Russia ''invades'' Georgia

magick

why? the georgians were the ones who started this mess

magick

magick wrote: »

why? the georgians were the ones who started this mess

Its alleged that the South Ossetians were shelling Georgian villages in South Ossetian and the Georgians took the bait. bad move.

However Georgians had been kicked out of both rebel regions after the breakup of the Soviet Union in large numbers, numbers so large that they changed who made up the majority of the population!

Russia has been proven to consistently lie during this whole affair if you have been following it. Russia media is controlled by the Kremlin and therefore spews propaganda.

Check out the entire thread and you will see the Russian grounds for the invasion were false and merely an excuse.

This small country is the site of a world changing event. This will shape world politics for a long time. Hopefully not a new cold or hot war.

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Its alleged that the South Ossetians were shelling Georgian villages in South Ossetian and the Georgians took the bait. bad move.

It is also alledged that Georgians crushed babies heads with tanks.
There has been no evidence though. So don't go round accusing Russia based on accusations.

However Georgians had been kicked out of both rebel regions after the breakup of the Soviet Union in large numbers, numbers so large that they changed who made up the majority of the population!

This is the second time you have said this without any follow up. Prove it.

Russia has been proven to consistently lie during this whole affair if you have been following it. Russia media is controlled by the Kremlin and therefore spews propaganda.

What lies?

Check out the entire thread and you will see the Russian grounds for the invasion were false and merely an excuse.

Like what?:rolleyes:

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote: »

It is also alledged that Georgians crushed babies heads with tanks.
There has been no evidence though. So don't go round accusing Russia based on accusations.

by your logic Russia invaded Georgia based on accusations

Poblachtach wrote: »

This is the second time you have said this without any follow up. Prove it.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf

Poblachtach wrote: »

What lies?

Poblachtach wrote: »

Like what?:rolleyes:

Twice you answer with questions, they lies about being in Georgia, they lied about the 2,000 dead in the first night. But I dont expect you to change your mind your not up for a proper debate

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

by your logic Russia invaded Georgia based on accusations

Whatever your logic is and whatever my logic is not the point. You're basing your opinion on supposed incidents.

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf

Can you tell me where in the 60 pages you refer to is the proof of ''Georgians being kicked out''?

As well as answering my other questions which you avoided. I'll re-enter them for you.

Russia has been proven to consistently lie during this whole affair if you have been following it. Russia media is controlled by the Kremlin and therefore spews propaganda.

What lies?

Check out the entire thread and you will see the Russian grounds for the invasion were false and merely an excuse.

Like what?:rolleyes:

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote: »

What lies?


Like what?:rolleyes:

Nice to see the republican rouge tinted glasses still work in the 21st century.
Ignore answers you don't like and the net worth of your posts will continue to fall.
Your state of denial and almost praise for [Sarcasm] that bastion of democracy Russia [/Sarcasm] reminds me of Comical Ali.

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice to see the republican rouge tinted glasses still work in the 21st century.
Ignore answers you don't like and the net worth of your posts will continue to fall.
Your state of denial and almost praise for [Sarcasm] that bastion of democracy Russia [/Sarcasm] reminds me of Comical Ali.

If you have any opinions on my personality or political persuasion keep them to yourself. I, or anybody else I'm sure, doesn't want to hear them. We (I assume) are here to talk about the events in Georgia. Lets talk about them. My questions you quoted are totally legitimate. I frankly don't care what you think of me.

But you ignore answers and references to the rest of this thread.
That suggests 2 things.
(1) you don't want to discuss the topic and (2) you come here with philosophical baggage to peddle rather than to discuss the topic.

Both of those are relevant observations to the topic.

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

But you ignore answers and references to the rest of this thread.

I haven't been able to follow the whole thread, obviously, but if someone has said something to me which I appeared to have ignored or missed, please point them out to me, and I will address them.

That suggests 2 things.
(1) you don't want to discuss the topic and (2) you come here with philosophical baggage to peddle rather than to discuss the topic.

