Russia ''invades'' Georgia

On August 10, however, Novosti Press Agency quoted an unnamed, highly placed source in the General Staff of the Russian navy as saying that the role of the RBSF in the conflict was to merely “provide aid to refugees” and strongly denied that Russian ships were blockading the Georgian coast. “A blockade of the coast would mean that we were at war with Georgia…which we are not,” the source was quoted as saying.

http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373304

yet they have taken the Georgian town of Gori. Not at war, of course not.

Slav

Deleted User wrote: »

What border? by international law

Ever heard of Dogamys Agreements of 1992 and Moscow Agreements of 1994?

mike65

I think we are beyond squabbles about the definition of a disputed border if tanks are in the streets of Gori.

Mike.

Kev_ps3

I support Russia in what it is doing. I would hope it takes over the whole country and replaced that criminal govermant that started this whole thing. And the US saying that Russia is going too far is a joke, they invaded Iraq for no reason than oil.

duridian

I've tried to keep a neutral mind on this as I flick through the news reports, but it worries me that on the Russia Today news channel, the reporter just a few minutes ago, described the "sweet" smell of decomposing human bodies on the streets of Tskhinvali.
It may be a poor choice of words by the reporter, but the same body-strewn streets were shown on France 24 about an hour ago, and the French reporter described them as being the "corpses of fallen Georgian forces, left behind by their retreating comrades". Makes me wonder if the "sweet" comment was a Freudian slip by the RT reporter, and shows a degree of gloating by the Russians.

The_Minister

Have you never smelt the sickly sweet stench of rotting flesh? It's not a nice smell.

Frankie Lee

I can't understand how anyone can pick a side in this, both States are completly corrupt, the only people I feel sorry for are the innocent victims be they mostly Georgians.

Slav

Slav wrote: »

Ever heard of Dogamys Agreements of 1992 and Moscow Agreements of 1994?

Russians making rules for how another country runs its internal affairs?
Its a sovereign state.
Russia is acting the bully just like in those agreements.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I support Russia in what it is doing. I would hope it takes over the whole country and replaced that criminal govermant that started this whole thing. And the US saying that Russia is going too far is a joke, they invaded Iraq for no reason than oil.

How very naive, foget them switching off the gas in 2006?
Hear about the radioactive polonium poisoning in the UK?
hear about the Russian air force buzzing the RAF over Scotland?
hear about the Ukrainian elections where the president was poisoned with a dioxin?
and the Russian air force buzzing the USS Nimitz in the Pacific.
The Russian media is controlled by the Kremlin.
and bring up some good old fashioned US bashing into the debate, I never supported the US invasion of Iraq and the US invasion of Iraq does NOT make it ok for the Russians to screw Georgia over.

The Russians, like the US , have their eyes on energy resources and regional control. Russia wants to increase its territory and its international standing.
Whats so worrying about this is the prospect of them starting another cold war in doing so.

turgon

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

at least Russia had the good sense to oppose the Iraq war, unlike Georgia who sent invaders to that country. Go plead Georgia's innocence to the people of Iraq.

SO let me get this straight, you consider Russia to be a superior country to the US?

Hobbes

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I can't understand how anyone can pick a side in this, both States are completly corrupt, the only people I feel sorry for are the innocent victims be they mostly Georgians.

Sums it up.

Slav

Deleted User wrote: »

Russians making rules for how another country runs its internal affairs?

So I consider you have never heard of the said Agreements. That's OK. What surprises me is that you don't want to educate yourself on the subject (provided this is Politics board).

duridian

The_Minister wrote: »

Have you never smelt the sickly sweet stench of rotting flesh? It's not a nice smell.

No thankfully, but if it in any way resembles the stench of rotting meat from an abattoir then I'm still not sure how the word "sweet" could be descriptive.

The_Minister

duridian wrote: »

No thankfully, but if it in any way resembles the stench of rotting meat from an abattoir then I'm still not sure how the word "sweet" could be descriptive.

When I said flesh, I was refferring to animal flesh. I don't hang out on battlefields.

Thats why flies are attracted to sweets and chocolate etc, because they are used to hunt for the sweet smell of rotting meat. Sweet =! Good.

Sesshoumaru

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I support Russia in what it is doing. I would hope it takes over the whole country and replaced that criminal govermant that started this whole thing. And the US saying that Russia is going too far is a joke, they invaded Iraq for no reason than oil.

The US supports the democratic country of Georgia ergo Georgia is bad? It must be wonderful to see the world in pure black and white like you I'm just glad your opinion seems to be in the minority.

I'm glad in a way Russia has gone as far as they have, now the mask has slipped everyone can see Russia for the aggressive 19th century imperialist power it is.

Bobo78

regedit wrote: »

Who told you this? I am sure you did not learn it in any school as most schools do not teach you lies. Provide me with a few quotes that Kosova was "always" part of Serbia. If you want to sound reliable, you should know what you are talking about.

On the other side, i agree that Georgia is in a very good geo-political position. Namely, the region is a crossroad for huge amount of crude oil and the way georgia is positioned, it byppasses Russia and Iraq hence offering some stability to supply of oil.

