[PR] Cyclists Welcome Continuing Ban on Motorbikes Use of Bus Lanes

Victor

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Cyclists Welcome Continuing Ban on Motorbike Riders Use of Bus Lanes

Date: 28 July 2008. For immediate use.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign welcomes the Road Safety Authority's recent announcement that it cannot recommend the opening up of bus/cycle lanes to motorbike use.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign has never agreed with the use by some motor bike riders of bus/cycle lanes. A general and unwarranted assumption has been made by too many motor bike riders that it is permissible to ride in bus/cycle lanes and there seems to be no Garda action to enforce the existing legal ban. [see SI No. 182 of 1997. Section 32. (2).]

The Campaign now calls on the Garda to enforce Section 32 of the road traffic regulations No. 182 of 1997 where only omnibuses and bicycles are permitted legally to be in a bus/cycle lane. Taxis are permitted to use these lanes only while on business – that is with the meter operational and a fare present.

This also should mean that action will be taken against taxi drivers who are driving in a bus/cycle lane without a fare on board and the meter operational. A recent survey conducted by this Campaign determined that 56% of taxis in the bus/cycle lane in Pearse Street had no passenger present.

There are too many vehicles using bus/cycle lanes where the driver is overtaking cyclists too close (failing to leave a separation distance of a least 1.5 m) and too fast. This intimidates cyclists.

If this society is to meet its Kyoto transport greenhouse gas reduction targets more commuters are going to have to abandon their cars and take up cycling to work, college and school. Riders need to feel safe on urban roads and in bus/cycle lanes.

ENDS

lord lucan

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

faceman

What did the RSA base that decision on? It works in many other countries and cities.

Emissions from motorcycles are far lower than (most) buses and cars.
It is safer for motorcyclists to ride in a bus lane.
It prevents bikers from filtering on the wrong side of the road

With such a low percentage of commuters currently cycling, Ireland's atrocious weather and given that more and more people are moving to satellite towns, I fail to see how we are going to see any large increase in cyclists on the road.

Ironic that the Dublin Cycling Campaign is pushing for strict enforcement of bus lane use when there is no enforcement of traffic laws (which cyclists must obey) on the road for cyclists.

Then again, if you charge every cyclist who doesnt have lights on their bike and breaks red lights, that remove 90% of cyclists from the road...

John_C

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly.

.....[/hypocrisy]

cyclopath2001

Show-piece cycle facility outside of Dublin Tourism's HQ.

Zoney

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

Tbh a lot of motorists do not observe the rules of the road much better than the average cyclist. Was crossing a junction at green man today and a car sped down the road managing to get halfway through the junction before stopping.

It's a lot more serious too even the minor issues where motorists don't observe the rules - e.g. indicators (esp. at roundabouts and left turns!!). Not using them can mean a dead pedestrian or cyclist.

Steve

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Show-piece cycle facility outside of Dublin Tourism's HQ.

I fail to see how ^^^ that's relevant to motorbikes using bus lanes tbh.

Personally, I don't see why motorcyclists shouldn't be allowed use bus lanes - they don't take up much space on the road and it's a lot safer than them squeezing between lines of cars.
IMO it would be a fair use of otherwise empty road space.

Pete4779

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

That's damn right. A crazy cyclist could hit you and kill you, whereas you doing 40kph on a motorcycle would barely scratch a cyclist at all in a collision.

Same with pedestrians - they cross the road when there is a red man on the lights! FFS! I don't speed, but one of those lawbreaking jawwalkers could kill me if they hit while breaking the law. I on the other hand in my car wouldn't even dent a pedestrian's head if I rolled over it.

lord lucan

John_C wrote: »

.....[/hypocrisy]

i'm not holding myself up as some sort of irish road safety hero. i'm merely making the point that cyclists go on about what a rough time they have on our roads but a lot(not all) of them do their cause no favours by completely disregarding the rules of the road themselves. most bikers will admit to using buslanes,check a thread on the motorbike forum and you'll see many who've been waved on by the cops or the cops have turned a blind eye. as has been mentioned,if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road. there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

cyclopath2001

lord lucan wrote: »

if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road. there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

It's the theory of the 'one broken window'. Let one window in a neighbourhood remain unrepaired and pretty soon the whole place goes bad.

As my picture illustrates, there's a very laissez-faire attitude to the law in general, lots of 'Irish solutions' where laws are passed and then selectively enforced according to unwritten rules. If you look over in 'motoring', you'll see that so-called 'petrol heads' are in engaged in a campaign of civil disobedience against speed limits they find inconvenient, cheered on by other posters pretending to be Gardai.