Or perhaps I simply didnt' see them?

You didn't see posts on the same page you are replying on?
If thats the case,you either think the thread readers are fools or you are deliberately obfuscating.

If it's an attempt at obfuscation it's a poor attempt as it assumes the reader is a fool.

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

You didn't see posts on the same page you are replying on?
If thats the case,you either think the thread readers are fools or you are deliberately obfuscating.

If it's an attempt at obfuscation it's a poor attempt as it assumes the reader is a fool.

This is ludicrious. Three posts starting with a personality analysis. Debate the topic or nothing.

I've called you on your obfuscation.
You've ignored answers to questions and fired up meaningless questions in an attempt at obfuscation.
It's a bit rich in that case for you to ask me to debate with you.
I'll debate with anyone else in this thread as everyone else is participating as opposed to obfuscating.

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

I've called you on your obfuscation.
You've ignored answers to questions and fired up meaningless questions in an attempt at obfuscation.
It's a bit rich in that case for you to ask me to debate with you.
I'll debate with anyone else in this thread as everyone else is participating as opposed to obfuscating.

That is not my intention. I have seen what I believe to be distortion of whats going on. There have been allegations made and I have simply asked for proof. If I have broken the rules I will happily speak to a Moderator. But I don't care for people coming in analysing my personality and politics without even debating the topic. It's laughable. If you believe I am intentionally breaking the rules you report my post, you don't come onto a thread and wreck it.

my mind boggles why you as a hard left poster even bother trying to defend Russia when most of it's population live in absolute poverty and at the same time putin and his friends enrich themselves more and more with it's resources via gas prom etc...

There is news video of russian troops in poti on bbc news tonight while russians say they are not there?
Russia spouted several times yesterday,they had left Georgia when in fact all news bulletins showed video of them on the road to tblisi.

HRW are on the ground withnessing SO irregulars supported by Russian so called peace keepers burning Georgian people out of their homes-also on the BBC tonight.
Comical ali stuff except it's serious because they are being imperialistic.

All pointed out to you already.
I know your posting style so I expect I'm wasting computer bytes repeating this.

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

my mind boggles why you as a hard left poster even bother trying to defend Russia when most of it's population live in absolute poverty and at the same time putin and his friends enrich themselves more and more with it's resources via gas prom etc...

There is news video of russian troops in poti on bbc news tonight while russians say they are not there?
Russia spouted several times yesterday,they had left Georgia when in fact all news bulletins showed video of them on the road to tblisi.

HRW are on the ground withnessing SO irregulars supported by Russian so called peace keepers burning Georgian people out of their homes-also on the BBC tonight.
Cmical ali stuff except it's serious because they are being imperialistic.

All pointed out to you already.
I know your posting style so I expect I'm wasting computer bytes repeating this.

None of this has been even said to me, unless I have missed it. Do show me where it was said to me. I still don't care for your little rant/analysis of my personality at the begining, but how and ever.

my mind boggles why you as a hard left poster even bother trying to defend Russia when most of it's population live in absolute poverty and at the same time putin and his friends enrich themselves more and more with it's resources via gas prom etc...

I am not hard left, another silly assumption you have made on my personality. You don't know me. I am simply defending Russia because of the lies and general accusations that have come from western media and indeed members of the forum here. I don't care for such distortion of facts, so I have a right to voice my concerns and opinion on this forum (Within the boundaries of the rules). I don't believe Putin is enriching himself with resources via gas prom. I am assuming you are referring to making money off the back of it, rather than somehow stockpiling gas for his personal profit. Either way, I don't believe either, untill I see evidence. Generally when someone makes an accusation, the onus is on them to provide evidence. So until then.

There is news video of russian troops in poti on bbc news tonight while russians say they are not there?

I haven't seen the video sir, so I shouldn't comment. And I haven't actually heard or seen the Russians denying they were/are there.

Russia spouted several times yesterday,they had left Georgia when in fact all news bulletins showed video of them on the road to tblisi.