To me, this does not smell good. I am sure that Georgia did not decide to assail S Osettia without the support of Western Countries (USA, France and UK) so should be interesting to see what happens next.

For your information Kosovo was a part of Serbia for last few hundred years, before that it was under Turkish empire which ruled the Kosovo for 500 hundred years so Kosovo was never Albanian.
There were mainly Serbs there and Turkish and some bit of Albanians.
Within the last 50 years Albanians from Albania were emerging to Kosovo which was part of Serbia which was in Yugoslavia. In that time president of Yugoslavia was Tito and he was Croatian man, who allowed all these Albanians to emigrate in to Kosovo without any problems and the main reason they migrated to Kosovo was becouse its economic situatuions was much better then in Albania which was and still is very poor and corupted country which is runned by mafia and runs business such as drog traficking, illigal prostituiton, gun traficking, and all kind of illigal illigal stuff that many people in Western countries are not aware.
There is a lot of similarity between the Serbian Kosovo and Georgian South Ossetia and Abhazia for sure.

Dotsie~tmp

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Georgia shows the way. March the troops up to the border, wait until the enemy is distracted by something important to them (a football match, or a gymnastics contest), a brief thanks to the USofA for all this really cool gear, you could otherwise never afford, prefix all this by loudly talking about joining the world's most active aggressor alliance to set everyone's nerves jangling ...and..just...have a go!

I think this highlight the pure comedy of the situation. The US and Israel have had advisers in the country a while now training/equipping them with nifty new weapons (but not too nifty). Maybe encouraged them to try destabilize and attack SO. The Georgians somehow get it into their head that the US will have their back for their military incursions. The bee stings the grumpy bear and wishes it had left it sleeping. They're essentially begging for for a ceasefire now.

By all reports the Georgians are being routed. They have given the Russians who have been quite dormant an excuse to move south and threaten the Baku pipeline. America will find it impossible to take the moral high ground with its activities in Iraq. Russians are already saying things like "regime change" is an American term. Every move here seems so ill conceived. Israels involvement in equipping gives Russia another reason to supply Iran. For the world its all negative and is the first real sign that cold tensions between old/existing/emerging powers are turning hot.

I read that Russia has come to the conclusion that since it could not keep pace in a clash featuring precision weapons they have decided that the use of tactical nuclear weapons be part of all new doctrine and exercises. If the Russians decided to escalate here and in other places what response could there be if they have hardened enough to routinely use small scale nukes. This is the upshot of all this US preemptive war crap. The old norms break down and crazier people decide whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Bobo78

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The US supports the democratic country of Georgia ergo Georgia is bad? It must be wonderful to see the world in pure black and white like you I'm just glad your opinion seems to be in the minority.

I'm glad in a way Russia has gone as far as they have, now the mask has slipped everyone can see Russia for the aggressive 19th century imperialist power it is.

You say that that everyone is going to see how Russia is big and imperialistic and aggressive power because of the war with Georgia, and tell me then where does that puts America with the war in Iraq????????
Is America maybe a an Angel send from God who will bring democracy into every country in the world by invading it and be responsible for death of milions of innocent people just for the sake of American economy?????!!!!

LordSutch

Might be a 'Storm in a Tea Cup, might be over in 'Five Days' it might be a 'Slow Burner' or it might just be a 'Wet Rag' or a 'Damp Squib' > but on the other hand, it might get bloody serious indeed?

Sesshoumaru

Bobo78 wrote: »

You say that that everyone is going to see how Russia is big and imperialistic and aggressive power because of the war with Georgia, and tell me then where does that puts America with the war in Iraq????????
Is America maybe a an Angel send from God who will bring democracy into every country in the world by invading it and be responsible for death of milions of innocent people just for the sake of American economy?????!!!!

We are talking about the current and ongoing Russian invasion of Georgia. Some people on Boards just seem to have "US" laser etched onto their brains. Wake up! Are you that scared of Russia turning off the taps to Europe?

mike65

One consequence of this to-do could be unwillingness by the west to invest in pipeline capacity from the Caspian Sea region, no doubt Russia would not be unhappy at such an eventuality as they take a stranglehold on supply to the west - that includes us by the way. When the gas is turned down in a few winters, the 'friends of Moscow' on this thread should remember its Moscow not Washington that will have made that decision.

Mike.

SeanW

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

please... don’t cloud our heads with western propaganda or pull our heart strings with that “poor little beacon of freedom all on it’s own” crap.
Georgia sent its young men to die in Iraq to kiss up to America, it’s attacked a region that’s been out of its control for 16 year purely on American advice. it's a us/eu puppet, like Israel. I feel deeply for the Georgian people but their goverment brought this on them.

RedPlanet wrote: »

However, USA being what it is, and having done the things they have (Iraq, NATO expansion and courting Georgia), i think Georgia is getting it's justice.
It's a proxy war for NATO and the US and they've just got their hands slapped by mother Russia.

Frankie Lee wrote: »

However Georgia has got its just desserts for it's right wing, pro NATO stance.

