Russia ''invades'' Georgia

johngalway

This is a public forum. Under it's own rules people are entitled to an opinion. I can disagree with other peoples opinions as I see fit as long as I stay within the rules of the forum.

If you don't like what I have to say, you have the right not to read it.

oscarBravo

The rules of the forum say not to argue with the moderators in-thread. Back on topic.

Ronan|Raven

The USA are sending personnel to the area now in order to assist the civillians caught up in the conflict. http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhqlmhojkfql/

gurramok

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

The USA are sending personnel to the area now in order to assist the civillians caught up in the conflict. http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhqlmhojkfql/

Which is totally legitimate as they have not been refused by the legal government of Georgia unlike the Russian invaders.

marco murphy

gurramok wrote: »

Which is totally legitimate as they have not been refused by the legal government of Georgia unlike the Russian invaders.

So in future if Georgia kills Russian troops it has to invite them into Georgia to retaliate? Lol.

Beelzebub

Deleted User wrote: »

Russian interference?

1989 Census
Georgians 239,872
Abkhaz 93,267
2003 Census
Georgians 45,953
Abkhaz 94,606

TO HELL OR TO CONNAUGHT

These figures are in dispute.
To quote from the same source:

"Georgian authorities did not acknowledge the results of this census and consider it illegitimate. Several international sources also consider these figures unrealistically high. The International Crisis Group (2006) estimates Abkhazia's total population to be between 157,000 and 190,000 (or between 180,000 and 220,000 as estimated by UNDP in 1998),[49] while Encyclopædia Britannica puts it at 177,000 (2006 est.).[50] The State Department of Statistics of Georgia estimated, in 2005, Abkhazia's population to be approximately 178,000.[51] About 2,000 people (predominantly Svans, a subethnic group of the Georgian people) live in Georgia-controlled Upper Abkhazia."

gurramok

Poblachtach wrote: »

So in future if Georgia kills Russian troops it has to invite them into Georgia to retaliate? Lol.

They have a right to kill or capture those troops because after all they are defending their country.

johngalway

Russian troops still in Georgia, filmed and on air on the RTE news. Moving about and creating "buffer zones". Some ceasefire. Still no protestors on the news.

marco murphy

johngalway wrote: »

Russian troops still in Georgia, filmed and on air on the RTE news. Moving about and creating "buffer zones". Some ceasefire. Still no protestors on the news.

Buffer zones needed.

johngalway

Poblachtach wrote: »

Buffer zones needed.

Yes but to be created by a neutral party surely?

Bubs101

I don't see why Russia should settle for that. They have won and as such should be allowed to name their terms

wes

Bubs101 wrote: »

I don't see why Russia should settle for that. They have won and as such should be allowed to name their terms

While I certainly think Russia should go back to South Ossetia and Abkhazia at a minimum.
I really don't think they will, as they simple have no reason too. So in that regard, your right that they can name there terms.

The West treated them like crap, when Russia was down and now that the West is in no position to do anything to Russia. All the words the US are using mean nothing, as they US can't back it up. The EU won't do anything as we need the energy from Russia and quite frankly the fate of a small central asian republic sadly means nothing to our leaders.

Simply put, Russia won this and have made it clear to the West, there not be messed with anymore.

Bubs101

wes wrote: »

Simply put, Russia won this and have made it clear to the West, there not be messed with anymore.

I think the biggest message that will come from this is to the former U.S.S.R. countries which is simply, don't ever elect a U.S. friendly government again

magick

gurramok wrote: »

They have a right to kill or capture those troops because after all they are defending their country.

hmmm you do realise it was Georgia that started this?

gurramok

magick wrote: »

hmmm you do realise it was Georgia that started this?

No the didn't, SO's did. http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/special-extra-%E2%80%94-editorial-the-facts-on-georgia/

Russia's presence in Georgia is illegal by law and yes Georgia have a right to defend their soverign nation.

gurramok

OgreSwamp wrote: »

At the moment more then 2K ossetian civilians were killed by georgian troops. Fell the difference. 50 against 2000. It's bloody genocide!

Not now, news today is that has been exxagerated.

See here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia1

44 dead in S.O., not 2000.

Human Rights Watch backs this up.

guardian wrote:

Deliberate attempts by the Russian government to exaggerate the number of people killed in the South Ossetia conflict are provoking revenge attacks on Georgian villagers in the republic, a human rights group claimed yesterday.

Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch, who is leading a team investigating the damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead were "suspicious".

"Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics." she said. "On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated."

