Making a living with career & online poker- Viable?

consultech

Hi All,

I would greatly appreciate advice from the Reg's on the following:

- I am currently in a decent job, bout €35k per year, 9-5:30pm, Mon-Fri
- I have been playing poker on-off about 3 years, and previously slowly ran a $30 stars deposit up to $1500 playing 6-Max NL25 for about 9 months b4 cashing out and going to Thailand last summer
- Back playing 25NL about a month, few hundred quid on party
- Putting a LOT of time into education - 2+2 Forums/bout a dozen books. Just bought Deuces Cracked subscr. and Holdem Manager.
- Consider myself to have a pretty solid (but relatively breakeven) game over few 100k hands, obviously some big leaks, but I'll be Holdem manager'in them out of my game in the coming months.

My plan is to keep working 9-5:30 and play about 20 hours a week outside of reading my arse off with 2+2 posts and Vid's. I plan to hopefully setlle around 200NL in a few months time when my BR gets there. I'd like to be able to earn my salary again playing poker each year for a few years, with a view to moving up and into Poker full-time when Im earnin 3/4 times my current annual salary...

My question is:

Is it viable in the current climate/state of the online poker industry? I'm not too au fait with the Us's situation - But is online poker illegal now over there??? i.e. Traditional Fishiepool gone byebye?

Can some of the reg "pro's" advise me as to how practical my plan is, and what stakes/sites would be the best course for my plan?

Thanks in advance!

Consultech.

pierce hard

gl with it

RoundTower

yes you can definitely make a living with a full-time job and online poker.

just try not to lose too much on the poker.

NickyOD

Considering the stakes you're playing at the moment I'd say you're not even half way to being able to play full time. That's just my own experience of being in the same situtaion.

Online poker is a different animal now to what it was 5 years ago and personally I think only players who have exceptional talent for the game should even consider taking it up. Hard work will get you there, but very slowly only so far.

Better off furthering your other career imho.

thedini

Lads he's not talking about going pro now but maybe in a few years if it goes well.

OP, keep doing what u are doing pokerwise and good luck with it.

consultech

NickyOD wrote: »

Considering the stakes you're playing at the moment I'd say you're not even half way to being able to play full time. That's just my own experience of being in the same situtaion.

Online poker is a different animal now to what it was 5 years ago and personally I think only players who have exceptional talent for the game should even consider taking it up. Hard work will get you there, but very slowly only so far.

Better off furthering your other career imho.

Cheers Nicky...You are the type of reg I was looking to hear from tbh... I used to post a fair bit on another board when u did, I remember u commenting on the table I built b4.

TBH I hear you regarding the complete changing of what online poker is nowadays, but could the golden days return again tho if it's regulated in America etc? I feel like I'm not gonna be taking any massive risks, Im still a good bit up moneywise over my playing career so I have encouragement there, still live at home etc and am on decent money jobwise. The time I'd be putting in to it would be outside that of work, which I can do quite well in 9-5:30 (commission on top of salary).

Just trying to get an overview of whether say €50 or so an hour wud be possible at 200NL in say 12 month's from now, and what would be necessary?

mdwexford

Sounds like your going about it the right way. I wouldnt be comfortable being a "pro" unless i was beating 400nl for a nice winrate and with decent rakeback/bonuses and stuff. Its definitely doable if you put the effort in and have some sort of ability for the game.

ocallagh

totally depends on your outgoings

if u live at home, have some money saved, don't go out much, have few responsibilities, have no bank loan/Credit card then 200NL @ 3 or 4ptBB/100 - 4 tabling 20hrs/week would give you an extra $1k per week which is roughly what you're making at the moment

putting in those 20hrs, and maintaining your desired win rate is not as eays as it sounds though.

Throw in a loan, credit card, holidays, car, kids, mortgage, stress and you'd need to be beating 400NL or maybe even 600NL to make it work.

Ollieboy

As others have already mention you our going the right way about it, but I believe the golden days of poker is over. I also think going pro is only possible for very few people.

The best way to treat poker is as a part-time job and try to make the same money as you would per a hour as working. In the long run, a career is far more important and a far better tool to get through life. Very few pro's handle the balance of poker and life and the variance's.