By all means, fine cyclists and motorists for failing to stop on amber, ditto for no lights at night, speeding or obstruction. It's time this country took itself and its laws seriously.

As for motorcyclists, I'd be happy enough if they stayed out of the few cycle tracks that are actually passable. Cars are main problem, the amount of space wasted is absurd.

kdouglas

I agree with not having motorbikes in Cycle lans, they are for cycling, but motorbikes should definitely be allowed use bus lanes, much safer than filtering through a line of traffic.


I also used to cycle alot around Dublin city centre and can understand what it's like to be a cyclist, I sometimes didn't stop at a red light, but only if the pedestrian light was green at a junction or it was safe for me to go straight and stay out of the way of traffic, i'd never go through if there was going to be other traffic crossing, that's just suicide.
The main reason for doing this was simply to keep moving, on a bike or in a car, getting moving again is as simple as opening the throttle/pressing the accelerator, when stopping on a push bike, it wastes alot of energy to have to stop and get moving again.

penexpers

lord lucan wrote: »

i'm not holding myself up as some sort of irish road safety hero. i'm merely making the point that cyclists go on about what a rough time they have on our roads but a lot(not all) of them do their cause no favours by completely disregarding the rules of the road themselves. most bikers will admit to using buslanes,check a thread on the motorbike forum and you'll see many who've been waved on by the cops or the cops have turned a blind eye. as has been mentioned,if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road. there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

bauderline

It would be my experience that most laws which are not enforced are either unenforcable or just plain dumb.

P.

Hotblack Desiato

penexpers wrote: »

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

No. I've never used a cycle lane (i.e. off road, or with continuous white line) and have never seen a motorcycle using an off-road cycle lane.

'Cycle lanes' with broken white lines can be legally used by all traffic. Yes, yes, I know.

The subject of this thread is not cycle lanes, but bus lanes.

How on earth cyclists can be OK with having buses fly past them with millimetres to spare, craxy taxi antics, but give out about motorcycles (far narrower and m/c riders appreciate the dynamics and risks of riding a two wheeled vehicle, cagers don't) beats the hell out of me.

Idiotic announcements like this one erode what little credibility the Dublin Cycling Campaign has left.

Any cyclist I've spoken with has no problem with bikes in bus lanes, but all sorts of stories about buses and taxis. I've seen Dublin Buses run cyclists off the road FFS.

murphaph

penexpers wrote: »

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

I would admit to using a bus lane, not a cycle lane unless it's one with dashed lines "when it suits me" however is all the time because so many car drivers simply don't see me so it's safer for me to stay in the bus lane when/where possible. I make sure I give cyclists a wide berth, always signalling as I pass them as I consider them just as vulnerable on the road as myself. I always make sure not to hinder a bus in a bus lane in any way and beyond that I can't see what harm it is if it's a much safer alternative to mixing with blind car drivers.

I often see bicycles using bus lanes even where there's a dedicated 'high quality' cycle track just to the left. I don't moan about it-I understand the cyclists don't like the way off road cycle tracks invariably have multiple give ways at every bus stop and junction so they prefer the buslane.

Bikers and cyclists have much more in common than in difference.

murphaph

ninja900 wrote: »

No. I've never used a cycle lane (i.e. off road, or with continuous white line) and have never seen a motorcycle using an off-road cycle lane.

'Cycle lanes' with broken white lines can be legally used by all traffic. Yes, yes, I know.

The subject of this thread is not cycle lanes, but bus lanes.

How on earth cyclists can be OK with having buses fly past them with millimetres to spare, craxy taxi antics, but give out about motorcycles (far narrower and m/c riders appreciate the dynamics and risks of riding a two wheeled vehicle, cagers don't) beats the hell out of me.

Idiotic announcements like this one erode what little credibility the Dublin Cycling Campaign has left.

Any cyclist I've spoken with has no problem with bikes in bus lanes, but all sorts of stories about buses and taxis. I've seen Dublin Buses run cyclists off the road FFS.

Exactly-bikers can give a wide berth to cyclists whereas buses and taxis simply push past with inches between them and the cyclist. It does make the Dublin Cycling Campaign look rather silly.

Quint

I think the reason for this ban is because politicions and DTA want everyone cycling and on public transport. For some reason they discourage motorcycles even though they cut congestion. A spokesman for dublin transport authority on the The Right Hook a while back actually said 1 motorcycle takes up the same space as 1 car on the road!
It was proven in England that it's far safer for bikers to use buslanes, I know a lot of cyclists and they have no problem with it, I didn't when I cycled. I don't know who this Dublin Cycling Campaign is, but it doesn't represent me or any cyclist I know.

markpb

I've been an (inactive) member of DCC for a few years and I fully support their work but I completely disagree with them on this policy. I've no problem with *courteous* bikers in the bus lane and, if they're careful, I don't even care about them using the bike lane if the traffic is backed up.

