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Interesting statistic on gun crime in UK
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An abusive thread in a closed forum (with no supporting evidence apart from "my mate says...") is your idea of useful debate then?0
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But it matters that the sport of shooting gets associated with gun crime?It doesn't matter if football gets associated with hooliganism.
Ah, it's a numbers game. OK: what harm if the sport of javelin-throwing is shut down? (Nasty sharp spears.) What about archery? Relatively few people involved in that, and those arrows are pretty sharp too.Because so many millions upon millions of kids, teens and adults play it.
How much damage has been done by target shooting?You can add up all the damage done via hooliganism and it probably doesn't even amount for the wages of one top premiership player.
Assuming you mean "are not", neither are target shooting pistols (from what little I know of them).Unlike guns, baseball bats are engineered for killing power.0 -
Having read most (but not all) of the thread, I'm going to jump in with my two cents.
Let's look at this philosophically. Aristotle and others would look at the form of an object. later phenonomologists would look at how we view an object. So let's look at handguns that way.
A gun is something that fires a projectile using an explosive propellant. That ok with everyone?
They're used for assault, defense, hunting and sport anoungst other things.
The purpose of an assault rifle is to kill people. It's not designed for hunting, it's not designed for sport. It's designed to expell bullets in a rapid manner and kill people.
A handgun is not for hunting. Let's face it, it's pretty crap. It wasn't designed for sport either. It may be used for sport, but handguns as a group (ignoring a particular sporting model or two) are designed to kill people. Most people who have one, have one because they anticipate that at some point they will need to kill someone.
Now, one could say that they need it to intimidate someone, therefore they won't need to pull the trigger and kill someone. So if an intruder breaks into your house, they will be scared off. But in that case, they might as well just have a replica.
Considering the very small number who will want a handgun for sporting purposes, we can conclude that most others want one as a form of hoime defense or for more nefarious means.
So let's talk about shotguns. They're big. Usually for hunting. But could be used for home defense too. Plus sides. They're as intimidating as ****. They have a spread of shot so they're easier to target. Plus the size makes it less likely that you'd shoot yourself. Negatives, they hold less ammunition. And they can't be hidden as easilly.
So why would one need a handgun over a shotgun? A handgun can be concealed and carried on your person. And it has more ammo, great if you want to shoot more than one person or over an extended.
Therefore, all handguns, except those licenced to members of sporting clubs (and only sporting models), should be illegal.0 -
St_Crispin wrote: »A handgun is not for hunting. Let's face it, it's pretty crap. It wasn't designed for sport either. It may be used for sport, but handguns as a group (ignoring a particular sporting model or two) are designed to kill people. Most people who have one, have one because they anticipate that at some point they will need to kill someone.
Firstly, handguns are used for hunting very successfully in other countries, and in Germany and other such European countries it's mandatory to carry one for humane dispatch. Personally I think the degree of skill required to use one for successful hunting without wounding is high enough that I agree with their not being used here, but as a sidearm for a hunter looking for a humane dispatch tool, they're perfect.
Your suggestion that most people who have a handgun anticipate using it on people is entirely wrong. It just has absolutely no basis in fact among legal handgun owners in Ireland. We use pistols for sporting purposes only.Considering the very small number who will want a handgun for sporting purposes, we can conclude that most others want one as a form of hoime defense or for more nefarious means.
The number of people who want a handgun for sporting purposes are the only ones who are granted licenses for them.Therefore, all handguns, except those licenced to members of sporting clubs (and only sporting models), should be illegal.
And so they are, with the stipulation that there's a legitimate sporting use for just about every pistol in every calibre in the world, so there's no such thing as a sporting model in many cases, as there are whole competitive disciplines dedicated to just about anything. However, any pistol not being used by members of clubs catering to pistol shooting is indeed already illegal.0 -
Nope. Airguns don't use explosive propellants, and air rifles are used for hunting and are legally classed as firearms in Ireland (and in the rest of Europe when you get above a certain muzzle energy).St_Crispin wrote: »A gun is something that fires a projectile using an explosive propellant. That ok with everyone?
They are not used for assault legally by civilians or law enforcement. Only the military can use them for assault legally. They could be used for assault by a civilian, in the same way that a hammer could be, but if you draft laws based on what a criminal might abuse an object for, you'll have an unworkable legal code and an intolerable society in about three and a half minutes.They're used for assault, defense, hunting and sport anoungst other things.
