Russia ''invades'' Georgia

sink

jady88 wrote: »

Georgia a tiny nation long suffering at the hands of its behemoth neighbour just how exactly are they as bad as each other?

Oh I don't know perhaps the oppression and illegal arrests of the political opposition. As well as the use of force to bring dissenters in South Ossetia and Abkhazia into line with events akin to our own bloody sunday happening regularly. The refusal to negotiate with the elected representatives from South Ossetia and Abkhazia to resolve differences and instead demanding that these regions submit to the will of Tiblisi.

What makes them any better than the Russia government. The only difference that I can see is that Georgia has allied with the west and Russia is much bigger so is able to cause more trouble.

Manic Moran

From what I understand of the latest conflict situation in Georgia, Georgia declared a ceasefire, which the Russian backed South Ossetian seperatists broke. Georgia moved to reassert control (legally in my opinion) over it's own territory.

The problem is that in doing so, they broke the Sochi agreement of 1992 which is monitored by and facilitated by the OSCE. Of course, nobody outside the area was interested in sending active peackeeping forces that way, so the Joint Peacekeeping Force turnes out to be a bunch of Georgians, Russians and North Ossetians.

Some people evidently saw this coming. Note the Estonian comment two days before the conflict started which said that the EU needs to take over the peacekeeping role.
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18892

NTM

mike65

The only good news about Russia is that its demographics are so bad, in 50 years it'll be a rusting sickly shell of a country of less than 100 million. It won't be in a postion to do much serious meddling so great will its internal problems be.

Mike.

SeanW

Just for a laugh I decided to check out Russia Today/RIA Novosti's take on the conflict. And I wasn't disappointed, well, almost as much frightened as amused. The attack is, as one can imagine, dominating that site's front page.

In one article: http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28744 you can see the obligatory propoganda shot of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin comforting a young South Osssetian refugee child. But what worried me was in another article http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28759 where the Russians seem to be, at a very minimum, antagonising and spewing propoganda against, if not outright looking to have it out with, the Ukraine.

The only good news about Russia is that its demographics are so bad, in 50 years it'll be a rusting sickly shell of a country of less than 100 million. It won't be in a postion to do much serious meddling so great will its internal problems be.

Mike, I'm not sure that is such good news. I would prefer that Russia could be strong, while at the same time losing this insane stance of Stalinist-Imperialism that they seem hell bent on at the moment.

jonny72

Western Media..

1. Pick a side, an ally, e.g. Israel over Hizbollah, Serbia over Croatia..

2. Report from that point of view


We cannot accept that two sides might be just as bad as each other, nope there always has to be a good guy and a bad guy, its our mentality..

mike65

Russians claim they have sunk a Georgian vessel.

Mike.

jonny72

jonny72 wrote: »

Western Media..

1. Pick a side, an ally, e.g. Israel over Hizbollah, Serbia over Croatia..

2. Report from that point of view


We cannot accept that two sides might be just as bad as each other, nope there always has to be a good guy and a bad guy, its our mentality..

If you truly want to just view one side of this-Tune to the "Russia today" news channel on sky digital.
It's an English language 24hr news channel sort of modeled on sky news and CNN.
It's Putins version of Fox news.
The scrolling headline in big letters is GENOCIDE...

what I find amusing too is that they have British national journalists with perfect oxford English spouting the propaganda..

regedit

sink wrote: »

The escalation has everything to do with the western powers supporting independence for Kosovo. I find it a bit hypocritical of the west to support independence for one and not for the other. Historically both regions have similar history, Kosovo was always a Serbian territory that was settled by Albanians in recent times and South Ossetia was historically always Georgian that was settled by ethnic Russians in recent times. Morally one has just as much right to independence as the other.

The difference is that the geo-politics of the regions are very different. The west has a lot to gain from Georgia mainly energy but also militarily (Georgia is extremely close to Iraq/Iran). Russia has a lot to loose both in energy and politically/militarily. Russia does want to avoid being completely surrounded by NATO members loyal to the west as this will seriously damage it's power and influence over it's closest neighbours. It also does not want more competition in supplying oil and gas to the west as this is it's main source of power.

This war could have been avoided if the west did not push for Kosovo's independence. This has been another example that every bold action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Who told you this? I am sure you did not learn it in any school as most schools do not teach you lies. Provide me with a few quotes that Kosova was "always" part of Serbia. If you want to sound reliable, you should know what you are talking about.