I had the same thought's a few years ago and felt I could make a living from it, but I could also make a living driving a taxi or setting up a business.

Stick to the job, if you start making lots of money, than come back here and open this thread and tell us. I would believe you will make a bit from poker and maybe equal your wages.

Also, remember the standard of players is improving and the edge good players have as got very narrow. A lot of top pro's predicted this in the last few years.

cooker3

Well sounds like you have the right attitude anyway.
Your best bet is to really just keep doing what your doing and make your goal to become better rather then have a certain amount by x

opr

The player standard getting better at least up as far as levels like 2/4 is crap.

Yes your average fish has changed and evolved and is alot different but i don't believe the volume of them is less or they are any less beatable.

People can evolve, learn, progress and even become ok pokers players. I think these type of players are the new fish. Many of them watch videos and read loads of other players thoughts on the game as a result they know how to play preflop, they have a general outline of lines to take and other such stuff.

Most of them don't think about the game for themselves and alot of them are not capable of thinking about the game for themselves.

Opr

digiman

I am more or less doing the exact same as you are now. I have a good well paying job that I enjoy and am playing poker in my spare time. My hours at work aren't to demanding currently so I have some free time during the day to read/study poker and play some in the evening then. I started off this year with a set amount of my own personal money and started playing 50nl as I thought I would be able to beat this. Turned out I was wrong but trough rakeback and bonuses I was able to move up to 100nl anyway and I did beat this pretty well over a large sample.

Since January I have learned and improved a lot and got to the stage were since May I have been playing at least 100nl and have now played 5k hands at 400nl which has went well so far. My hourly since May is well above what I make in my job but I wouldn't like to have to play 20hrs a week to be honest. I play about 40 hours a month and probably put in around the same reading and reviewing hands.

I think its very possible to build up a decent bankroll if you don't bother withdrawing the money ever. I've withdrawn about $3k so far but some of that was my original investment and also took part of it was to make myself feel better after I dropped 25% of my roll taking a failed shot at 200nl in which I moved back down to 50nl again and started rebuilding my confidence again.

My tips for you would be to:

Start of with $500 and grind 25nl on a site that has a good sign up bonus and as much rakeback as you can possibly get because at the lower levels rakeback will probably double your BB/100 and increase your bankroll a lot.

Take shots earlier than say people who play full time do as you don't need this money, (You have a full time job) but move back down if it goes wrong. You can just afford to take more shots than people who rely on their rolls for income.

Don't withdraw your money ever, this will only hinder your progress and the fact that you have a job means you should not need this money. I mean until you are at least playing 200nl.

Look into getting a coach when you get to 200nl as this is where the games get a lot tougher and are filled with better regulars and sometimes you need that extra help to help you beat the games.

Also set goals in your head or write them down in a blog just so you always have a clear idea of what you are aiming for.

There are lots of other obvious tips that I have left out but I think the above will help you a lot.

Best of luck

latenia

Maybe you should aim for a steady €200-300 a week for a bit of extra pocket money. That's still 10k a year tax free which is the equivalent of about 15k extra salary plus you'll never really have to worry about going bust.

cokedrinker

consultech wrote: »

My plan is to keep working 9-5:30 and play about 20 hours a week outside of reading my arse off with 2+2 posts and Vid's. I'd like to be able to earn my salary again playing poker each year

This is what im hoping to achieve also (posted the exact same on dc forums). Im moving out to Australia next month to begin my career, but i want to keep poker up part time and dedicate 20hrs week getting in close to 30k hands/month. A decent winrate at 2/4 would be a massive boost to the salary and i would be very content there.
I've started to look into PLO and may actually put more of an effort into it over the next year (once i've made it to, and am comfortable at 2/4NL). Poker will always be a part time gig for me... don't think i would go fulltime 'pro' even if i miraculously became a winning 5/10 player.

Hectorjelly

No-one is answering the questions he asked (I would if I could)

Lafortezza

OP, why not concentrate on your career for the next few years? Why must poker become your career?
5 years from now you might have a better job, with better prospects, more money, more satisfaction and be making side money from poker. If you put the work in you might have a rock solid career and enough side money from poker to pay for nice holidays, car insurance, new tv, new PC etc etc.

