Russia ''invades'' Georgia

sink

jmayo wrote: »

Like SeanW I find it hard to believe you have forgotten all your passwords all of a sudden.

Why would he have reason to lie and if he is lying why would he be so bold as to claim to be another boardsie. There is an easy way to find out if he is telling the truth, PM CyberGhost and he should PM you back in a few day's when he gets home.

sink

regedit wrote: »

That's the biggest bunch of bull I've heard in a long time.
I myself am Kosovar (Albanian) and I know the history. My parents are from there and the grandparents. I asked extensively about people coming over from Albania. Guess what, aside from the Serb propaganda and people who blindly trust it, nobody else had heard off!

Now I'm not a historian but afaik Kosovo was never an independent state. It's been a constituent part of the Roman, Byzantine, Bulgarian, Serbian, and Ottoman empires and was controlled by various tribes in between but never had it's own self ruling government. If I'm wrong and you can point to some part of history before 2008 when it had a recognised sovereign government I'll be happy to accept.

Kama

I suspect a FSB plot: CyberGhost was kidnapped in a honeypot sting, in the Library, with the Lead Piping, in a misinformation campaign against boards.ie! Stuck is likely a agent cunningly disguised as someone who forgot their passwords; the very crudity of the plan reveals the sophistication of Russian intelligence, and the importance of the Politics board for world opinion-formation!

Can't trust the Russian Bear!

meathstevie

I thought there couldn't be a need for them anymore but where are the likes of Maggie Thatcher ( I never thought I could find anything positive to say about her either ) and Ronald Reagan to tell the Russians what to do and call their bluff.

Folks in here should never forget one thing, and believe me most continental Europeans know it all to damned well, the only thing that has stopped Russian totalitarian imperialism since 1945 is NATO. Stalin, Chroetsjev and Brejznev knew all too well that they could only go so far or they were going to have to deal with the wrath of France, Germany, the UK and US and let's not forget all the smaller member states with small but often highly skilled armed forces.

The prime example was the Cuban Missile Crisis when the US reacted diplomatically and military and forced the situation in the UN with the full backing of it's NATO and Pacific allies. I wouldn't for one moment doubt that the Brits, the Germans, the French and the rest of free Europe would have joined the US in action if that situation escalated. The Russians realised it as well, otherwise they would have never turned their ships around.

The supply of Berlin by air when the Soviets sealed of West-Berlin during the Kennedy administration is another fine example of facing down the sort of muscle flexing that's going on in Russia's corner at the moment.

It's that sort of clearcut stubborn belief in the value of your political system and freedoms accompanied by a willingness to do battle for it's existance that's needed now. Ignoring, palavering and appeasement don't work. You only need to look at the carry on from a certain one testicled deranged Austrian corporal in the mid-twentieth century to see what it can lead to.
Granted, the US, the UK and a host of other European countries certainly aren't moral beacons of splendour and justice either but compared to old style Soviet brutality as is been exercised in Georgia now I know what to choose. It's South Ossetia and Abhazia today. Tomorrow it's the Ukraine and Kaliningrad and before you know the Russian army and the puppetmasters in Moskou are standing at the borders of the EU again. Can you half imagine what sort of thoughts are going through the minds of a couple of million people in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia now ? There's a minority with Russian passports knocking around over there as well you know.

It's all very nice being neutral etc and reaping the rewards of western civilisation while someone else puts in the time, money and sacrifices to guarantee it's continued existance. Sometimes countries need to stand up and be counted. These events in the EU's backgarden taking place and on the doorstep of one of NATO's biggest members this side of the Atlantic makes this one of these times. The West can't be seen to let one of it's fledgeling allies be trampled under an invasion from a totalitarian giant and expect to have any credibility after. Under international law Georgia has a right to self determination and territorial integrity and self defence. These rights are being violated by Russia now. This has to be stopped and preferably through diplomacy and eventually backed up with economical measures. What comes after those options being potentially fruitless is a scenario you don't want in your worst nightmares.

thegloriousend

I have spent alot of time in georgia and own property in Gudauri. Unfortunately this is Georgia's own doing. South ossetia and abkahzia are 'in' Georgia and appear as part of Georgia on the map. Georgian troops have never been allowed in these 'break away' areas and in fact peacekeepers occupy the regions as part of a deal that was agreed with the former Georgian president many years ago. These 'peacekeepers' are in fact russian however, and the areas are slowly being russified with many people now holding russian passports in the area. What Gerogia did was move troops back into these areas without any sort of permission. They made a total miscalculation thinking putin was no longer president. By western standards Russia's retaliation was harsh, but in fact they were entitled to do what they did. Again, this was simply a major miscalculation by Georgia hoping to regain control in an area which they (probably rightfully) consider Georgia. They're going to lose out big time now..