Duzzie

penexpers wrote: »

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

I am a motorcyclist and I never use cycle tracks. When I am riding and have the option of filtering or using a cycle lane, I will always filter.

As others have said, the vast majority of bikers who do use bus lanes give cyclists a wide berth. After all we are as vulnerable, an infact more so than cyclists.

Cyclists are under very little threat from Motorcycles, they are much more vulnerable to being hit by cars, taxis and busses. It is a fact that your average motorcyclist is alot more aware of what is going on around them than your average car driver.

The safety benifits of motorcyclists using bus lanes has been very well demonstrated in trials in the UK and in the rest of Europe. Cyclists do have an argument to make on a number of issues but opposing motorcycles in bus is not one of them. Motorcylists show cyclists a lot more respect than most car drivers and tend to give them plenty of space.

jimmycrackcorm

I've taken up cycling, I have no problem with bikers in the bus lane as I think they are more vulnerable to traffic conditions and are consequently more aware of the dangers to cyclists themselves. I too would prefer being overtaken by a motorbike than by a bus or taxi.

monument

If motorcyclists want to be arguing for use of the bus lanes, fine.

But could some of you cut out the anti-cycling bull****, and keep your non-factual nonsense about cycling to your self? Please and thank you.

Just to be clear, I am bit bewildered by the Dublin Cycling Campaign statement. But I'd imagine it is taken from the point of view of not wanting more traffic in the bus lanes when trying to promote cycling while there is no curb-separated cycling lanes around the city.

faceman wrote: »

With such a low percentage of commuters currently cycling, Ireland's atrocious weather and given that more and more people are moving to satellite towns, I fail to see how we are going to see any large increase in cyclists on the road.

Dublin City Council reported a 17 percent increase in cycling in the last year. Is that large enough? And more and more people are also living in apartments and higher density developments than ever before.

"Ireland's atrocious weather"??? Dublin's weather is close to the weather in Copenhagen, where there is a high rate of cycling.

faceman wrote: »

Ironic that the Dublin Cycling Campaign is pushing for strict enforcement of bus lane use when there is no enforcement of traffic laws (which cyclists must obey) on the road for cyclists.

Sorry, but are the DCC advocating for cyclists to be allowed to break the law? If not, I can't see your point.

Maybe you're try to go along the lines of "all cyclists break the law", so, it's ironic? Because with the reputation motorcyclists have, that would be quite ironic.

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

You have to be taking the piss?

faceman wrote: »

Then again, if you charge every cyclist who doesnt have lights on their bike and breaks red lights, that remove 90% of cyclists from the road...

lord lucan wrote: »

...if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road.

I'd very much so welcome police enforcement on cyclists without lights... but what do the two of you mean by there be fewer bikes on the road?

Bike lights don't cost that much to get, but what could you two mean anyway? Are the cyclists going to be brought before a court and banned from the road?

lord lucan wrote: »

...there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

I would agree with you, but as cyclopath2001 points out once there's one broken window, there'll be more. Even with traffic laws alone, it's why New York like zero tolerance works - it is the opposite and positive to the broke window theory.

Zebra3

ninja900 wrote: »

How on earth cyclists can be OK with having buses fly past them with millimetres to spare, craxy taxi antics, but give out about motorcycles (far narrower and m/c riders appreciate the dynamics and risks of riding a two wheeled vehicle, cagers don't) beats the hell out of me.

Idiotic announcements like this one erode what little credibility the Dublin Cycling Campaign has left.

Any cyclist I've spoken with has no problem with bikes in bus lanes, but all sorts of stories about buses and taxis. I've seen Dublin Buses run cyclists off the road FFS.

Totally agree with that. As a cyclist and a motor biker.

murphaph wrote: »

Bikers and cyclists have much more in common than in difference.

Yep, DCC are fighting the wrong war here.

cyclopath2001

monument wrote: »

Bike lights don't cost that much to get,

I think that cyclists could adapt and comply far more quickly to a stricter regime than motorists.

But to get back on topic, the reason why the issue of motorbikes in cycle tracks is related to motorbikes in bus lanes, is that once you let them into the bus lanes, they can then also use the cycle tracks with broken white line markings. With some motorbikes being the size of a small car, that's just not appropriate. I'm regularly overtaken by motorbikes, who then get stuck in front of me trying to go through gaps barely adequate for bicycles. Since the law is mostly not enforced, we can already see for ourselves what would happen if the law was changed.