What age are you by the way?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Good luck with this OP i have been doing this for the last 3/4 years or so and apart from 2007 i have won decent online/live and it has supplemented my salary nicely. It can be difficult at times managing both work/poker/family life but set some goals from what you want to get out of it. I originally wanted to cover holidays/car insurance/expensive gadgets and thankfully i have done this and also spent money on a house extension/rennovations and reinvested it.

In terms of play probably best to look at playing cash tables on Ipoker as it is still far softer than the likes of Stars/Ft. It is also important to set yourself up with a good loyality scheme, GJP offer a good one. If you are looking to make decent enough money you really need to be playing 200nl upwards so this may require to put some $$$ online so you are rolled, i would say $5k/$6k would be a good start for 200nl.

One final note you have set yourself 20 hours a week i would suggest you only play when not tired and have at least 2/3 hours set aside to put in a decent session. And btw only a few % of people can make it full time so continue along the line of day job and poker as additional income/hobby. Good luck with it

mick84

Well said jackyback.

In my opinion whats the point in leaving a well payed job ????? to go sit in front of your pc at home for 8 hours a day , not guaranteeing payment for the hours you put in online.

Poker can be cruel , even if you are the best player in the world.

People have told me that their job is poker and that they have won so much in the casino's , online and in big tournaments. ( everybody who's plays poker in a casino knows one)

But six months later they are not in the casino's , not in the big tournaments because they jumped the gun to early and lost all their money.
And they are asking you for money


This happens all the time. Dont kid yourself.

You said that you will put 20 hours in. Thats a part time job. Try match your wages in a year doing this. That's the challenge you should set your self.

Play like jackyback said play for something like a new tv , computer , car. DONT play for your income.

consultech

Thanks for the thoughts lads, some good discussion...

Lafortezza: I'm 24 years old - was gonna give it a serious bash during college at 21 but didn't.

I understand what the 50% concensus regarding the safe craeer-route is; But I'm in a bit of a wishy washy industry, there will always be 50k a year there for me if I work hard, and potentially loads more, but this is very do-able inside of business hours.

The reason I'm even toying with this idea is because I LOVE poker. - Not: "It's a good laugh playin with the lads with a few cans every week"-kind of I Love poker...

Im talkin: "I was awake till 3am working out 4 odds calculations in my head last night, and I have recently indoctrinated my girlfriend into loving poker so I can play more"-kind of I love poker. I definitely I think I have the drive/level of commitment for the game...


Again: So what stakes do people reckon €40 an hour is do-able on? - With 25-28 hours a week playing and session reviews?

cardshark202

well €40 an hour is well doable if you multitable 1/2 a lot. If you have a lot of time on your hands and you're good enough, you can reach 200nl in a month or two. I don't see any harm in going for it anyway, especially if you're only 24

zuutroy

I'm definitely in the 'play for luxury items' camp. It takes a very specific type of laid back person to have poker as their sole income. I think playing for e40/hr is madness too (though as the lads said if you're young free and single maybe not so much) Even if I was making $200/hr playing poker I'd keep working. It's not because I love work, I do very little, but the routine of getting up and going and doing a bit and talking to non-poker people for a few hours and then looking forward to playing when I get home is much better than obsessing about poker all the time. Very few people have the disposition to live without this balance imo. When I run bad it affects me a bit in real life, though I try hard to quash this but I can only imagine how difficult it'd be if it was my job. I'd be interested to see how much you love poker once this starts to happen. As soon as something becomes a necessity its hard to enjoy no matter what it is.
I made the mistake of thinking to myself "hmmm, I might be able to run up a house deposit from this in 12-18 months" and now I'm already getting annoyed with respect to that goal if my bankroll doesn't oblige my milestones, but its stuck in my head now so I'll try and see it through. After that though I'll only rely on poker to buy stupid **** that I don't really need I hope.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

I think if i was playing full time poker i would start to hate the game, i would not have the character to do this. Even if i luckboxed a 500k win down the line i am happy with the mix of career/business/poker that i have now.

consultech

Once again - Cheers for the thoughts lads...