(1) "Assault rifle" is a technical term with a highly specific meaning. Just so you know.The purpose of an assault rifle
(2) We weren't talking about assault rifles.
(3) There is no reason for any civilian to have an assault rifle. And none do.
Actually, they're successfully used as primary hunting firearms by lots of people and they're mandatory secondary weapons for hunters for a coup de grace in many countries.A handgun is not for hunting.
Nope. Some handguns are designed to kill people (we generally call them sidearms). But there are more sporting pistols than there are sidearms. So handguns as a group can't be thought of as being designed to kill people. Like I said earlier, not all dogs are baby-eating rottweilers.handguns as a group (ignoring a particular sporting model or two) are designed to kill people.
Nope. I have one. I have no such anticipation. And it's illegal to have one for that purpose in Ireland (just as a by-the-way). And you're making a pretty large and rather unpleasant assumption about a very large number of people, in case you don't know...Most people who have one, have one because they anticipate that at some point they will need to kill someone.
No, you can't conclude that. The numbers don't back you up at all outside of the US.Considering the very small number who will want a handgun for sporting purposes, we can conclude that most others want one as a form of hoime defense or for more nefarious means.
Okay, that's the second time someone's expressed that sentiment. Can I point something out here?So let's talk about shotguns. They're big. Usually for hunting. But could be used for home defense too. Plus sides. They're as intimidating as ****. They have a spread of shot so they're easier to target. Plus the size makes it less likely that you'd shoot yourself. Negatives, they hold less ammunition. And they can't be hidden as easilly.
So why would one need a handgun over a shotgun? A handgun can be concealed and carried on your person. And it has more ammo, great if you want to shoot more than one person or over an extended.
Therefore, all handguns, except those licenced to members of sporting clubs (and only sporting models), should be illegal.
You are saying it's okay to kill people with a gun; just not with a certain type of gun.
I suggest your basic premise there may be flawed. And I'll point out that target shooters do not agree with that premise, nor do they want firearms for that purpose.0 -
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(3) There is no reason for any civilian to have an assault rifle. And none do.
I don't know if that is necessarily true in Ireland. After all, in theory, it just requires the appropriate level of Garda signoff as a 'restricted' rifle, no? Of course, that doesn't mean that anyone has ever applied and been accepted.
NTM0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »I don't know if that is necessarily true in Ireland. After all, in theory, it just requires the appropriate level of Garda signoff as a 'restricted' rifle, no? Of course, that doesn't mean that anyone has ever applied and been accepted.
NTM
Well, nothing full-auto is allowed. Semi-auto centrefires are allowed, but they aren't exactly prolific, predictably enough.0 -
Nope. Noone has any. Assault rifles are select-fire and automatic firearms are Category A in the EU, meaning that only Police and Military can have them. Individual member states are permitted to make specific exemptions, but that's not been done in Ireland.Manic Moran wrote: »I don't know if that is necessarily true in Ireland. After all, in theory, it just requires the appropriate level of Garda signoff as a 'restricted' rifle, no? Of course, that doesn't mean that anyone has ever applied and been accepted.0 -
You should take your Shooting is bigger than Football (in Italy) here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055351652
Enjoy.
It would make sense that the home of Beretta and Bernoulli would have a few firearms around. Hunting is a long-standing sport over there. Italian law does allow for the use of firearms in defense of self and property, but to a large extent that was only a recent change so I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of the seven or so million civilian-owned firearms in Italy are kept for sporting purposes. Works out as about one firearm per 8 people of all ages. Nowhere near as many as the US, but enough to raise an eyebrow at. Or, if you prefer to look at the world as families of two parents and two kids, that's one for every two houses. In terms of numbers of people who actually will kick a ball around vs the number of people who will pick up and shoot a firearm, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that shooting is bigger in terms of raw numbers. Note that this does not count frequency: It's a lot easier to kick a ball around, so those who do so will probably do so much more often than those who go hunting a few times a year. Certainly even if the numbers of participants and frequency of participation were equal, football would appear to be the more popular, given that shooting tends to take place indoors in ranges, or out in the back woods where you can't see it.
For the record, the figures for Germany and France are more or less one firearm for every three people, only a third of the figure for the US.
NTM0
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