As to Dublin Cycling Campaign, their heart's in the right place, but thyey don't pick the right battles to fight.

uberwolf

I can't understand why motorbikes cause a safety problem for cyclists relative to buses and taxi's. They have a greater appreciation, and don't squeeze past.

faceman

monument wrote: »

If motorcyclists want to be arguing for use of the bus lanes, fine.

But could some of you cut out the anti-cycling bull****, and keep your non-factual nonsense about cycling to your self? Please and thank you.

I aint attacked cyclists. i will attack dangerous habits and poor city planning.

wrote:

Dublin City Council reported a 17 percent increase in cycling in the last year. Is that large enough? And more and more people are also living in apartments and higher density developments than ever before.

How did they produce this data? I find it difficult to believe. Does it include suburbs where kids cycle to school

wrote:

"Ireland's atrocious weather"??? Dublin's weather is close to the weather in Copenhagen, where there is a high rate of cycling.

Yes but cycling promotion is Copenhagen is completely different.
There are dedicated cycle lanes which are often separate to the main road.
There are bicycle hire stands all over the city.
The city is relatively flat in terms of terrain.
Traffic rules are strictly enforced for cyclists.
Public transport has facilities for cyclists to bring their bike on.
Scooters are permitted to use cycle lanes

wrote:

Sorry, but are the DCC advocating for cyclists to be allowed to break the law? If not, I can't see your point.

Maybe you're try to go along the lines of "all cyclists break the law", so, it's ironic? Because with the reputation motorcyclists have, that would be quite ironic.

What do the DCC do to promote safe cycling? MAG Ireland do alot to promote safe motorcycling. Is it comparable?

What reputation do motorcyclists have?

wrote:

I'd very much so welcome police enforcement on cyclists without lights... but what do the two of you mean by there be fewer bikes on the road?

Bike lights don't cost that much to get, but what could you two mean anyway? Are the cyclists going to be brought before a court and banned from the road?

If cyclists were charged with breaking traffic laws there would be less cyclists on the road. So do we promote bicycle safety by brushing traffic laws aside for the most vulnerable road user????

cyclopath2001

uberwolf wrote: »

I can't understand why motorbikes cause a safety problem for cyclists relative to buses and taxi's. They have a greater appreciation, and don't squeeze past.

Actually, the Cycling Campaign did not say that motorbikes were a safety problem for cyclists.

My opinion is that they are a nuisance if they obstruct cyclists having overtaken a cyclist ,they stop in a cycle track because their vehicles are too big. Under the present overtaking law, you must not overtake, if to do so would cause inconvenience to another.

Personally, I'd agree to them being permitted in bus lanes, if they were not permitted to use any kind of cycle track and if the overtaking regulations were properly enforced.

What the Cycling Campaign said was "There are too many vehicles using bus/cycle lanes where the driver is overtaking cyclists too close (failing to leave a separation distance of a least 1.5 m) and too fast. This intimidates cyclists.. They referred specifically to taxis without passengers and I think I could also add private-hire buses and security vans to the list.

faceman wrote:

What reputation do motorcyclists have?

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

Red Alert

Motorcyclists, in my opinion, have more consideration for other motorists than cyclists do. No other road users apart from the cyclists routinely break traffic lights and hog the road for long stretches. Many don't check over their shoulder before starting off, yet more don't realise that a signal to turn left or right only shows intent and doesn't confer right of way.

cyclopath2001

Red Alert wrote: »

No other road users apart from the cyclists routinely break traffic lights

I don't deny cyclist ride through red lights, but what you say is not based on fact.

The rule is to stop on amber and before the stop line. Every day, I see a great many drivers failing to do stop at each and every traffic junction. Mostly cars don't break red lights because there is somebody stopped in front of them. On my route home is a right hand filter junction where traffic must wait for a dedicated geen light. Motorists routinely ignore the red, often cutting across a pedestrian crossing which is lit for pedestrians.

Red Alert wrote: »

and hog the road for long stretches.

Cars hog enormous amounts of roadspace.

Red Alert wrote: »

Many don't check over their shoulder before starting off, yet more don't realise that a signal to turn left or right only shows intent and doesn't confer right of way.

Many drivers don't know that when overtaking a vehicle in the same lane as themselves, they must give way to that vehicle, if it's turning.

If we adopted a zero tolerance policy on traffic offences, motorists would have the most to lose.

