 229 is 90usd

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/kj-works-p229-full-metal-gbb-pistol.html

Thats 2.5 times the price. I cant justify that kind of money for any sidearm when compared to the price of the likes of the kjw 229 or 226 which are very reasonably priced when quality is taken into account. No doubt the quality is better but you cant make something to such high quality standards (comparative to the competition) and charge accordingly. It just wont sell in any reasonable numbers. I suspect TM got a little high on their brand rep and the market isnt responding purchase wise. It bangs of rip off from a company too high on their own rep and I just cant see it being value for money..... I hope the TM is price for value for money (not cheap mind, but the substance would want to reflect the price rvice versa)

Leftyflip

Where did you get 235 from? Ehobby has the 5-7 listed at 165?

Captain Chaos

In this country, at retail the KJW P226/229 is ~€130, the TM 5-7 is €169. It is odd that certain things cost a good bit more than others though after import at retail, guess it comes down to whole sale suppliers.

You can get an Army G17 for ~€100 and a metal slide S7 USP is ~€200. That's very well justified with the build quality and performance difference.

richieffff

Captain Chaos wrote: »

In this country, at retail the KJW P226/229 is ~€130, the TM 5-7 is €169. It is odd that certain things cost a good bit more than others though after import at retail, guess it comes down to whole sale suppliers.

You can get an Army G17 for ~€100 and a metal slide S7 USP is ~€200. That's very well justified with the build quality and performance difference.

You can get it for €150 in ireland

Firekitten

NakedDex wrote: »

The operation would be similar to the real one. In the real operation, the slide is simply locked and the recoil-reload-recock mechanism is disengaged. The shot is fired, but the slide stays put and the hammer ends up at the rest position with the casing still in the chamber. Once done, the switch is reset back to standard operation, re-engaging the reload-recock mech and slide is then racked to empty the chamber, recock the hammer and reload the next round.
Essentially, the airsoft version would follow the same system. Disengage and lock the slide before firing and you'll only get one round off before having to rack the slide to reload and recock. The shot will still fire, but the entire firing mech will remain uncocked and unready to fire until the slide is racked, after which it will return to regular GBB operation until you hit that switch again.

Thats going to result in farkin EPIC fps for the single shot if its all vectored down the barrel instead of the blowback too... (similar to an npas valve I guess... ?)

NakedDex

Like I said, it's hypothetical, but just because the blowback action doesn't occur, doesn't mean the gas from both firing and blowback is dumped through the chamber. Think of it like holding a gate shut in high wind; the gate will stay closed and the wind will escape around it. Locking the slide wouldn't reorientate the gas flow, just ensure the resultant pressure doesn't cause the slide to move. The pressure isn't that high, relatively speaking, so it's easily enough managed.

Firekitten

I expect if the pressure reached a limit in the blowback chamber, the gas would simply divert to the chamber... although the chamber isnt designed to stand against the pressure, but be moved with it... i can see it doing damage to a gun if its forced to vent around its seals.

NakedDex

That's where some designing comes in. Wouldn't take much to put in a release valve. The frame is certainly big enough.

Blazer

ye f*ckers....thanks to your pistol discussions I just purchased a TM PX-4...b*stards the lot of ye

Firekitten

NakedDex wrote: »

That's where some designing comes in. Wouldn't take much to put in a release valve. The frame is certainly big enough.

Indeed... i may get one and perform a little Frankensteinesque surgery on it... Kitty Kustoms may be revived.

The modern prometheus has nothing on what may come out of my laboratory...

Hivemind187

Sc@recrow wrote: »

ye f*ckers....thanks to your pistol discussions I just purchased a TM PX-4...b*stards the lot of ye

... and I bet we wont get a comission :rolleyes:

Bernie Mac

WE put up a new video of their new AK to be released.

http://youtu.be/7NT51IKV3Fo

MerryDespot

Fixed that for you:

hightower1

He is some gas character. If only I had a boss like that.
He just comes off as a guy who really loves what he makes and takes the time to really see how people perceive the product and his company.
Liked the bit at the end where he just outlined what he wants from WE bbrs... big realism.... big quality and big kick. Guys a class act. Bought 3 gbbrs from we already, soon to be 4 and I am not ashamed in saying a lot of it is due to this guys business attitude. Have a we m4, had the scar, then the pdw and in each iteration you can literally see how they strive to make each gbbr package better than the last. Not that the m4 was bad or anything but they definitely arent resting on their laurels.

Genghiz Cohen

WE are one of my favourite manufacturers right now.
TM mastered the AEG, can WE do it for GBB?

MerryDespot

If they can sort their hop-up issues, perhaps. The ability to be able to use standard aeg hops, hop rubbers and tight bores would be a major plus. I think some of the newer ones (G36) can - but the older GBBRs are stuck with one or two hop-up replacement options.

bullets

Yeah like the way that James guy presents stuff.
Would love a stamped steel and wood AK47 GBB!

I got a little confused around the part where he starts talking about
people not wanting to use CO2 and then he goes to look at a C02 ampule and pops an ampule into a mag.

I was wondering if they had a green gas mag AND a Co2 mag and he was using the green gas one at the start of the video and then tried a C02 mag.
or if my some miracle they made a magazine where in one section you could
pop in a Co2 ampule and power the gun and in the same magazine you had a separate reservoir where you could fill with propane/134a

It would be nice if you could Purchase 1 magazine and have it physically able
for you to select either putting a C02 ampule/sparklet into it OR filling with gas.

~B

hightower1

I can see a WE gbb tar coming next year. With spending the time on developing the g36 range being polymer based and now with the bullpup design nailed with the sa85 they already have the two main fields devlopment that a tar gbb needs done. Would simply require new moulds for the polymer, small tooling refit for the minor metal parts and hey presto. One of the more wanted weapon designs on one of the more wanted platforms.

Just a hunch but not one i would bet against.

Firekitten

We shall see....

A Gbb TAR21 was planned nearly two years ago by TSI... didnt come about. Wonder if WE will see a, enough market, or b, fit it in the interesting space.

I want a gbb p90 personally... that works with c02 bulbs, and an aeg mag.


Gimmeh.