Neistat said that HRW investigators had on Tuesday and Wednesday recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

"The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the casualties," she said. "That is then used to justify retribution."

Neistat said doctors at Tskhinvali hospital gave figures that 273 wounded had been treated there and 44 dead had been brought to the city morgue. "By day five of a conflict one expects that there is some kind of list of the dead and injured. But here there is no information. Nothing."

mike65

How ironic that Chechneyan bandits are helping themselves as they loot Georgians homes and businesses under "cover" of Russian military action.

Mike.

sink

mike65 wrote: »

How ironic that Chechneyan bandits are helping themselves as they loot Georgians homes and businesses under "cover" of Russian military action.

Mike.

To add to the irony Georgian forces joined up with the Ruskies to capture, detain and return Chechneyan rebels who fled across the border. To repay their service the Russians now let them loot and burn Georgia.

nhughes100

It's allright, Sarkozy has amazingly negotiated a ceasefire despite the EU president being crippled by the Nice treaty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7559222.stm

gurramok

Here's more from Human Rights Watch, even Al-Jazeera report whats happening

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/20088146204217176.html

wrote:

Gori was battered by Russian bombing before the ceasefire, with Russian officials saying it was targeting a military base near the city.

Witnesses said that South Ossetian fighters, along with with some Russian army personnel, had gone house-to-house in villages near Gori torching homes and looting buildings.

Human Rights Watch said its researchers in South Ossetia had "witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians".

ejmaztec

It's deeply ironic that millions of Russians died fighting a no-holds barred fascist dictator, only so that their descendants could have one running the country.

From a recent Jonathan Dimbleby BBC sponsored trek across Russia, a conclusion was reached that the Russians never experienced democracy, so are more used to living in a totalitarian state. They just get on with their mediocre lives or get banged up on trumped up charges if they rock the boat.

Whatever political hue controls Russia, the hierarchy doesn't give a hoot what the West thinks and carries on regardless - rhetoric means as much as democracy to them. They can't be trusted in any area - just see how they managed to remove British Petroleum! Perhaps Putin wants to control the world's entire energy supply.

The former Soviet-Pact countries seemed in a hell of a rush to join Nato and the EU after the wall came down, probably because they knew more than anyone what the Russians were capable of.

I can see the Russians bringing the proposed US anti-missile system into any talks about Georgia - just for the hell of it, with the hope of getting it watered down, or removed entirely.

As my late uncle used to say "they're a shower of feckin' gangsters!"

ejmaztec

ejmaztec wrote: »

Perhaps Putin wants to control the world's entire energy supply.

now that Russia will have control of almost all European gas supplies
....
what if they up their support of Iran, shut off the gas, close the straits of Hormuz (40% of the WORLDS oil passes through it daily!!)

Be great for the world economy. And nobody can challenge a nation with nuclear weapons.

Interesting times.

RDM_83

"It's deeply ironic that millions of Russians died fighting a no-holds barred fascist dictator, only so that their descendants could have one running the country."

http://eldib.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/us-democracy-applied-at-full-in-georgia-riot-police-tear-gas-water-cannons-tv-station-closed/

The Georgian leader isn't quiet so nice either, maybe what will happen is that voters in Eastern Europe will stop electing nationilistic hotheads.

ps I'm curious on what all the pro-georgia posters views were on Kosovo, I say self determination for all

ejmaztec

RDM_83 wrote: »

"It's deeply ironic that millions of Russians died fighting a no-holds barred fascist dictator, only so that their descendants could have one running the country."

http://eldib.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/us-democracy-applied-at-full-in-georgia-riot-police-tear-gas-water-cannons-tv-station-closed/

The Georgian leader isn't quiet so nice either, maybe what will happen is that voters in Eastern Europe will stop electing nationilistic hotheads.

ps I'm curious on what all the pro-georgia posters views were on Kosovo, I say self determination for all

Is there such a beast as a nice politician? On a hypothetical nice-scale of 1 to 10, I'd put the Georgian president on 5 and Putin on 1.

Eastern european politicians are, on the whole, more interested in raising the standard of living of their citizens than in mouthing off to Russia. All that the Russians gave to those countries were fifty years of misery, economic destruction and an abundant supply of obnoxious looking "commie-block" buildings.

In the Czech Republic last week, on the one hand they were backing the Georgian president, and on the other, they were reminding themselves that it had been almost 40 years since the Soviets rolled into Prague to teach them the error of their ways.

Putin has been stirring up Russian ultra-nationalism in "Mother Russia" since he took control, at the same time ignoring the plight of millions of impoverished Russians who don't even have the basic amenities of a modern civilisation - very much like the Russia of a century ago. Even the last tsar had a more humane outlook.