I was watching the Commander of Russian forces today, he never said they had left Georgia. The ceasfire allows Russia to take steps it sees necessary to protecting their troops in South Ossetia. As for the road to Tblisi, are you suggesting they are heading there?

HRW are on the ground withnessing SO irregulars supported by Russian so called peace keepers burning Georgian people out of their homes-also on the BBC tonight.
Cmical ali stuff except it's serious because they are being imperialistic.

Where have the HRW reported this? I believe there are some scumbags out doing bad deeds. And by that I mean actions that contribute to ethnic cleansing, such as burning people from their homes. This is bad. All I have heard so far is hearsay and nothing has been independently backed up. So I won't speculate on the basis of hearsay. Also, define SO Irregulars.

And please show me where this has been pointed out to me already, link me to the posts.

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote: »

None of this has been even said to me, unless I have missed it. Do show me where it was said to me. I still don't care for your little rant/analysis of my personality at the begining, but how and ever.

How anyone can attempt to discuss a topic without reading newspapers,listening to radio news bulletins or watching the tv news on such a big news item as this is beyond me.

I am not hard left, another silly assumption you have made on my personality. You don't know me. I am simply defending Russia because of the lies and general accusations that have come from western media and indeed members of the forum here. I don't care for such distortion of facts, so I have a right to voice my concerns and opinion on this forum (Within the boundaries of the rules). I don't believe Putin is enriching himself with resources via gas prom. I am assuming you are referring to making money off the back of it, rather than somehow stockpiling gas for his personal profit. Either way, I don't believe either, untill I see evidence. Generally when someone makes an accusation, the onus is on them to provide evidence. So until then.

I don't believe you don't believe any of that.

I haven't seen the video sir, so I shouldn't comment. And I haven't actually heard or seen the Russians denying they were/are there.

That news is so pervasive that common sense means I don't believe you there either.

I was watching the Commander of Russian forces today, he never said they had left Georgia. The ceasfire allows Russia to take steps it sees necessary to protecting their troops in South Ossetia. As for the road to Tblisi, are you suggesting they are heading there?

They were for a time yesterday when their masters were briefly denying they were even in georgia proper before they realised how silly this was with the worlds press there with cameras and reporters to say otherwise.

Where have the HRW reported this? I believe there are some scumbags out doing bad deeds. And by that I mean actions that contribute to ethnic cleansing, such as burning people from their homes. This is bad. All I have heard so far is hearsay and nothing has been independently backed up. So I won't speculate on the basis of hearsay. Also, define SO Irregulars.

They were reported on BBC's newsnight on wenesday night and thursday night.

And please show me where this has been pointed out to me already, link me to the posts.

It's all in this thread,you were asked to read it.
Nothing is being hid from you...
It wont take long to read the entire thread.

marco murphy

Deleted User wrote: »

How anyone can attempt to discuss a topic without reading newspapers,listening to radio news bulletins or watching the tv news on such a big news item as this is beyond me.

Answer the question... Where, on this thread, has this been pointed out to me. You have basically insisted that I have somehow ignored this being said to me, in this thread.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't believe you don't believe any of that.

That is truely astonishing. Is that as much as you have to say on the points I have made? And you accuse me of intentionally confusing the thread. Some cheek.

They were for a time yesterday when their masters were briefly denying they were even in georgia proper before they realised how silly this was with the worlds press there with cameras and reporters to say otherwise.

Have you a video or at least a news link, I believe that is false.

They were reported on BBC's newsnight on wenesday night and thursday night.

And?
...

I believe there are some scumbags out doing bad deeds. And by that I mean actions that contribute to ethnic cleansing, such as burning people from their homes. This is bad. All I have heard so far is hearsay and nothing has been independently backed up. So I won't speculate on the basis of hearsay. Also, define SO Irregulars.

It's all in this thread,you were asked to read it.
Nothing is being hid from you...
It wont take long to read the entire thread.

I have read the whole thread. I am not going to quote the whole thing.