Im well-aware it's a serious strain playing for a living when it's ur only income, and your opinion on the game changes dramatically - Ive a couple of mates who play online for a living, one of which got me into poker.

I think what will (hopefully) differentiate me is that Ill have a solid (hopefully quite ample) income on the side from my career, and as such will hopefully serve to keep making money from poker a novel thing. This is something that my mates don't have, and is probably what their respective frustrations with poker as a "job" can be attributed to.

Make no bones about it, Im not playing for money currently at all. - However, eventually, because Ill have money coming in on the reg from elsewhere, I would hope that I will be playing to learn for a long time before Im playing to earn. From what I can gauge from personal and 2nd hand-opinion, this seems to be a pretty important concept; Either playing for money, or playing for experience.

All very idealistic but Ive gotta have a goal I suppose. Ill be donkin it up in the 40+5 in the jackpot tonight in a grey hoodie/Jack Daniel's T-Shirt (carnation possibly) if anyone is there with an opinion...

Cheers, Mark.

Macspower

Only getting to this now...

The route your going is the way to go definately.. I got landed in the deep end 18 months ago when I had to close my company due to a bad beat and couldn't get a "real" job while company was closing etcetc..

I managed to make a living out of it for the last 18 months but only a living and not a fortune by any means... rakeback and and bonuses are most important... your view of poker will also change.... the "love" will die rapidly... kinda like it does after getting married it does become a grind that you need strict dicipline for and my struggle was always to build a bankroll while trying to live off it at the same time... nearly impossible at 200nl I think... I have a car/house/wife/family......

So while working/playing you get the chance to build a roll with little risk and see if it's for you... manage your BR and enjoy...

btw I'll prob be in Jackpot as well... big guy with glasses.... say hello

El Stuntman

seriously...stick to the career

califano

and stick to words like viable. Viable is a dominant word which i have been over useing ever since this thread started.

pok3rplaya

I'd just like to say how refreshing it is to have someone level-headed come here and actually ask for this type of advice rather than tell us his plans and then explode at the slightest hint of someone saying he wont be able to do it.

NickyOD

pok3rplaya wrote: »

I'd just like to say how refreshing it is to have someone level-headed come here and actually ask for this type of advice rather than tell us his plans and then explode at the slightest hint of someone saying he wont be able to do it.

+1

lol @ noobs with a masterplan.

Macspower

+2

would like if you kept us updated as well... rather than what were used to... "i'm giving up 50k job to play 25nl kinda post and i'm going to make a million in my first year!" and then never hear or see them again. A breath of fresh air indeed

niborm

Sky Brief Grater wrote: »

One final note you have set yourself 20 hours a week i would suggest you only play when not tired and have at least 2/3 hours set aside to put in a decent session. And btw only a few % of people can make it full time so continue along the line of day job and poker as additional income/hobby. Good luck with it

I really think this is great advice...playing because you feel you must put in the hours is the quickest way to end up with your foot stuck through your monitor, unless you have incredible discipline, which in my experience very few people have. This has cost me more money than I care to remember.

pgodkin

Op, Its good to see i mightn't have been far off, im single and 25 and have a very good job in the transport industry, i do love to play cards and besides work i have a ton of free time so i have my self the same plan, put a couple of hundred online and play cash small stakes and build from there.

i decided to do it after i went through my finances and seen how much it was costing me play for a bit of fun, Live Cash was Killing me at 1-3 euro no limit game in my local club, on top of that put on the buy in for tournies it starts to mount up. So have decide to take the advise both in this thread and alot others and play it straight and with the displine that is needed to mange a bankroll (will let you know how i get on with this).

Thanks to Pocket-twos i have a load of readings to get through, and i have set up spreadsheet that will track the money, i think this is very important as you need to see where your br is coming from and going to! Dont Lie to yourself and dont be afraid to ask for advise or drop levels or even walk away from it for a couple of months, you and i dont have to play because we have other sourse's of income and i think this in the long run will help us handle the downswings

Good Luck with it and welcome to boards, hope to hear from u again