Russia ''invades'' Georgia

More big news yesterday. Poland agreed to let the US put Patriot ''defense'' missile batteries in Poland & they have agreed to help modernise the Polish army. If they aren't fighting words, I don't know what is!

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

More big news yesterday. Poland agreed to let the US put Patriot ''defense'' missile batteries in Poland & they have agreed to help modernise the Polish army. If they aren't fighting words, I don't know what is!

I guess the Polish aren't ready to bend over backwards trying to appease Russia. Maybe the Eastern Europeans know something the far left in Europe and America don't?

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I guess the Polish aren't ready to bend over backwards trying to appease Russia. Maybe the Eastern Europeans know something the far left in Europe and America don't?

I presume they do and that's what suprises me. I wouldn't put my eggs in America's basket.

RedPlanet

The agreement to put missile batteries in Poland goes back a bit.
It's most ridiculous to hear the posturing of the Bush regime about Russia "intimidating" other countries, not respecting soveriegnty and international law.
Pot Kettle?
And the media, doing their bit as mouthpieces for the Pentagon, don't bother to take issue with the blinding double standards here.
ANyway, the USA can huff and can puff, but can do little else.
I doubt very much Georgia or the Ukraine get into NATO now.
The neocon project is in tatters.

sink

The Poles are in a lot safer position than the Georgians. As an EU and a NATO member there is no risk of Russia using any military force against them. Russia will just pile on economic pressure by banning Polish goods and maybe cutting gas supplies.

RedPlanet

Russia is saying the "missile shield" is aimed at them.
However the agreement between Poland and the US or Nato has nothing to do with the Georgian conflict.

Tusk said that the U.S. met the key Polish demands "concerning the permanent presence of Patriots, missiles that will be able to effectively protect our territory."

"The Americans have accepted these postulates," he said on TVN24, an all-news channel.

The deal was reached after more than 18 months of back-and-forth, often terse, negotiations

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hdNtXPW9-1UZEmhgLC5VZ3dDa25wD92I8CI81

Kama

'Missile shield' is an oxymoron, like 'missile defence'. Its yet another example of military language dressing offensive weapons in a protective-sounding name. US missiles in Poland aren't exactly aimed at the 'terraists'.

That negotiations took place prior doesn't make it unconnected, not in a geopolitical sense anyway. Missiles in Poland and Georgia were both about 'containment'. The US didn't like missiles in Cuba; Russia doesn't want em too near either, unsurprisingly.

Putin went on record after Kosovo that S. Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria would be affected. The reflexive implications of Western reconfiguration of basic international customs like, oh, territorial sovereignty, are coming home to roost.

wes

Kama wrote: »

Putin went on record after Kosovo that S. Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria would be affected. The reflexive implications of Western reconfiguration of basic international customs like, oh, territorial sovereignty, are coming home to roost.

I am sure the Russians will be allowing Chechenya there independence any day now. Oh wait, there big hypocrites too. Btw, Russia has been supporting breakaway regions long before Kosova declared independence. So for them to cite that as a reason is rubbish, its an excuse. Also, they don't seem to be bothered by "territorial sovereignty" either, when it suits them.

Yes, the West is bad too, but lets not pretend Russia is any way shape or form better.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

I am sure the Russians will be allowing Chechenya there independence any day now. Oh wait, there big hypocrites too. Btw, Russia has been supporting breakaway regions long before Kosova declared independence. So for them to cite that as a reason is rubbish, its an excuse. Also, they don't seem to be bothered by "territorial sovereignty" either, when it suits them.

Yes, the West is bad too, but lets not pretend Russia is any way shape or form better.

turth of the matter is every country is a bastard when it suits them. All I can say is thank god for research into 'defensive' laser tech.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

turth of the matter is every country is a bastard when it suits them. All I can say is thank god for research into 'defensive' laser tech.

Yeah, this is very true.

There is a lot of blame to go around for this conflict imho,

Kama

Yeh, it gave us the CD player! God Bless the Military-Industrial Complex!

Gotta love lazorz. The old one got banned, it was for blinding folks. Some humorless sod said it was a 'war crime', and now development of lightsabres will be held back at least a decade. Damn.

truth of the matter is every country is a bastard when it suits them.