On the other side, i agree that Georgia is in a very good geo-political position. Namely, the region is a crossroad for huge amount of crude oil and the way georgia is positioned, it byppasses Russia and Iraq hence offering some stability to supply of oil.

To me, this does not smell good. I am sure that Georgia did not decide to assail S Osettia without the support of Western Countries (USA, France and UK) so should be interesting to see what happens next.

wasper

Deleted User wrote: »

eh yes he did
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khafji





Its not a plan to "control" the oil but to keep it flowing. Im not beating on America, I use oil too!

And it is linked to Georgia. Russia doesnt give a damn about Georgia only because of the gas pipeline.
In my opinion the Russians are dangerous all you have to do is look to the recent past with the radiation poisoning assasination, the trouble with Estonia and also Ukraine.

The Khafji battle was during the war, Iraqis out of frustration of sitting ducks & being bombarded day & night, surprised even themselves & ventured few miles to a deserted border town & were driven back. It was a very small unit of few tanks. It was hardly an invasion force.

irish_bob

Deleted User wrote: »

If you truly want to just view one side of this-Tune to the "Russia today" news channel on sky digital.
It's an English language 24hr news channel sort of modeled on sky news and CNN.
It's Putins version of Fox news.
The scrolling headline in big letters is GENOCIDE...

what I find amusing too is that they have British national journalists with perfect oxford English spouting the propaganda..

i was condemmend by some pratt earlier for comparring russia today news chanell to fox news , btw, those anchors on russia today with the english accents , they are russian most likey and just happend to learn english in some posh brittish school, i heard another anchor with an american accent

conceited

That war won't spread or last much longer .Georgia only wanted a limited war thats all,nice timing. Seems to me Russia were forced to respond.Anyway it should be over very shortly.

irish_bob

irish_bob wrote: »

i was condemmend by some pratt earlier for comparring russia today news chanell to fox news , btw, those anchors on russia today with the english accents , they are russian most likey and just happend to learn english in some posh brittish school, i heard another anchor with an american accent

It's actually not a bad channel ordinarally.
Much like the Al jazeera English language channel,it's quite fair on many things unless it involves Gasprom or Kosova or anything where a Russian geopolitical voice is to be heard..
It's utterly utterly one sided in this conflict.

conceited

conceited wrote: »

That war won't spread or last much longer .Georgia only wanted a limited war thats all,nice timing. Seems to me Russia were forced to respond.Anyway it should be over very shortly.

Lets hope not, enough people on both sides have been killed for the politicians again on both sides

Russia expanded its attacks on Georgia on Sunday, moving tanks and troops through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advancing toward the city of Gori in central Georgia, in its first direct assault on a Georgian city with ground forces during three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/11/europe/11georgia.php

SeanW

conceited wrote: »

That war won't spread or last much longer .Georgia only wanted a limited war thats all,nice timing. Seems to me Russia were forced to respond.Anyway it should be over very shortly.

Georgia ... wanted a war? And the Ruskie's didn't?

I find that perspective quite strange considering the number of times Russia has played "Pipeline politics" over the past few years and the level of depravity they're prepared to sink to in the process.

Do you seriously think the fact that the BTC (Baku, Tiblisi, Ceyhan) pipeline carries hydrocarbon fuels from the Caspian sea to the West, bypassing Russia, is lost on the folks in the Kremlin? Especially since they tried to bomb it in an air raid?

Conspiracy theorists believe that the Russia-Estonia troubles not so long ago had nothing to do with the movement of a Red Army statue, and more to do with a pipeline that Russia wanted to build in territorial waters claimed by Estonia, and of course the whole Ukrainian mess of the winter of 2005 New Year 2006.

Many also believe that the Russians had been antagonising the Georgians for some time before this. It's a clear case of the proverbial 'Russian Bear' showing it's true form as a bloodsucking Werewolf, and I'm not sure how one might arrive at any different conclusion.

But hey, we're not going to raise a fuss, because we need the gas and oil that comes from the Russian Federation. And the Stalinists in the Kremlin know this.

bk

Given Russia's continuing bombing of Georgia today (Georgia proper, not South Ossetia) despite Russia now completely controlling South Ossetia and Georgia asking for a ceasefire numerous times, it seems obvious that it is Russia who started and wanted this war.