As far as Kosovo is concerned, albeit it off-topic, Serbia got a raw deal, but I can see that two irreconcilable mad dogs had to be separated in the end.

Sesshoumaru

gurramok wrote: »

Not now, news today is that has been exxagerated.

See here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia1

44 dead in S.O., not 2000.

Human Rights Watch backs this up.

Nice find, so now we can say there is no genocide. But I guess Georgia still deserves whats coming to it, unlike Saddam Husseins Iraq. The hypocrisy of the far left never ceases to amaze me. The far left would normally be all over figures from HRW when it concerns the US and Iraq(and Israel of course, lets not forget Israel). But I guess these reports of looting and burning of Georgian homes will be ignored by the far left, along with Russia massively exaggerating the casualty figures in S.O.

RDM_83

This is probably a bit soon after the even to be releasing reports of casualties and the Russians are certainly releasing what are most likely ludacris figures for propaganda purposes, but does anybody have reliable figures for the number of Georgian homes "looted and burnt" for all we know it could be far less than the number of SO's killed and homes destroyed by Georgian forces (thought that obviously does not excuse the act). Taken from the Guardian report "By day five of a conflict one expects that there is some kind of list of the dead and injured. But here there is no information. Nothing." 44 dead in the morgue doesn't mean 44 dead overall. According to this report, is that at present nobody knows so there's little use in throwing around figures till more reliable information deserves it.
(though clearly the Russian reports should be taken with a massive pinch of salt)

And yes I'd go out on a limb and say without sarcasm Georgia does deserve whats coming to it, unlike Saddam, the Georgian considered "democratic" (at least by most people,see previous post) therefore it can be considered that the government represents the Georgian people, it was the Georgian military that reacted with massive force against a region that should/could be considered independent (Georgia became independent in 1991, conflict with South Ossetia began immediatly after, there was a ceasefire in 1992 that precluded the use of force against each other, the Georgian actions, which included the killing of Russian peacekeepers (this was before Russian intervention and it important to remember these peacekeepers have a mandate to be there). The question is who determines sovereignty, regional population the central population, history etc as far as I can see Georgia has only been a cohesive country with South Ossetia an intergral part of it for far too short a period for the historic argument to be valid (as far as I can see only between 1918-1921).

What I mean by some Eastern European leaders being nationalistic hotheads is that some of there actions seem rather pointless apart from illustrating there anti-Russian credentials, e.g the Estonia war memorial incidents.

ejmaztec

This should probably be in the history forum but this archived page from the UK Times of 17th September 1924 has a familiar ring to it regarding Georgia. Completely off-topic, but there's also a mention of the 1924 goings-on on this island on the same page.


http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/viewArticle.arc?articleId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1924-09-17-10-006&pageId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1924-09-17-10&manualTopicId=false

Overheal

Bush has been getting breifed by the CIA today behind doors: no clear indication yet but theres whispers about whether or not America will get involved with any military action in Georgia.

President Bush's announcement yesterday that he is sending humanitarian aid to partially-occupied Georgia sounded innocent enough on one level.

But his decision to do it with military personnel and equipment is being widely interpreted as a provocative move, and one that for the first time since the Cold War risks a potential military confrontation between the U.S. and Russia.

Steven Lee Myers writes in the New York Times: "The decision to send the American military, even on a humanitarian mission, deepened the United States' commitment to Georgia and America's allies in the former Soviet sphere, just as Russia has been determined to reassert its control in the area.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/08/14/BL2008081401609_pf.html

meanwhile in Georgia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB_mwl9Uoaw

Seems russians are firing on georgian press. Although you have to wonder about the authenticity.

ejmaztec

Overheal wrote: »

Bush has been getting breifed by the CIA today behind doors: no clear indication yet but theres whispers about whether or not America will get involved with any military action in Georgia.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/08/14/BL2008081401609_pf.html

meanwhile in Georgia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB_mwl9Uoaw

Seems russians are firing on georgian press. Although you have to wonder about the authenticity.

I wonder what American hardware and intelligence the FSB has found, if any, on any of the over-run Georgian military bases.

SeanW

Well, the Ruskies have (indirectly, through their propoganda machine at RussiaToday) already accused the Ukrainians of selling high end anti-aircraft missile systems to the Georgian military. So whether they find any or not will make no difference, RT will, if the Kremlin wants it to, report that they "found" some such hardware.

Anyways fair dues to the Americans for sending military personnel to Georgia in any form. It's about time someone had the balls to do it.