Slav

Military operation is over, that is a really good news. Hopefully no more killed or wounded.

Now the real war is beginning. My forecast: being not able to set up a pro-Russian government in Georgia (for a good number of obvious reasons) Russians will take Georgia out from the US and will be happy to hand it over to EU. Monsieur Sarkozy is busy already.

Also being the winner in the war Russians will push for Abkhazia and S.Osetia independence very swiftly (especially if they manage to compile a proper book of evidence in Tskhinval and nearby Ossetian villages; looks like they are very busy there as well). So we might see 2 new countries in the world map.

What is really interesting is what would be US respond. They (should I say Republicans?) won't just give up I guess.

Slav

I agree with regedit. The point is that Albanians live in that region for centuries though they might not be the ethnic majority all the time. Saying that they moved to Kosovo in Tito's time is incorrect to put it mildly.

On the other hand I can hardly see this as Serbian propaganda. Even in their official government site for Kosovo and Metohia there used to be a table with ethnic population dynamics for the past centuries. It does recognise the presence of Albanians and the fact that Kosovars are native to that land (as well as Serbs)

Slav

meathstevie wrote: »

Folks in here should never forget one thing, and believe me most continental Europeans know it all to damned well, the only thing that has stopped Russian totalitarian imperialism since 1945 is NATO.

I would disagree. What IMO really stopped the Soviet Empire expansion was (surprise! surprise!) Josef Stalin and his victory over Trotsky, Tukhachevsky and Co. in 1930ties. Last hope for the expansion was ruined early in the morning on the 22nd of June, 1941. After that it was a struggle to survive, no more (that includes Caribbean Crisis, Afghanistan and all other major Cold War events). The Soviet system was programmed to collapse sooner or later.


Speaking of NATO, it did not play that important role in the Cold War. It was USA vs USSR only. There were just two powers. NATO and Warsaw Pack were just add-ons in the game they played.

Under international law Georgia has a right to self determination and territorial integrity and self defence.

Once again, familiarise yourself with the history of Abkhazia and Alania, Abkhazian and Ossetians wars of the 1990ties (and their results) and Dogomys Agreements and Moscow Agreements. It's not black and white unfortunately.

Game Set and Match to the Russians

They have exposed NATO weakness
Sent a warning to other nations around the Russian Sphere of influence
Have made US and other calls for them to stop look so so redundant

This little action has made a big change to global affairs.

Lets hope it opens eyes in the West as to the importance of energy.
Everyone of us uses oil/gas. Its paid for in blood not just dollars.

meathstevie

Slav wrote: »

I would disagree. What IMO really stopped the Soviet Empire expansion was (surprise! surprise!) Josef Stalin and his victory over Trotsky, Tukhachevsky and Co. in 1930ties. Last hope for the expansion was ruined early in the morning on the 22nd of June, 1941. After that it was a struggle to survive, no more (that includes Caribbean Crisis, Afghanistan and all other major Cold War events). The Soviet system was programmed to collapse sooner or later.


Speaking of NATO, it did not play that important role in the Cold War. It was USA vs USSR only. There were just two powers. NATO and Warsaw Pack were just add-ons in the game they played.


Once again, familiarise yourself with the history of Abkhazia and Alania, Abkhazian and Ossetians wars of the 1990ties (and their results) and Dogomys Agreements and Moscow Agreements. It's not black and white unfortunately.

If there was no Soviet imperialism then why did the Soviet Union put a puppet regime in the saddle in Afghanistan ? Why did the Soviet Union invade Czechoslovakia in the sixties and Hungaria in the fifties when they expressed a right to political self determination ? Why was the Polish defence minister during communist rule a Soviet general nearly all the time ?