But you ignore answers and references to the rest of this thread.
That suggests 2 things.
(1) you don't want to discuss the topic and (2) you come here with philosophical baggage to peddle rather than to discuss the topic.

Do you expect me to quote the whole thread? I picked up on what I believe to be false, I quoted it, and questioned it. I believe I was right, and had no bad intentions. If you think I broke the rules, report me. I won't be bullied off this thread.

Lucky I persisted, otherwise your hit and run personality analysis/insult attempt would have stood out like a sore thumb.

Nice to see the republican rouge tinted glasses still work in the 21st century.
Ignore answers you don't like and the net worth of your posts will continue to fall.
Your state of denial and almost praise for [Sarcasm] that bastion of democracy Russia [/Sarcasm] reminds me of Comical Ali.

I believe there is a large war of words surrounding this conflict. I am not going to take the word of individuals with an agenda or one sided view on this conflict. I often ask for evidence to back up accusations. Its easy to make an false accusation behind the veil of anonymity on a forum. I don't sit back and let people be convinced on the basis of lies. That is why I question what I believe to be false.

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote: »

Answer the question... Where, on this thread, has this been pointed out to me. You have basically insisted that I have somehow ignored this being said to me, in this thread.

Honestly? on the first page that I replied to you.
You were informed where references to Russian lies were on this thread.

That is truely astonishing. Is that as much as you have to say on the points I have made? And you accuse me of intentionally confusing the thread. Some cheek.

Well what do you expect me to think when you ignore stuff on the very page you are replying to and then repeat uninformed nonsense questions ad infinitum.

Have you a video or at least a news link, I believe that is false.

Clermont carn I understand is the television and radio transmitter that serves the louth area.Get yourself a set to be honest.

And?
...



I have read the whole thread. I am not going to quote the whole thing.



Do you expect me to quote the whole thread? I picked up on what I believe to be false, I quoted it, and questioned it. I believe I was right, and had no bad intentions. If you think I broke the rules, report me. I won't be bullied off this thread.

Lucky I persisted, otherwise your hit and run personality analysis/insult attempt would have stood out like a sore thumb.

Lol,you're in your infinite wisdom are basically saying that the BBC,ITN,RTE and several other news organisations are lying.
Now thats what sticks out like a thumb.

I believe there is a large war of words surrounding this conflict. I am not going to take the word of individuals with an agenda or one sided view on this conflict. I often ask for evidence to back up accusations. Its easy to make an false accusation behind the veil of anonymity on a forum. I don't sit back and let people be convinced on the basis of lies. That is why I question what I believe to be false.

Yeah RTE,the BBC and CNN and in fact all the western channels including the polish ones all have an agenda according to you :rolleyes: Next I expect you will be saying the footage they show every night is filmed in paramount :rolleyes:
As I said get yourself a television set and watch,it's on the news every night.
Try to avoid Russia today.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Its alleged that the South Ossetians were shelling Georgian villages in South Ossetian and the Georgians took the bait. bad move.

My understanding was that Georgia initiated their invasion within hours of agreeing a cease-fire with the SO's. If this is indeed true then they are hardly an innocent party in all of this....

RDM_83

"Yeah RTE,the BBC and CNN and in fact all the western channels including the polish ones all have an agenda according to you Next I expect you will be saying the footage they show every night is filmed in paramount"

Well since with the exception of RTE the channels are all located in NATO countries there _could_ be a case put forward for an anti-russian agenda especially for Poland (and Ireland can be in the worst light be viewed as facilitating US military actions and in the best being flexible with its neutrality and anyway I doubt they have any staff in South Ossetia) personally I don't think that the reporters themselves are in anyway biased but that it comes down to amount of footage time/ column inches that are presented by each view point.
Whats on the news every night is tanks rolling down roads and not much else (unless you mean things like the Georgian rocket batteries firing





oh ps this is a good article (from the biased media
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562611.stm

RDM_83

molloyjh wrote: »

My understanding was that Georgia initiated their invasion within hours of agreeing a cease-fire with the SO's. If this is indeed true then they are hardly an innocent party in all of this....