Red Alert

Cyclists routinely break lights outside of the 'changing' phase. For example, they think they can break pedestrian lights whilst pedestrians are crossing, they don't obey rules like 'straight ahead arrows'. There's a difference between someone running a red light when the lights change (because as a motorist you'll be vigilant for someone doing that just after a change) and blatantly disregarding the traffic signals as the clear majority of cyclists do.

Cars consume more road space, as they are physically bigger. Same goes for buses. What I mean by hogging road space is when a cyclist who could pull in and let a bus full of people by on a narrow road won't do it, and then the bus has to plod along at about 10 mph behind them.

I have constantly to make sudden allowances for dangerous road behaviour by cyclists.

Ste.phen

I have to agree with some of the other posters here, there are a HUGELY disproportionate number of cyclists that not only run red lights, but completely ignore them, along with other laws.
We need better enforcement for everyone; cars, cyclists and motorcycles. My own pet hates as a cyclist are:
Other cyclists *starting* to move off when the lights are red, and not going to change anytime soon
Cars using bus lanes they shouldn't be in, and beeping at me on my bike because they have to slow down to not kill me

faceman

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

So bar the speeding and illegal use of bus lanes, bikers are just like cyclists?

monument

faceman wrote: »

How did they produce this data? I find it difficult to believe. Does it include suburbs where kids cycle to school

It's from the Dublin City Traffic survey, recording the numbers entering the city between 7am and 10am.

faceman wrote: »

Yes but cycling promotion is Copenhagen is completely different.
There are dedicated cycle lanes which are often separate to the main road.
There are bicycle hire stands all over the city.
The city is relatively flat in terms of terrain.
Traffic rules are strictly enforced for cyclists.
Public transport has facilities for cyclists to bring their bike on.
Scooters are permitted to use cycle lanes

But you were talking about the weather - you said: "Ireland's atrocious weather". Now, you're moving on to another myth about flatness??? Dublin is also relatively flat for the most part. But there are other cities in Denmark which are not. The country's second city, Aarhus, was described to me by a source there as hilly. It also has high level of cycling.

Copenhagen's city bike rental - unlike Paris etc - isn't anything to be writing home about. There may be stands around the city, but the bikes are in very very short supply. Using normal rental is recommended if you go there.

And, yes there are kerb-separated cycling lanes and yes there is integration with their metro, and regional trains. But these aren't things that will happen over night. It's worth noting that Copenhagen hasn't always been a cycling wonderland - most of what is in place today was put in place in the last 20 to 30 years.

faceman wrote: »

What reputation do motorcyclists have?

Motorcyclists have a very bad reputation. One that I'd say they all do not all deserve. But funny enough you lot seam to be ok with tarnishing another group of road users with a thick brush.

faceman wrote: »

If cyclists were charged with breaking traffic laws there would be less cyclists on the road. So do we promote bicycle safety by brushing traffic laws aside for the most vulnerable road user????

Your first sentence there is flawed logic, people are not put off the road for breaking any traffic laws. They normally have to be acting recklessly.

Red Alert wrote: »

Motorcyclists, in my opinion, have more consideration for other motorists than cyclists do. No other road users apart from the cyclists routinely break traffic lights...

30 mins at a Dublin junction... http://www.cianginty.com/2008/02/road-safety-yea.html

The city centre is not much better. Cars are always breaking lights etc - and it's far worse when they do.

Igy wrote: »

I have to agree with some of the other posters here, there are a HUGELY disproportionate number of cyclists that not only run red lights, but completely ignore them, along with other laws.

What exactly is a "HUGELY disproportionate number" - 40%? 50%? More?

More importantly how many are acting recklessly?

faceman wrote: »

cyclopath2001 wrote:

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

So bar the speeding and illegal use of bus lanes, bikers are just like cyclists?

No.

Cyclists don't weave thought traffic at high speed, there is not a high injury and fatality rate for cyclists, cyclists are not known for illegal overtaking, and parking a bicycle on a footpath is not illegal.

But, even if it was only speed alone, motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves.

Zebra3

monument wrote: »

But you were talking about the weather - you said: "Ireland's atrocious weather". Now, you're moving on to another myth about flatness??? Dublin is also relatively flat for the most part. But there are other cities in Denmark which are not. The country's second city, Aarhus, was described to me by a source there as hilly. It also has high level of cycling.

Myth about flatness? You've obviously never been to Copenhagen.