Yup, its called 'Realism': large-power 'diplomacy' isn't noted for its moral character; those tend to be added after, like the Taliban being the 'moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers' and so forth. Tho tbh, for the morally trite, most of us less powerful entities also tend to be bstrds when it suits us too. Its easy to be morally clean if you don't have the power to affect anything.

Was at an friends comedy show once, and geopolitics came up. All I remember was the line: 'well yes, I'd prefer to be in a world-system run by Finland, Canada, and New Zealand, but thats not going to happen.' Unfortunately, its liars and murderers, the Putins and Busches of this world, running the show, on what usually looks very like Great Game resource geopolitics. That or I played too much Civ and RTS growing up and its permanently warped my perceptions.

What's been disturbing for me is that seeing Putin talk about foreign policy, he seems a lot more rational, and a meelion times more intelligent, than the 'leader ov teh Free Wurld' waving flags at the Olympics. Which makes me feel a teensy bit worried, to say the least.

SeanW

After playing "Pipeline Politics" with the Ukrainians, presumably intimidating the Estonians into giving up territorial claims to waters Russia wants to build a pipeline through (which is what that whole Red Army statue controversy was likely to be REALLY all about), and completely decimating their miniscule Southern neighbor of Georgia, the Russian Bear is now turning his attention to Poland which they have now threatened with nuclear warfare. I had feared that Russia was, as well as backsliding towards Stalinism, getting somewhat militaristic. But FFS they're pushing it now.

At this point, the only question left in my mind is, are we prepared to let these psychos ravage Europe and Central Asia? Fair dues to the Americans for telling them what's what, and particularly to the Polish for refusing to be threatened and intimidated.

Denis Irwin

Anybody else find it strange how quiet the anti war lobby( Boyd Barret, Patricia McKenna etc...) have been over this but then again I shouldn't be really suprised as their silence really shows that the Anti War lobby are in reality just an anti American lobby. But you can bet your bottom dollar that if this was the Americans doing something like this in somewhere like Venezuela then they would be out on the streets protesting and calling for whomever was US President to be charged with war crimes etc...:rolleyes:

Flamed Diving

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Anybody else find it strange how quiet the anti war lobby( Boyd Barret, Patricia McKenna etc...) have been over this but then again I shouldn't be really suprised as their silence really shows that the Anti War lobby are in reality just an anti American lobby. But you can bet your bottom dollar that if this was the Americans doing something like this in somewhere like Venezuela then they would be out on the streets protesting etc...:rolleyes:

The stink of hypocrisy from the far-left could knock a horse, I tell you.

meathstevie

May I just throw in that the missile system in Poland is purely defensive and is in fact a still questionable ICBM or midrange missile interceptor system. What rattles the bear's cage is the fact that it undermines the old Cold War containment principle of MAD ( mutual assured destruction ), i.e. it sort of diminishes the potential of the Russian nuclear arsenal.
The stuff the Russian were going to install in Cuba in 1963 ( if I remember correctly ) were midrange missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads targeting the south eastern USA : offensive weaponry.

wes

Flamed Diving wrote: »

The stink of hypocrisy from the far-left could knock a horse, I tell you.

The same could be said of the right, cheer leading US invasions and moaning about those evil Russians right now.

dresden8

wes wrote: »

The same could be said of the right, cheer leading US invasions and moaning about those evil Russians right now.

Wes, you're forgetting that Americans have white hats and are therefore the good guys but the Russians have black hats and are therefore the bad guys.

Denis Irwin

I just want to clarify in relation to my previous post that I am by no means a supporter of Bush(quite the opposite in fact). I am just merely pointing out the double standards from Boyd Barrett, McKennna et all... in regards to the current situation in Georgia.

wes

Denis Irwin wrote: »

I just want to clarify in relation to my previous post that I am by no means a supporter of Bush(quite the opposite in fact). I am just merely pointing out the double standards from Boyd Barrett, McKennna et all... in regards to the current situation in Georgia.

Gonna have to disagree. Unlike the US misadventures, our government (or the EU), are in no way shape or form supporting it. I don't see them as being hypocrites, as the EU is already against this business, so why go out and protest it? No one is supporting Russia at all in this, there are no Russian planes taking off from Shannon. Its a very different situation and decrying these people as hypocrites, seems like people trying to score points.

Flamed Diving

wes wrote: »

The same could be said of the right, cheer leading US invasions and moaning about those evil Russians right now.