And in doing so killed 10 Russian peacekeepers in the capital but that points inconvenient when talking about the unprovoked Russian agression

sink

It seems no actors in this charade are innocent victims. Everyone had a part to play in order to reach their current prediciment.

1. Russia supplied weapons to the SO irregulars.
2. America & Europe supplied Georgia with weapons & training & diplomatic support.
3. SO irregulars attacked Georgia.
4. Georgia retaliated with shelling and motars.
5. Georgia & SO signed a ceasefire.
6. Georgia broke the ceasefire launched an all out assault that indiscrimitely targeted everyone in SO (Civillians & Russian peacekeeper).
7. Russia launched a counter attack and moved all the way into Georgia proper.
8. Russia signed a ceasfire and said it had withdrawn it's troops from Georgia proper.
9. Journalists & News cameras filmed Russian armour on the streets of Gori.
10. Russia stood by while SO irregulars looted & burned Georgian homes.
11. America backs Georgia 100% ignoring their wrong doings.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/journalists.shot/index.html?iref=24hours

gurramok

More Russian heroics http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/georgia.russia?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

The international organisation Human Rights Watch said today it had collected evidence of Russian warplanes using cluster bombs against civilian areas in Georgia, saying military aircraft killed at least 11 civilians and injured dozens of others in Gori and the village of Ruisi on Tuesday.

More news on the Russian invasion, guess the BBC are liars too?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562393.stm

A BBC correspondent in the Georgian port of Poti says Russian forces have taken control of its naval dockyard.

Richard Galpin says he has seen an armoured personnel carrier, troop-carrying trucks and Russian helicopters in the area and that the main mission seems to be to destroy or remove Georgian military and naval equipment.

There is also a major Russian military contingent further inland near the town of Senaki and Russian forces still control Gori, which lies some 15km (10 miles) from South Ossetia and on a key route to Tbilisi, our correspondent says.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/aug/15/georgia.russia?picture=336614119
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7561633.stm

molloyjh

sink wrote: »

It seems no actors in this charade are innocent victims. Everyone had a part to play in order to reach their current prediciment.

1. Russia supplied weapons to the SO irregulars.
2. America & Europe supplied Georgia with weapons & training & diplomatic support.
3. SO irregulars attacked Georgia.
4. Georgia retaliated with shelling and motars.
5. Georgia & SO signed a ceasefire.
6. Georgia broke the ceasefire launched an all out assault that indiscrimitely targeted everyone in SO (Civillians & Russian peacekeeper).
7. Russia launched a counter attack and moved all the way into Georgia proper.
8. Russia signed a ceasfire and said it had withdrawn it's troops from Georgia proper.
9. Journalists & News cameras filmed Russian armour on the streets of Gori.
10. Russia stood by while SO irregulars looted & burned Georgian homes.
11. America backs Georgia 100% ignoring their wrong doings.

Spot on sink. Yet still the notion that this is big bad Russia picking on poor little Georgia is the predominant one. The reality is they are both as bad as each other, Russia is just better at it!

http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=40443

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=40443

Deleted User wrote: »

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/journalists.shot/index.html?iref=24hours

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB_mwl9Uoaw

Russian military aircraft have deployed controversial and indiscriminately deadly cluster bombs on civilian areas of Georgia according to an international rights group

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4539186.ece

The Saint

Here's an article from Fairness and accuracy in Reporting on the coverage of the situation.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3596

Overheal

does anyone else find it thread spoiling to watch 2 posters go back and forth with a quote-reply-quote war?

Screwit, I've ignored you both. I suggest you don't practice politics after midnight :rolleyes:

I'm starting to wonder what might happen here. Iran is being backed by Russia, Russia's moving further south... If I didn't know any better you'd almost swear they were trying to clear a path between Iran and Russia. The second cold war nearly seems a foregone conclusion, if not in the Georgia conflict, then soon.