Hotblack Desiato

monument wrote: »

Cyclists don't weave thought traffic at high speed

This is nonsense although frequently claimed by car drivers.
When they are stuck or moving very slowly, something going past at 10mph faster than them appears a lot quicker than it is. Factor in their usual total lack of rear observation

there is not a high injury and fatality rate for cyclists

The casualty rate per km for cyclists is actually higher than for motorcyclists.

cyclists are not known for illegal overtaking

Are you implying that motorcyclists are? Filtering is not illegal.

and parking a bicycle on a footpath is not illegal.

AFAIK it is illegal to park a bicycle on a footpath except at a designated place.
Whatever about the inadequate provision of facilities for cyclists, they provide almost nowhere in Dublin city centre where a motorcycle can be parked legally.

But, even if it was only speed alone, motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves.

So it's ok if cyclists break the law? No. I'm a vulnerable road user (motorcyclist) and cyclists who ride recklessly put me at risk. Motorcyclists have been killed crashing into, or attempting to avoid, cyclists who broke red lights.

monument

Zebra3 wrote: »

Myth about flatness? You've obviously never been to Copenhagen.

I didn't mean a myth about Copenhagen, but when it is used as an example you'll nearly always have another person saying "but it's flat". Anyway, my point is, I'm told Denmark's second city is hilly and still has high numbers of cycling. For the record I have been to Copenhagen.

ninja900 wrote: »

The casualty rate per km for cyclists is actually higher than for motorcyclists.

I can't find casualty rate per km for cyclists and motorcyclists in Ireland, but I found this from the RSA...

Vulnerable Road Users 1
Vulnerable road users are pedestrians, motor cyclists, cyclists, young children and older people.

• 6 out of 10 of those who have died on our roads in the last six years are vulnerable road users
• 2 out of 10 are pedestrians
• 1 out of 10 is a motor cyclist
• 1 out of 30 is a cyclist

Vehicle speed is the primary contributor to these fatalities.

At 60 km/h 9 out of 10 pedestrians will be killed in an impact with a vehicle.

At 50 km/h 5 out of 10 pedestrians will be killed in an impact with a vehicle.

At 30 km/h 1 out of 10 pedestrians will be killed in an impact with a vehicle.

The same document here (PDF), has some interisting reading about cyclists and motorcyclists...

Motorcyclists

Motorcycles represent less than 2% of licensed vehicles but account for 12% of road deaths.

Between 1996 and 2003, almost 2,000 motorcyclists were killed or seriously injured. 19 This equates to a motorcycle fatality rate in Ireland of 1.5 per 1,000 licensed motorcycles, the highest in Europe. According to
OECD figures, a motorcyclist is 2 to 3 times more likely to be killed in Ireland than in other European countries 20.

In addition to the human cost, it is estimated that the economic cost of motorcycle crashes involving fatalities and injuries from 1996 to 2003 was over €1 billion.

Road collision data indicates that males in the 25 to 34 year age bracket are over-represented in motorcycle fatalities (34%) and injuries (27%).

The majority (65%) of motorcyclists are killed in single vehicle crashes outside built-up areas where it is more likely that high-speed and powerful bikes are major contributory factors.

However, the majority (75%) of bikers are injured as a result of collisions within towns and cities.

The majority of these crashes are the result of a collision involving a motorcycle and another vehicle. In the period 1996 to 2004, 81% of casualties were as a result of collisions with a car and 10% involved a collision with a goods vehicle.

Cyclists

Accounting for 3% of all road deaths, an average of 12 cyclists are killed and 29 seriously injured annually on Irish roads.

The groups most at risk are the very young and older cyclists. Almost 20% of cyclist fatalities are under 17 years of age with the 10 to 14 year age group being the most at risk. However, by far the most vulnerable cyclists on Irish roads are those over 55 who account for 36% of fatalities.

Most cyclist fatalities are the result of a collision between the cyclist and another road user, typically a car (47%) or a goods vehicle (36%).

59% of fatalities occur in rural areas while 85% of cyclist injuries happen inside built-up areas.

So, with cyclists those at most risk are comparable to those at most risk with walking. But with motorcyclists it's the fit and able and mostly in single vehicle crashes.

[EDIT:] Maybe I'm missing something here, so I'm open to correction. [end edit]

ninja900 wrote:

monument wrote:

faceman wrote:

cyclopath2001 wrote:

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

So bar the speeding and illegal use of bus lanes, bikers are just like cyclists?

No.

Cyclists don't weave thought traffic at high speed, there is not a high injury and fatality rate for cyclists, cyclists are not known for illegal overtaking, and parking a bicycle on a footpath is not illegal.

But, even if it was only speed alone, motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves.

Are you implying that motorcyclists are? Filtering is not illegal.