I'd hardly call this a battle for survival. Before WWII Stalin was mad busy being best buddies with the dodgy corporal and they done a deal on Poland and Finland. No imperialism and empire building ? The only saving grace the West had in those days was :

1) Stalin and especially Beria ( a predecessor of Mr Poetin by the way ) exterminated anything that smelled like intelligent human beings in the Communist Party and the Red Army only to barely recover from their capital stupidity when they had their backs against the wall and had to put a couple of bright young officers in charge of the Stalingrad front because the apparatsjiks could find no other inspiration than continue the carnage by blindly throwing untrained and practically unarmed conscripts at the Nazi's. You're right in saying that Stalin done massive damage to the USSR's potential but still 45 years of Cold War followed.

2) The Nazi's and the Soviets just about bled eachother to death.

3) Mao's victory in China undermined the USSR's position as sole guardian of
communism in practice

Of course the Americans were the Wests financial and technological engineroom during the Cold War but at no stage should the Western European efforts of keeping troop numbers on extremely high levels be underestimated. Neither can the French and Uk nuclear capability be discarded as irrelevant. If it wasn't for NATO you'd have the same mess as at the start of WWII with the allied armies using different caliber weaponry, having incompatible comms systems, no task specialisation etc etc,... .

In the end the longevity and the cost of the arms race done in the USSR. The nail in the coffin was the refusal of Micheal Gorbachov to be the typical USSR leader and send the tanks into the Baltic and Eastern Germany. Of course financial constraints will have played a role as well.

Of course Mr Poetin has to be given credit for cleaning up the Jeltsin mess and knocking Russia back into some sort of shape but the moment the oil and gas dollars were rerouted and a couple of competing oligarchs were removed from the board it started to look very quickly like someone was trying to reassert the Soviet realm very quickly internally as well as in Russia's foreign policy. And using the ethnic Russian card will work just about anywhere in the former USSR where an ethnic policy called russification was in vogue for a good while. Nothing special either, the Brits done it in their empire, so did the Romans, the Nazi lebensraum bs was exactly the same. You replace the unruly locals with more reliable "stock" from the heart of the empire. When you want to rebuild the empire the ethnic factor comes in extremely handy indeed. The dodgy corporal done the same in the late 1930's with the anexation of Austria and part of Czechoslovakia. Sure he was only looking after ethnic Germans. In fairness to Poetin there wouldn't be as strong a racially inspired aspect to his regime but it still is a naked totalitarian power and territory grabbing set up in my books.

Like Georgia, Moldova proposes broad autonomy for its rebel region, but Transdniestria's leaders say they will settle for nothing less than independence.

The region's voters have overwhelmingly backed independence in a referendum, as well as the idea of joining Russia one day.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSLC67707320080812?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

sink

Transdniester is another brewing conflict however Moldova is not as westward leaning nor as proggressive as Georgia so there is no threat of loosing influence to NATO and the EU to upset Russia.

the_syco

To quote someone from another forum

SUNLINER81 wrote:

Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia all over again, welcome to 1938, just change the name from Hitler and Sudetenland to Putin and South Ossentia and Czechoslovakia to Georgia...

sink

sink wrote: »

Transdniester is another brewing conflict however Moldova is not as westward leaning nor as proggressive as Georgia so there is no threat of loosing influence to NATO and the EU to upset Russia.

Public opinion in Georgia and Moldova is very strongly in favour of joining the European Union according to surveys conducted in the CIS countries

http://www.euractiv.com/en/opinion/citizens-moldova-georgia-want-join-eu/article-139606

Russia is wary that Moldova could join NATO and has said a guarantee the tiny state will not join the alliance is a pre-condition for Moscow, a major player in the region, backing a peace deal with Transdniestria.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL11668004
Russian bullying? ^^^
essentially no peace deal unless we have our way.

Clearly bullying.

Russian interference?

1989 Census
Georgians 239,872
Abkhaz 93,267
2003 Census
Georgians 45,953
Abkhaz 94,606

TO HELL OR TO CONNAUGHT

gurramok

Georgian villages burned and looted as Russian tanks advance
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia6?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558399.stm

Russians break ceasfire with looting, burning and killing going on :mad:

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

Georgian villages burned and looted as Russian tanks advance
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia6?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558399.stm

Russians break ceasfire with looting, burning and killing going on :mad:

O dear.....