Holy crap. So for being friendly with NATO, and having a pro-Western attitude, not wanting to be within the Kremlin's sphere of influence, they're just "getting what they deserve." I rather imagine you three are the kind to tell a rape victim "your dress was too short ..."

mike65 wrote: »

Georgia is getting its justice? Cos it would sooner be freinds with the USA than Russia? So thats the measure from now on is it? Russia certainly thinks it is - with its behaviour towards Estonia, Ukraine and now Georgia.

QFT!

Slightly OT, but this is one of the many reasons I support the use of nuclear electricity in Ireland. Ireland has become dramatically more dependent on Natural Gas fired electricity in the last decade or so, and the Kinsale and North Sea fields are running out of hydrocarbons, the offshore Corrib field will, when and if online, only be a drop in the bucket.

Going forward, Ireland's electricity supply will be almost completely dependent on a 2000 mile long pipeline from the Russian Federation and the Caucases, also controlled by the Russians by the looks of it. That likely means that some corrupt ex-KGB psychopath in the Kremlin will be able turn our lights off with the flick of a tap. Or that they will use this power to dictate European policy in some way.

This is not a situation I find appealing, and I think if we are to avoid economic and political suicide, we need to take corrective action.

Kama

Even without Russian malevolence, we are at the end of a very long queue for gas...Agree fully with SeanW on that, if perhaps not the solution.

gurramok

The pro-Russian voices forget why that pipeline was built through Georgia in the first place.
It was to avoid dependence on Russia for supplies of gas as the tap to Europe was switched off in '06 by the Russians because of volatility of their neighbours like Ukraine, Belarus etc.
So if the Russians unjustifiably take Georgia and the pipeline, you are at the mercy of Russian prices for your gas next winter.

RedPlanet

Ireland's dependence is hardly Russia's fault.

rowlandbrowner

turgon wrote: »

SO let me get this straight, you consider Russia to be a superior country to the US?

....superior? I never suggested any country was "superior". How exactly do you define one countries superiority over another?

Fratton Fred

I can't help thinking that there is oil involved in this.

the Russian government has gotten involved in the joint venture, TNK-BP. There was a battle over the company between BP and their partners, several Russian billionaires and during this struggle. miraculously, several BP people, including the Chief Executive, had their Visas revoked by the Russian government.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/07/27/do2705.xml

Georgia were pretty stupid to poke the bear and if it wasn't for the tragic loss of life, it would be pretty amusing how they have got their nose bloodied. But i have no doubt this is an excuse by the Russians to take control of the region and the rich pickings that are the caspian sea oil fields.

I am pretty sure the BTC pipeline is safe though, they will need that to sell their oil. What happens to BPs 30% stake though is another matter.

StuckHere

Hey everyone,

I'm a regular poster here, but I can't post through my account now, cause I'm actually in Tbilisi, Georgia.... :rolleyes:

The situation now, in the capital is normal, but yesterday, the city was full of panic(people running around like crazy, packing stuff in,... etc) when it was heard that Russians are coming in and are situated in the city called "Qutaisi" which is quite close to the capital, I got really frightened from all this and nearly crapped my pants.

There is a total dis-information here, free TV stations are shut off, the Russian TV is shut off, internet is being filtered, I have to use a proxy to access the Russian sites, there are only a couple of government channels and the footage is edited, it was reported that 11 jets were shot down, then it suddenly became 4, then 40 tanks were destroyed, and then it was found out that Georgian army actually abandoned the tanks and ran.

Everybody wants the twat that is in charge to get lost, from what I heard, no one resisted and fought back the Russian army, as it entered the towns.

From what I can gather, even the citizens themselves(myself included), hate what Georgia did, starting shooting "GRAD" in the middle of the night at a population of Ossetia, moving tanks it and running over kids and slitting women's throats, at the Olympics too, I can't fault Russia TBH.

Yesterday, the soldiers RAN, actually ran from the city called Gory, they ran faster and than the civilians from that place, the moral is down.

The army is absolutely unorganized, I know couple of guys here, they(the army) first took them as a reserve when they arrived to the base, they were abandoned, without food or anything, they had to hide in schools and theaters and they said they were lucky they actually had some money to buy food and the local population was helping them out too, finally they dropped weapons and came back...

My plane should've left on 10th of August, the flight of course got canceled because Czech airlines got scared and didn't land at all, it's unclear as to when is the next flight or anything at all, there is no Irish embassy here, went to the English embassy, told me it's not their problem , Germans, Polaks, almost all of them evacuated already, many people who are left are fleeing to Yerevan, Armenia to catch a flight there, but there is no warranty that it will land there either, I might go there too and hope the plane lands and I get out.

sink

Jaysus, wouldn't like to be in your situation. Probably a a moot point but if Lisbon had passed the British embassy would now be obliged to help you out. Getting out of the country as fast as possible sounds like a good idea. Turkey would probably be best but don't know if you could make it there.

Sesshoumaru

http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/special-extra-%E2%80%94-editorial-the-facts-on-georgia/

A timeline of events showing how Russia orchestrated this whole affair to destroy Georgia.

gandalf

Stuckhere if you're a regular poster whats your normal nick then?