I'm not implying anything. I was replying to a thread of posts, as seen above.

ninja900 wrote:

AFAIK it is illegal to park a bicycle on a footpath except at a designated place.

Is it? Could you tell me under what law?

ninja900 wrote:

So it's ok if cyclists break the law? No. I'm a vulnerable road user (motorcyclist) and cyclists who ride recklessly put me at risk.

I never said it was ok for cyclists to brake the law, I said: "But, even if it was only speed alone [which separates cyclists from motorcyclists], motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves."

ninja900 wrote:

Motorcyclists have been killed crashing into, or attempting to avoid, cyclists who broke red lights.

In Ireland?... Any chance of backing that up?

Tarabuses

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

I am a bit puzzled by this thread since I regularly see motorbikes using the bus lane. In fact a motorcyclist colleague at work told me he was entitled to do this:rolleyes: I also see motorbikes using cycle lanes both with and without broken line markings. What ban

Victor

Guys, this has gone way off topic. The point being made is that there is already too much traffic in bus and cycle lanes and DCC are merely agreeing to the decision (by a group that included motorcyclists, but not pedal cyclists) to retain the ban. The point is also made, particularly about taxis.

DCC supports garda action against everyone who breaks the law. That said, some laws could do with updating.

A personal point of view, but the current status quo is useful - motorcyclists behave in bus lanes because they know they aren't meant to be there and the gardaí leave them alone once they don't over do it.

monument wrote: »

Is it? Could you tell me under what law?

A bicycle is a vehicle, it is illegal to park a vehicle on the footpath.

Tarabuses

Victor wrote: »

A personal point of view, but the current status quo is useful - motorcyclists behave in bus lanes because they know they aren't meant to be there and the gardaí leave them alone once they don't over do it.

Well that really takes the biscuit! I tried to bring the thread back on topic but I cannot accept that point of view. What is overdoing it? Driving in bus lanes to undertake the "obedient" traffic?

Quint

This is turning into a war between cyclists and motorcyclists! Both do plenty of illegal manouvers, i've no problem with cyclists breaking the lights, seems no cyclists has a problem with motorcycles in bus lanes so DCC are claiming this as a victory, presumably just to look good, it's definitely not a representation of cyclists!
Anyway, for congestion reasons, surely motorcycles should be encouraged into Dublin, like every other heavily congested city in the world?

cyclopath2001

Quint wrote: »

surely motorcycles should be encouraged into Dublin, like every other heavily congested city in the world?

Agreed in principle.

The main concern is the way motorcyclists get in the way of cyclists, especially in on-road cycle tracks. Some motorbikes are the size of a small car and just don't fit.

As the law stands at the moment they should not be in bus lanes, but they ignore the law and also invade cycle tracks which are inside bus lanes, using their speed and bulk to intimidate cyclists.

It's not clear if the people who've been abusing cyclists generally in this thread are motorcyclists, but if they are, they're going the wrong way about winning allies to have the law changed.

Quint

I don't think being friendly in a thread on boards will make a difference in getting the law changed. And after Gayo, MAG Ireland and tests that proved it's safer couldn't convince anyone to change the law, don't think it ever will! Motorcycles are rarely even considered as a form of transport by the DTA even though they're by far the best way of getting around the city. And the only allies needed is the police, the buslane thing has always been illegal but never enforced, I drove in the bus lane past police in glasnevin twice last week and there was no problem.
I drive in bicycle lanes too, but never once blocked a bicycle either. I know i'll never be stopped for that either.

faceman

monument wrote: »

Stuff...

I dont think Victor wants us to continue this discussion on this thread further, but I'll glady address your points in a new thread.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Some motorbikes are the size of a small car.

The fish that got away - "i swear Ma, it was THIS big"! I dont know any standard bikes that are that big??

We're getting into an "us vs them" argument now. Given that I ride a motorcycle, drive a car and occasionally cycle to work Im not sure which demograph i should fall into.

Rawr

I'm pro-cycling myself and I have to say that I have no problem with Motorcycles in the Bus-lane.

I see a lot of tarring with the same brush here in this thread...cyclists break the rules, motorcyclists are fast and dangerous etc...

It doesn't really help the argument, which I guess is - should Motorcycles share the Bus-lane with it's other users? Within the scope of that, my view is that, yes, Motorcycles should be allowed. I don't see them as any more dangerous to a cyclist as a huge double-decker coming up your arse.

There will be reckless motorcyclists, that's a given. In the same way that there will be reckless cyclists, motorists etc... But I prefer to think of a person as innocent until proven otherwise, and just because a person dons a helmet and mounts a 2-wheel motor, I don't automatically see them as a threat to one's life. (Although visions of a Mad-Max like road chase come to mind:D) Same goes for the Bus-Drivers in the lane, I don't automatically think that they are out to kill me with their bus.