Why aren't we out on the streets about this?

Wheres Richard Boyd Barret??

ejmaztec

The Russians are obviously searching for a new Georgian president, one who fits nicely under Putin's thumb.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Why aren't we out on the streets about this?

Wheres Richard Boyd Barret??

BORING, its only fun when its the US

SeanW

Deleted User wrote: »

BORING, its only fun when its the US

QFT!

McArmalite

Deleted User wrote: »

Why aren't we out on the streets about this?

Wheres Richard Boyd Barret??

Yes indeed, where are the tree hugging, scandal wearing, red flag waving 'left' now ?? I was listening to a discussion on the radio and someone said that one left wing group won't condemn Serbia during their onslaught on Bosnia as NATO had bombed Serbia :rolleyes:

The whole onslaught on Georgia is nothing short of imperialism, so much the war for the freedom of small nations, never again, respect for small nations etc, etc.

lostexpectation

Deleted User wrote: »

Why aren't we out on the streets about this?

Wheres Richard Boyd Barret??

we're not directly involved in this war as opposed to us troops flying through shannon etc, and anyway the war is supposed to be over

Sesshoumaru

lostexpectation wrote: »

we're not directly involved in this war as opposed to us troops flying through shannon etc, and anyway the war is supposed to be over

Looting and burning is just the aftermath of war afterall. Not forgetting that Georgia had this coming!

johngalway

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Looting and burning is just the aftermath of war afterall. Not forgetting that Georgia had this coming!

Quite true. Any small country wishing to make it's own way in the world deserves to get the living **** bombed out of it by it's nearest massive neighbour :rolleyes:

The_Minister

johngalway wrote: »

Quite true. Any small country wishing to make it's own way in the world deserves to get the living **** bombed out of it by it's nearest massive neighbour :rolleyes:

Read up on the subject before posting

kthnxby

Flamed Diving

Great letter in the toimes yesterday:

Madam, - In 2003, 100,000 people in Ireland, and many millions more around the world, marched in protest at what they saw as the violation by the United States of the sovereignty of an independent country.
No matter that the leader of this particular nation was a sociopathic dictator, a man who believed that even the most depraved of acts were justified if they served his purpose - all of this paled in comparison with the wrong of America's unilateral invasion (it being convenient to forget about the participation of Spain, Australia, the UK, Poland).
The flames of indignation in this country were fanned by the various anti-war organisations, and a number of their spokespersons become household names for a time. Even after the initial furore had died down, anti-war camps in Shannon and the actions of dedicated individuals kept the issue in the public eye.
Given that such organisations have proven themselves to be so commendably anti-war, I look forward to their immediate and vociferous condemnation of the Russian invasion of Georgia.
I anticipate, furthermore, that Irish people will gather in support of Georgia's independence, as they did for that of Iraq. I look forward to participating in the mass marches that the anti-war organisations will surely organise to protest at Russia's truculence. I look forward to hearing anti-war protesters on the airwaves, denouncing the Kremlin's belligerence towards Tblisi.
I have no doubt that all of the above will occur, and that Russia's actions will be roundly condemned by the Irish people, not merely through words, but through mass protests akin to those witnessed against America's invasion in 2003.
Anything else would surely smack of hypocrisy and moral relativism. - Yours, etc,
EMMET DUNPHY,
Loughboy,
Kilkenny.

spank_inferno

I'd like to make a point regardint the response of the EU to this conflict.

Hypotheticaly if the Lisbon treaty is ratified and the EU had a single foreign minister, would it have made a difference regarding a conflict like this one?

Paraphrasing an article in the Telegraph; the EU has shown itself to be little more than a trading cartel in its response to the Russian-Georgian war.

The EU is brokering a ceasefire arrangement and Sarkozy has visited the area. However the EU cant compel russia to accept anything....

I liked the single foreign policy aspect of the Lisbon treaty personally.
A conflict like this brings into focus the role of the EU (as we as Nato of course)

johngalway

The_Minister wrote: »

Read up on the subject before posting

kthnxby

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

oscarBravo

Perhaps people without something of substance to contribute should refrain from contributing at all.