I agree, both sides are hypocritical idiots, as always.

And the world keeps on turning.

Denis Irwin

wes wrote: »

Gonna have to disagree. Unlike the US misadventures, our government (or the EU), are in no way shape or form supporting it. I don't see them as being hypocrites, as the EU is already against this business, so why go out and protest it? No one is supporting Russia at all in this, there are no Russian planes taking off from Shannon. Its a very different situation and decrying these people as hypocrites, seems like people trying to score points.

Oh I see what the Russians are doing is completely different because they aren't refuelling planes in Shannon and because the EU are against it there's no need to protest about that. :rolleyes:

Beelzebub

Guess what it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3406941.stm

wes

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Oh I see what the Russians are doing is completely different because they aren't refuelling planes in Shannon and because the EU are against it there's no need to protest about that. :rolleyes:

I take it your at this moment organizing a protest then?

Honestly, does anyone think Russia actually give a crap about a protest? The US for all its faults is a democracy, and can be influenced by protests. I highly doubt Putin is going to be influenced by this. Its a different situation and the conflict has been going on for a few days and happened very quickly. The US invasion of Iraq, was months in coming, given people ample time to organize protests before it.

Also, a lot of the Anti-war protests here center on Shannon being used by the US military, so yes, the fact Russia isn't using it make a world of difference. The fact out government aren't supporting it, doesn't mean people shouldn't protest, but maybe people feel that what the EU is doing is enough in this instance.

Also, to make things clear, I don't think the right hypocritical either btw, I am sure they believe US actions are for the greater good etc. Just that the same charge can be leveled against them as well.

nesf

The Economist's Cartoon sums it up quite well I think.

Frankie Lee

Bellzebubs link above sums it all up.

Overheal

meathstevie wrote: »

May I just throw in that the missile system in Poland is purely defensive and is in fact a still questionable ICBM or midrange missile interceptor system. What rattles the bear's cage is the fact that it undermines the old Cold War containment principle of MAD ( mutual assured destruction ), i.e. it sort of diminishes the potential of the Russian nuclear arsenal.
The stuff the Russian were going to install in Cuba in 1963 ( if I remember correctly ) were midrange missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads targeting the south eastern USA : offensive weaponry.

The recent disposal of that US sattelite back before the start of summer proved any of those missiles can be modified to enter orbit and release a high velocity payload though. Granted whether its worth the expense to convert this for a nuclear payload is another matter, but think about the idea: how many anti-missiles might be fake, and loaded with real nukes? Just like the ICMB MIRVs.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/02/the-weapon-that.html should be there

Kama wrote: »

Yeh, it gave us the CD player! God Bless the Military-Industrial Complex!

Gotta love lazorz. The old one got banned, it was for blinding folks. Some humorless sod said it was a 'war crime', and now development of lightsabres will be held back at least a decade. Damn.

I meant for shooting down ICMBs more so than anything else... but sure what the hell.

What's been disturbing for me is that seeing Putin talk about foreign policy, he seems a lot more rational, and a meelion times more intelligent, than the 'leader ov teh Free Wurld' waving flags at the Olympics. Which makes me feel a teensy bit worried, to say the least.

But George Bush Looked into his eyes! He looked into his eyes and saw he was a good man!

George W Bush wrote:

I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country.

Your damn right! What a dumbass :mad: I have to give McCain credit here:

John McCain wrote:

when I looked at Putin's eyes I saw 3 letters: K G B

irish_bob

if the situation involving russia continues to worsen , i believe it will influence the result of the american presdential election , i know who i would want to lead and i know who the american will elect

BelieveYourself

I'm not a fan of Russian. But what Fox News do to a 12 year old girl really sucks. Does US start news censorship?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

Kama

'Start' censorship? Ever hear of the Creel Commission?

Tbh I thought that was very liberal for Fox. Amazed she got the 30 secs.
Guess it is fair and balanced...

Agree IrishBob, should do great things for McCain's stumbling old campaign; never send a lawyer to do a soldiers job, etc etc. Plus he's always funny on SNL.

SkepticOne

irish_bob wrote: »

if the situation involving russia continues to worsen , i believe it will influence the result of the american presdential election , i know who i would want to lead and i know who the american will elect

Yes, McCain will get a major boost from this.