I have seen speeding and reckless motorcyclists, revving their motors and booting down side-roads for various reasons, but I've also seen that in motorists, and various other things from show-boating cyclists messing around...it's a fact of life that there will be clowns around, where sane people observe the rules and know the reasons for them.

I recon that road manners are the responsibility of all road-users, regardless of what you are riding / driving. I don't like this taking of a certain type of road user and saying - 'You are all bad because....'

In the end, we're all just trying to get somewhere.

/hippie speech

cyclopath2001

faceman wrote: »

The fish that got away - "i swear Ma, it was THIS big"! I dont know any standard bikes that are that big??

I was not referring to 'standard' bikes. I encounter all kinds of motorbikes, some very big, trying to squeeze down a cycle track (in a bus lane) with an effective width of 1 metre, usually just after they have overtaken, cut in front of me and forced me to stop. Not only is that kind of overtaking illegal, but under present law, they shouldn't be in the bus lane anyway.

I think if you compare the width of some of the big touring motorbikes with a Fiat Cinqucento or a Smart Car, my statement will be found to be just a small exaggeration for humourous effect. Feel free to quote me some motorbike widths and models and we can have a look at the suitability of these for using on-road cycle tracks of less than 1.5 metres in effective width..

Bottom line is that if motorcyclists played nice and stayed out of cycle tracks, I might consider supporting the legalising of their use of the balance of a bus lane.

Victor

Rawr wrote: »

It doesn't really help the argument, which I guess is - should Motorcycles share the Bus-lane with it's other users? Within the scope of that, my view is that, yes, Motorcycles should be allowed. I don't see them as any more dangerous to a cyclist as a huge double-decker coming up your arse.

Actually, the double decker isn't as much a risk as one might think based on size. A huge problem for cyclists is people passing too close to the side - buses rarely do that*. If the bus behind is too big for the gap, there driver isn't going to try anything. This is why it is good for a cyclist to command the centre of the lane when there is a risk of inappropriate overtaking by other vehicles.


* There is a problem with buses pulling back into the left and boxing in cyclists agaisnt the kerb

Rawr

I agree with you Victor. That's why I made the comparison there between the Motorbike and the Double-Decker. I'm thinking that the danger is perceived to be greater than it really is.

Red Alert

I take issue with the word 'abusing cyclists' - the fact of the matter is that cyclists behave in a dreadful fashion and by virtue of not needing a license they can get away with breaking many laws. I'm not a motorcyclist, just a car driver to answer that poster.

Most motorcyclists I've come across are obedient of the law, and make safe decisions based on the road conditions at the time. Personally I'd have no problem legalising their entry into bus lanes.

As with anything, there's always the possibility for local arrangements in certain areas - such as a 'No Motorbikes' sign on a bus lane.

cyclopath2001

Red Alert wrote: »

I take issue with the word 'abusing cyclists' - the fact of the matter is that cyclists behave in a dreadful fashion and by virtue of not needing a license they can get away with breaking many laws. I'm not a motorcyclist, just a car driver to answer that poster.

But this is abuse. It's unbalanced and not based on fact. Motorists break far more regulations than cyclists. They do so more often and with more serious results. Cyclists can be and are penalised, with or without a driving license.

The above line of debate is a distraction from the practical issue of whether or not motorcyclists pose a nuisance or hazard to cyclists in bus lanes and the cycle tracks within them.

murphaph

What about a compromise? On buslanes with parallel off street cycle lanes/tracks make it compulsory for cyclists to use these and allow motorbikes in the bus lane to try to keep the bikers safe.

On roads with no cycle lane/track but with a buslane, only allow buses and cyclists in the bus lane.

(I'm against taxis being allowed to use buslanes at any time as I fail to see the benefit to society of doing so. It's public transport in only the most technical sense!)

vektarman

I'm open to correction on this but aren't there some bus lanes in Dublin open to motorcyclists, eg. Blackhall place (southbound), South great Georges street when turning right on to Dame street, North Frederick street and Parnell street east?

murphaph

vektarman wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this but aren't there some bus lanes in Dublin open to motorcyclists, eg. Blackhall place (southbound), South great Georges street when turning right on to Dame street, North Frederick street and Parnell street east?

I think some of them are actually "no entries" with the above exceptions. There was one on Pearse Street anyway which was like this. It had a manky non-tsm compliant exception plate stuck on it as an afterthought.