groundwater vulnerability & response

mickdw

Where can I get information on the above. The new Mayo County Development plan has finally forced a move to the widely used EPA format site characterisation including desk study, T test, P test, etc. Any help?

Supertech

Try GSI Website (Geological Survey of Ireland) www.gsi.ie

mickdw

Thanks, just the job!

No6

mickdw wrote: »

Where can I get information on the above. The new Mayo County Development plan has finally forced a move to the widely used EPA format site characterisation including desk study, T test, P test, etc. Any help?

Mick as far as I am aware they are looking for this to be done by people who have trained to do the EPA test and they will probably now form a panel like other counties. I use someone very good who has always done my Trial holes and is EPA trained if you're interested I'll PM his details to you.

mickdw

No6 wrote: »

Mick as far as I am aware they are looking for this to be done by people who have trained to do the EPA test and they will probably now form a panel like other counties. I use someone very good who has always done my Trial holes and is EPA trained if you're interested I'll PM his details to you.

According to the planners they are not forming a panel in mayo but the plan does say "a qualified person i.e. epa cert"
I myself have a civil engineering degree with diploma and the major part of the degree specialising in all aspects of water and wastewater. It is the foremost qualification in the country in this field one could argue and I will therefore be fighting strongly to complete site classifications myself.

Schooby

I have it on reliable authority that there have been many chartered engineers who have failed the FAS course, much to their surprise

muffler

Donegal co co will have a panel in place from September. I doubt if it can be enforced though.

The only benefit of being on the panel is that the public can have access to it and Im sure that both the EHO's and planners will probably accept assessments without question from people on the approved list.

mickdw

Schooby wrote: »

I have it on reliable authority that there have been many chartered engineers who have failed the FAS course, much to their surprise

I dont doubt this but these would not be Engineers who specialised in wastewater for 4 years. These would be from other disciplines.

Supertech

Donegal co co will have a panel in place from September. I doubt if it can be enforced though.

Don't understand what you mean here muffler ... panels have been introduced in several other areas around the country and are being enforced. Can you expand ?

muffler

Supertech wrote: »

Don't understand what you mean here muffler ... panels have been introduced in several other areas around the country and are being enforced. Can you expand ?

The panel has no legal status insofar as there is nothing in the P & D regs or the local Co. Devp. plan requiring the assessments to be carried out by people/firms on a panel.

An applicant for permission should still be able to have their site assessment carried out by someone who is not on the panel. If the PA refuse this then they are setting a dangerous precedent.

So unless the regs or devp plan is altered I cant see it being enforced. I can only state what the devp. plan is for Donegal and perhaps other PA's have details of a panel incorporated into their devp. plan.

Schooby

mickdw wrote: »

I dont doubt this but these would not be Engineers who specialised in wastewater for 4 years. These would be from other disciplines.

I agree that they would not be engineers with waste water as a speciality but I believe my earlier statment to be correct

Schooby

muffler wrote: »

The panel has no legal status insofar as there is nothing in the P & D regs or the local Co. Devp. plan requiring the assessments to be carried out by people/firms on a panel.

An applicant for permission should still be able to have their site assessment carried out by someone who is not on the panel. If the PA refuse this then they are setting a dangerous precedent.

So unless the regs or devp plan is altered I cant see it being enforced. I can only state what the devp. plan is for Donegal and perhaps other PA's have details of a panel incorporated into their devp. plan.

as you said muffler there is nothing in the P+D regs or act to support this, however where it is a policy or objective in a development plan, for the local authority to grant permission in a case where the site characterisation was carried out by a person other than one from the panel it would consititute a materail contravention.

Article 22 (2) c of the 2006 regs with a slight extrapolation gives an invalidation reason where some details are not submitted by a member of the panel assuming the purpose of the panel is to give the authority confidence in the competance of the individual carrying out the assessment

muffler

Schooby wrote: »

as you said muffler there is nothing in the P+D regs or act to support this, however where it is a policy or objective in a development plan, for the local authority to grant permission in a case where the site characterisation was carried out by a person other than one from the panel it would consititute a materail contravention.

Thats fair enough but I did refer to the devp. plan for Donegal which does not contain this policy.

Schooby wrote: »

Article 22 (2) c of the 2006 regs with a slight extrapolation gives an invalidation reason where some details are not submitted by a member of the panel assuming the purpose of the panel is to give the authority confidence in the competance of the individual carrying out the assessment

That sub article does not make any mention of a panel but merely outlines the data required but not who should provide it.

Schooby

Yes you did refer to Donegal and I didn't!

Article 22 (2)c

where it is proposed to dispose of wastewater from the proposed development other than to a public sewer, information on the on-site treatment system proposed and evidence as to the suitability of the site for the system proposed,

so, evidence of the site being suitable for the systems proposed involves the planning authority having confidence in the details submitted hence the whole point point of forming a panel, a determintion of competence, there is no other reason for it.

therefore if you are not on the panel the information submitted in insufficent evidence of the suitability, therefore invalid as I said slight extrapolation.

the options for someone disagreeing with this interpretation is a judical review. if it were me I'd sooner get someone off the panel to do the test than spend at least 6 figures on a risky judical review.

hasn't been tested in court yet, i doubt it will be.

muffler

Schooby wrote: »

therefore if you are not on the panel the information submitted in insufficent evidence of the suitability, therefore invalid as I said slight extrapolation.

When you introduce conjecture into any debate it opens all doors bar the one with FACT stamped on it.

I would personally prefer to stick to the regulations and then I can argue my point. If people in a planning department decide that they want to misrepresent those regulations then they are unaware of or underestimate the options available to the agents and the public.

I could debate this with you all week but I am just going to refer you back to my previous posts where I referred to Donegal and leave it at that.

Schooby

muffler wrote: »

When you introduce conjecture into any debate it opens all doors bar the one with FACT stamped on it.

I would personally prefer to stick to the regulations and then I can argue my point. If people in a planning department decide that they want to misrepresent those regulations then they are unaware of or underestimate the options available to the agents and the public.

I could debate this with you all week but I am just going to refer you back to my previous posts where I referred to Donegal and leave it at that.

I must confess I am intrigued by the suggestion that I have introduced conjecture to the debate but not as intrigued as I am by your statment 'the options available to the agents and the public' give me more my friend this is a rare gem and there is no way you would let this go if someone else had posted it.

Donegal will be in or around the 2 year review of the CDP, taking account of the SEA requirements, the groundwater directive, the water framework directive and the relavent circular letters from the EPA and DoELGH on the issue. I would be surprised if it did not come up in the course of the review, if not there it will definitly on the agenda in the course of drafting the new plan in 2012.

notwithstanding the above this thread commenced talking about Mayo. Currently the majority of counties are either operating renewed proceedures in this regard or putting them together.

This is a national issue and I feel it deserves debate in this forum as it gives all stakeholders an chance to have their speak.