The Russian president, Dimitry Medvedev, today said military operations in South Ossetia were nearing their conclusion, according to the Russian agency Interfax

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/11/georgia.russia8?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

rowlandbrowner

jady88 wrote: »

They are as bad as each other? Georgia a tiny nation long suffering at the hands of its behemoth neighbour just how exactly are they as bad as each other?

please... don’t cloud our heads with western propaganda or pull our heart strings with that “poor little beacon of freedom all on it’s own” crap.
Georgia sent its young men to die in Iraq to kiss up to America, it’s attacked a region that’s been out of its control for 16 year purely on American advice. it's a us/eu puppet, like Israel. I feel deeply for the Georgian people but their goverment brought this on them.

At the same time I do have huge problems with Russian foreign policy. My biggest fear here is that this could potentially escalate into something a lot bigger than this.

rowlandbrowner

bk wrote: »

Given Russia's continuing bombing of Georgia today.

bk wrote: »

it seems obvious that it is Russia who started and wanted this war.

So even if the rest of your post was true, which it’s not. Still, by your logic, if Russia steps up military aggression during a war they did not start, this alters history, and it is then them who started the war. ok....

Bubs101

I think it's a little naive to think that the Russians had nothing to do with the origins of the war, considering how quick they mobilised everything and the decisive nature of the conflict.

I think it's far more interesting to see how exactly the international community responds because if they back off and Russia is allowed to annex some of the new territory, it will certainly encourage future military campaigns

RedPlanet

I think Georgia was overplaying it's hand and basically goaded Russia into a response.
I don't blame Russia too much, though i dislike the cowboy mentality at play here.
However, USA being what it is, and having done the things they have (Iraq, NATO expansion and courting Georgia), i think Georgia is getting it's justice.
It's a proxy war for NATO and the US and they've just got their hands slapped by mother Russia.

mike65

Georgia is getting its justice? Cos it would sooner be freinds with the USA than Russia? So thats the measure from now on is it? Russia certainly thinks it is - with its behaviour towards Estonia, Ukraine and now Georgia.

Russia is a paranoid bully that is only of any value to the west cos of its oil and gas. Roll on, the end of oil and gas.

Mike.

Frankie Lee

Firstly It must be said Russia is run by people who are utterly corrupt and will start a war if is financially beneficial to the oligarchy.
However Georgia has got its just desserts for it's right wing, pro NATO stance.
I do not know all the facts but I am presuming that there is an important gas pipeline going through SO which makes the region a valuable asset.

Slav

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I do not know all the facts

It is better to educate yourself first on the facts. There are no pipelines in SO. Actually, there is nothing there at all. Mountains, a couple of rivers (or rather streams), few villages and a small town (though I think you can write the town off already). Oh, yes, there is a quite important road as well that links North Ossetia with Georgia (the one that Tshinval population is struggling to use now to escape from that hell).

rowlandbrowner

mike65 wrote: »

Georgia is getting its justice? Cos it would sooner be freinds with the USA than Russia?

at least Russia had the good sense to oppose the Iraq war, unlike Georgia who sent invaders to that country. Go plead Georgia's innocence to the people of Iraq.

tonyj

I've heard the Russians are now occupying Gorey!

God help the people of Wexford.

SEPT 23 1989

thank god Georgia is not in NATO and after this episode they should not be let near NATO in the future

the anti-Russian propaganda in the western media is a disgrace

cabinteelytom

Georgia shows the way. March the troops up to the border, wait until the enemy is distracted by something important to them (a football match, or a gymnastics contest), a brief thanks to the USofA for all this really cool gear, you could otherwise never afford, prefix all this by loudly talking about joining the world's most active aggressor alliance to set everyones's nerves jangling ...and..just...have a go!

mike65

Intesting to see how this thread is being used by some as a way of bashing the USA again, you'd think they were the on the ground in tanks...

Mike.

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

thank god Georgia is not in NATO and after this episode they should not be let near NATO in the future

the anti-Russian propaganda in the western media is a disgrace

This is exactly why they wanted to join NATO, to prevent a Russian invasion.

The Russian propaganda is shocking

cabinteelytom

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Georgia shows the way. March the troops up to the border,

What border? by international law it was their own country they were in. Russia is the country who have crossed international boundaries
This is what its about and they probably missed on purpose:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2534767/Georgia-Russia-targets-key-oil-pipeline-with-over-50-missiles.html

Russian jets targeted a key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles in a weekend bombing raid in Georgia that raised fears the conflict will tighten Moscow's stranglehold on Europe's energy supplies.